Haitian leaders must all agree before Canada would lead a potential military intervention, Trudeau says

U.S. has suggested Canada could lead a multinational force in Haiti

Dylan Robertson · The Canadian Press · Posted: Nov 20, 2022 1:27 PM ET

A potential Canadian military intervention in Haiti can't happen unless all political parties in the troubled nation agree to it, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Sunday.

Speaking from Tunisia on the final day of the two-day Francophonie summit, Trudeau announced $16.5 million to help stabilize Haiti, where gangs are strangling access to fuel and critical supplies amid a worsening cholera outbreak.

About half the money is going toward humanitarian aid, and some of the rest is intended to help weed out corruption and prosecute gender-based violence.

But Haiti's government has asked for an international military intervention to combat gangs who have strangled access to fuel and critical supplies in the middle of the outbreak.

The United States wants Canada to lead any military intervention.

Trudeau said Sunday that Canada is working with CARICOM, the organization of Caribbean governments, along with "various actors in Haiti from all different political parties" to get a consensus on how the international community can help.

"It is not enough for Haiti's government to ask for it," he said. "There needs to be a consensus across political parties in Haiti before we can move forward on more significant steps."

He did not rule out eventually establishing a Canadian military mission on the ground in Haiti.

"Canada is very open to playing an important role, but we must have a Haitian consensus," Trudeau said in French.

New sanctions on prominent former officials
A Global Affairs Canada assessment team sent to Haiti to establish some understanding of what is happening and what could help has already returned and provided a report at meetings Trudeau said he attended.

He said the response is complicated because many "political elites" and "oligarchs" in Haiti have used the country's humanitarian crises "to enrich themselves on the backs of the Haitian people."

"So that is why our approach now is not about doing what one political party or the government wants," Trudeau said. "It's calling for a level of consensus and coherence from all actors in Haiti to call for solutions that we can actually get behind and lead on as an international community."

On Saturday Canada expanded its economic sanctions freezing the Canadian assets of Haitian political elites to now include former president Michel Martelly and former prime ministers Laurent Lamothe and Jean-Henry Ceant.

Foreign Affairs Minister Melanie Joly accused the trio of helping gangs undermine Haiti's current government and called on international partners to follow Canada's lead.

"Our goal is to make sure that these people that are profiting from the violence, that are part of a corrupted system, are facing accountability," she said.

Haitian Foreign Affairs Minister Jean Victor Geneus said the new sanctions put real consequences on those causing a "nightmare" in his country.

"These sanctions will have a dissuasive impact," he said in French, while seated between Trudeau and Joly.

Geneus said gangs are raping women and girls, preventing children from attending school and not letting sick people through roadblocks when they seek medical treatment. That means refugees are leaving for neighbouring islands.

"If the necessary conditions for safety are not re-established in a fast and urgent manner, a humanitarian catastrophe is possible in Haiti," he said in French.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-haiti-intervention-sanctions-1.6658254

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I think you meant refugees, but overall yes.



Whatcha talking about...... /s

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One demographic doesn't decide an overall trend.

 

[KevinB]

I'll take the flak and say the uncomfortable.

We don't need any immigrants period.

The Native North Americans would have been a big fan of your concept 200 years ago...

Process the ones that have applied legally, but close off applications.

Canada (like the US) has the need of immigrants, just not ones making their new found home unstable.

Make a concerted effort to find and deport all so called students who have overstayed their visas. Find and deport every person who came here illegally, through places like Roxham Road. The US will have to swallow some pride and forget bullying about any we return there as the last safe country. They can grab and deport them as we hand them over. We need to make things almost intolerable for those here illegally. A ban on coming here without a visa. No welfare, no health care, no shelter. We have to get back to where things were by placing Canadians first.

Make Canada Great Again?

Once we are, then we can start allowing legal immigration, with stringent rules this time. If you wish to come here, you need to have something to offer Canada. We have enough cab drivers and Amazon delivery people. We have to stop taking in people just because they have problems in their own country. Why are we taking in people from Gaza when not a single country in the ME will accept them? Because they know the trouble that will eventually raise its head.
Stop kowtowing to the UN and its children, like the UNHCR, who only issue progressive statements and programs, while taking billions in government donations and offering nothing except a white tent and a bag of rice in return. We can't fix anything while running around trying to innefficiently block the the myriad of holes in the dike. We need to get back down to a reasonable, manageable status before we fix things. If you are not contributing to Canada, you don't need to be here.

Then you are left with needing to intervene internationally - there is no cake and eat it too, in global affairs.

Now, I'm sure there is flaws in my plan and some may even take umbrage. Feel free to offer your own solutions for those that come here, illegally, with two wives and eight kids and then just sit back and collect the largesse of our welfare system, supplied by our taxes, without even learning one of the two official languages, getting a job or contributing to the society that is supporting them in their now comfortable lives while Canadians need to buy blue tarps and become new residents of the local trudeauvilles. While our newcomers get 4 star hotels, food, medical and clothing for free.

This just a man on the street rant and as such, likely has all the regular flaws, mistakes and misunderstanding, that these rants have.

I understand the premise behind your argument, but people will flee to stable countries, and you are going to need to take some in, or you are going to have folks actively trying to screw you as they see a Have ignoring a Have not country/people.

The solution to reducing refugees trying to flee unstable countries - is to stabilize them.
But everyone needs to know going in, that isn't not a simply election cycle issue - and it will take decades.

