Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Underway]

too true.

The only ones who truly appreciate the topped up pension are those like me who are collecting it. For the rest it is too far in the future to worry over

As long as they don't change it for everyone who's vested at this point. I'm to far into my retirement planning to have it all change suddenly!

 

[RangerRay]

Interestingly, I am reading that the federal liberals are seriously looking into both of the European 6th Gen fighter programs (with the British one being favored), would be a smart buy in for industry if we can get on as a partner with the Brits, Italians, and Japanese.

That would be great as long as we don’t reset the clock on out fighter replacement to 0:00. I don’t know if it’s 16, 65 or 88, I’m not a fighter expert so that’s for other people to decide, but I believe we need to complete at least a partial order of F-35s. I’m afraid that polling will reset it to 0:00.

 

[ytz]

That is not second line. Second line is part of and moves with the formation. When you propose civilization of second line, you are proposing civilization of people who need to be warfighters in the land environment.

It is also a term that comes from the land environment: TERMIUM Plus®

Don’t civilianize this.

We use it slightly differently in blue:

1st line - Squadron level servicing and snags
2nd line - Usually aircraft maintenance squadron. Doesn't deploy.
3rd line - Depot, contractor or specialized units.

If 2nd line is moving for you guys, understandable why it can't be civilianized. This isn't the same in blue and our AMS is basically a place to force generate trained techs for 1st line. Debatable whether the whole squadron needs to be military.

We have lots of raw resources they not only want but the need. We also have lots in the Tech sector they want and need, surprisingly have failed to attract over the past number of years to go south of the border.

They aren't acting like they need anything from us. Their President has explicitly said they don't. Also, resources only give us leverage iff we are willing to weaponize them in a trade dispute. And there doesn't seem to be consensus on this in Canada. That's to put it mildly.

 

[ytz]

Yes, I'm sure that will be very nice when it's ready in 20-30 years from now. Meanwhile, our CF-18s are going to start falling out of the sky within the next decade.

Last F-35 delivery at 88 frames: 2032
If 70 frames: 2031

GCAP EIS: 2035

You may not know this, but Japan is quite firm on GCAP EIS because they are worried about China's growth in 5th gen capabilities. If they believe there will be substantial slippage, they may quit and go it alone.

A 5-7 year gap may be a worthwhile trade for 18 less F-35s, if the result is being on the leading edge of 6th gen, while showing the Americans our defence dollars aren't automatically going to them.

I'm not sure our training system is going to produce enough pilots and techs to operate 88 F-35s by 2032 efficiently and effectively. Cutting to 70 and then working on manning for a few years before starting a sixth Gen ramp wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

 

[ytz]

too true.

The only ones who truly appreciate the topped up pension are those like me who are collecting it. For the rest it is too far in the future to worry over

The problem is that money down the road doesn't solve anything. People need money now so that they can make that downpayment and stop paying rent. This would help them build equity. Larger pension means they arrive at retirement with less equity.

As long as they don't change it for everyone who's vested at this point. I'm to far into my retirement planning to have it all change suddenly!

Nobody is suggesting changing pensions. The suggestion is to create larger allowances in lieu of higher pay that would be pensionable.

 

[MilEME09]

That would be great as long as we don’t reset the clock on out fighter replacement to 0:00. I don’t know if it’s 16, 65 or 88, I’m not a fighter expert so that’s for other people to decide, but I believe we need to complete at least a partial order of F-35s. I’m afraid that polling will reset it to 0:00.

The Brit program wont even see production start until 2035, I am sure them, and the italians would get first dibs, and Japanese would build their own. I bet we would not see fruit for us until 2045 at the earliest. If we were smart and planned well we would be able to expand for a duel fighter fleet of F35 and Sixth Gen by then.

 

[ytz]

The Brit program wont even see production start until 2035, I am sure them, and the italians would get first dibs, and Japanese would build their own.

What's all this based on? Cause nothing I've read about the program lines up with this.

 

[MilEME09]

What's all this based on? Cause nothing I've read about the program lines up with this.

LAst mention about the production timeline was in 2023, prototype should fly in 2027

BRIEFER: Global Combat Air Program (GCAP) - Defense Security Monitor

The Global Combat Air Program (GCAP) is a multinational collaborative project aimed at producing a sixth-generation fighter aircraft by the United Kingdom, Italy, and Japan. GCAP is the merging result …

dsm.forecastinternational.com

 

[YZT580]

The problem is that money down the road doesn't solve anything. People need money now so that they can make that downpayment and stop paying rent. This would help them build equity. Larger pension means they arrive at retirement with less equity.



Nobody is suggesting changing pensions. The suggestion is to create larger allowances in lieu of higher pay that would be pensionable.

I know that but that isn't the point being made. That extra little bit isn't going to help much towards a down payment. When we bought our first home 10,000 was a huge amount to put down. We did it with 5000. Now you need upwards of 80,000 just for the deposit if I read the news correctly. Now where your bonus might be truly beneficial is as a signing bonus: say 10,000 after your first year.
An extra 200 a month sounds great and it is a wonderful thing to have but gaining an extra 100 that is on your pension pays off brilliantly when you start to collect. The 100 is only worth about 60 after taxes. The same hundred towards your pension is worth at least 30 after taxes and that 30 is indexed for life. With the way the COL has been in the last 10 years most people who went on full pension in 2010 are now taking home more than their maximum earnings.

 

[ytz]

LAst mention about the production timeline was in 2023, prototype should fly in 2027

BRIEFER: Global Combat Air Program (GCAP) - Defense Security Monitor

The Global Combat Air Program (GCAP) is a multinational collaborative project aimed at producing a sixth-generation fighter aircraft by the United Kingdom, Italy, and Japan. GCAP is the merging result …

dsm.forecastinternational.com

Which lines up with 2035 EIS.

 

[Underway]

Which lines up with 2035 EIS.

2035 is just Japan's hard deadline. Though I expect if it's going to go off with China its going to be way sooner than 10 years from now.

 

[OldSolduer]

We use it slightly differently in blue:

1st line - Squadron level servicing and snags
2nd line - Usually aircraft maintenance squadron. Doesn't deploy.
3rd line - Depot, contractor or specialized units.

If 2nd line is moving for you guys, understandable why it can't be civilianized. This isn't the same in blue and our AMS is basically a place to force generate trained techs for 1st line. Debatable whether the whole squadron needs to be military.

At least you speak a language I understand - 1st, second and third line..
IIRC 202 Paintshop was third line in the Army. Ooops I meant Workshop.

 

[Quirky]

1st line - Squadron level servicing and snags

I would go even deeper than just first line - any positions that don’t directly put tools on components, like your AMCROs, QMs, Tool Cribs, etc, move them into civilian occupations. Join as a maintenance technician, you do the job as a maintenance technician.

 

[ytz]

I would go even deeper than just first line - any positions that don’t directly put tools on components, like your AMCROs, QMs, Tool Cribs, etc, move them into civilian occupations. Join as a maintenance technician, you do the job as a maintenance technician.

I feel you. But, some of that needs to be deployable. On to a ship. Into the field. With the helos. Or even into a FOB for a transport or fighter Det.

 

[quadrapiper]

You could easily (relatively speaking) civilianize a variety of things.

You still need a robust CSS. But I agree that a lot of back office and domestic stuff could be done by civilians.

We use it slightly differently in blue:

1st line - Squadron level servicing and snags
2nd line - Usually aircraft maintenance squadron. Doesn't deploy.
3rd line - Depot, contractor or specialized units.

If 2nd line is moving for you guys, understandable why it can't be civilianized. This isn't the same in blue and our AMS is basically a place to force generate trained techs for 1st line. Debatable whether the whole squadron needs to be military.

Not sure how much civilianization is desirable until the "moving" support units are fully staffed, their static peers are fully staffed, and both are arranged in such a way that the moving units can pick up and deploy without affecting support for whoever is left behind.

Plus the entire CSS world having enough "shore" billets to provide lower-pressure higher-comfort postings.

The Brit program wont even see production start until 2035, I am sure them, and the italians would get first dibs, and Japanese would build their own. I bet we would not see fruit for us until 2045 at the earliest. If we were smart and planned well we would be able to expand for a duel fighter fleet of F35 and Sixth Gen by then.

Getting away from the CAF habit of buying something, running it to end of life, then popping over to Crappy Tire for duct tape, Gorilla Glue, and zap straps to keep it going for another decade or three, how long would a "balance of needs" fleet of Rafales actually last? Would there really be much left on the airframes by the time the 6th gen birds show up?

 

[Halifax Tar]

That is not second line. Second line is part of and moves with the formation. When you propose civilization of second line, you are proposing civilization of people who need to be warfighters in the land environment.

It is also a term that comes from the land environment: TERMIUM Plus®

Don’t civilianize this.


It is a CAF problem if poor financial literacy degrades readiness. But the institution knows this and there are support services and education available to ameliorate. More supports would not be a bad thing.

For us the 2nd line and back is where we get some semblance of work life balance. So we would need to keep some positions to provide a proper sea to shore ratio, and provide a depth of experience to properly grow and hone our people.

I would go even deeper than just first line - any positions that don’t directly put tools on components, like your AMCROs, QMs, Tool Cribs, etc, move them into civilian occupations. Join as a maintenance technician, you do the job as a maintenance technician.

How are you going to run your insitu theatre sustainment ? Admittedly, I have less than zero experience in RCAF sustainment so perhaps your requirements are different, I am willing to hear that out.

But I have done it a fair bit in Green and spent 80% of my career at it at sea and I can tell you both the RCN and CA need ingrained uniformed sustainment.

 

[ueo]

Umm polit

and surrender our sovereignty? that would be the first step towards trump trying to Annex us, saying europe is less aligned with our interests when the US unleashed a trade war on us is laughable. We have plenty of space, and labour we could set up a strong defense industrial base here.

Political will and can I make $$

 

[McG]

For us the 2nd line and back is where we get some semblance of work life balance. So we would need to keep some positions to provide a proper sea to shore ratio, and provide a depth of experience to properly grow and hone our people.

An AORs is second line. Maybe we should know our own doctrine before we leverage the language to propose what could or should be fully or partially civilianized.

 

[MilEME09]

Getting away from the CAF habit of buying something, running it to end of life, then popping over to Crappy Tire for duct tape, Gorilla Glue, and zap straps to keep it going for another decade or three, how long would a "balance of needs" fleet of Rafales actually last? Would there really be

Yeah if we could replace the 35 with a 6th gen in a reasonable time frame of 30 years or less that would be a benefit

 

[ytz]

Yeah if we could replace the 35 with a 6th gen in a reasonable time frame of 30 years or less that would be a benefit

To be clear. All current proposals of 6th gen purchases are not being aimed at replacing the F-35. They would presumably supplement a smaller F-35 fleet.