1) Wipe out the Armed Gangs, establish relief centers to attempt to stabilize the humanitarian situation.
It will be ugly, and a lot of people will die, but in the long run it is the most humane approach.
Pacification phase 6 months
Stability phase 18 months

2) Reeducate the citizenry, and rebuild infrastructure. This includes the creation of a new education system, a legal system, training a police force. It also requires ruthless anti-corruption activities.
This is a 15-20 year process that one cannot really shortcut or jump start in a country like Haiti.

 

[GK .Dundas]

This is a war of empire and democracies do them poorly.

The Native North Americans would have been a big fan of your concept 200 years ago...


Canada (like the US) has the need of immigrants, just not ones making their new found home unstable.


Make Canada Great Again?

Then you are left with needing to intervene internationally - there is no cake and eat it too, in global affairs.

I understand the premise behind your argument, but people will flee to stable countries, and you are going to need to take some in, or you are going to have folks actively trying to screw you as they see a Have ignoring a Have not country/people.

The solution to reducing refugees trying to flee unstable countries - is to stabilize them.
But everyone needs to know going in, that isn't not a simply election cycle issue - and it will take decades.

1) Wipe out the Armed Gangs, establish relief centers to attempt to stabilize the humanitarian situation.
It will be ugly, and a lot of people will die, but in the long run it is the most humane approach.
Pacification phase 6 months
Stability phase 18 months

2) Reeducate the citizenry, and rebuild infrastructure. This includes the creation of a new education system, a legal system, training a police force. It also requires ruthless anti-corruption activities.
This is a 15-20 year process that one cannot really shortcut or jump start in a country like Haiti.

Pacification more 18 months to 3 years, stabilisation phase 5 years
Then roughly 25 to 50 years to rebuild.
Where's Robert Debs Heinel when you need him?

 

[Retired AF Guy]

1) Wipe out the Armed Gangs, establish relief centers to attempt to stabilize the humanitarian situation.
It will be ugly, and a lot of people will die, but in the long run it is the most humane approach.
Pacification phase 6 months
Stability phase 18 months

2) Reeducate the citizenry, and rebuild infrastructure. This includes the creation of a new education system, a legal system, training a police force. It also requires ruthless anti-corruption activities.
This is a 15-20 year process that one cannot really shortcut or jump start in a country like Haiti.

So, kind of like Germany post - 1945. Get rid the bad guys, stabilize the country, help it re-build and a create a friendly armed forces.

But you would still have to put boots on the ground.

May be take some of those Haitian refugees in Canada (and US?), arm them and train them in Urban Warfare and send them in, while providing support (eg logistical, air and intelligence support, etc.).

 

[Furniture]

The solution to reducing refugees trying to flee unstable countries - is to stabilize them.
But everyone needs to know going in, that isn't not a simply election cycle issue - and it will take decades.

1) Wipe out the Armed Gangs, establish relief centers to attempt to stabilize the humanitarian situation.
It will be ugly, and a lot of people will die, but in the long run it is the most humane approach.
Pacification phase 6 months
Stability phase 18 months

2) Reeducate the citizenry, and rebuild infrastructure. This includes the creation of a new education system, a legal system, training a police force. It also requires ruthless anti-corruption activities.
This is a 15-20 year process that one cannot really shortcut or jump start in a country like Haiti.

I agree with this apart from one thing, your timelines are all about 3-4x too short.

To build a lasting peace you need to create a stable environment that outlasts the people who lived in the before times, and for their children to be on death's door. When you have young people who know nothing but peace, raised by people who know nothing but peace, then you might get a functioning society to run without outside intervention.

So, kind of like Germany post - 1945. Get rid the bad guys, stabilize the country, help it re-build and a create a friendly armed forces.

Germany had a functioning society before the war, and the Allies kept a lot of the former Nazi civil service and police around to maintain order. Haiti doesn't have a functioning society, and hasn't for at least 1-2 generations.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

I agree with this apart from one thing, your timelines are all about 3-4x too short.

To build a lasting peace you need to create a stable environment that outlasts the people who lived in the before times, and for their children to be on death's door. When you have young people who know nothing but peace, raised by people who know nothing but peace, then you might get a functioning society to run without outside intervention.


Germany had a functioning society before the war, and the Allies kept a lot of the former Nazi civil service and police around to maintain order. Haiti doesn't have a functioning society, and hasn't for at least 1-2 generations.

Good point...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The Native North Americans would have been a big fan of your concept 200 years ago...


Canada (like the US) has the need of immigrants, just not ones making their new found home unstable.

Of course. I'm not advocating for a complete halt to all immigration. Only a temporary one to where we can reach stability before instituting new rules in order to address the problems. We're way over the limit to where we can provide the essentials of a normal life to everyone and everyday Canadians are suffering for it, to the benefit of those that aren't supposed to be here.

1) Wipe out the Armed Gangs, establish relief centers to attempt to stabilize the humanitarian situation.
It will be ugly, and a lot of people will die, but in the long run it is the most humane approach.
Pacification phase 6 months
Stability phase 18 months

That was somewhat my initial thoughts. Go in with an absolute overwhelming force and roll up the whole country, brutally and unfairly. I didn't think it would get much support though.

2) Reeducate the citizenry, and rebuild infrastructure. This includes the creation of a new education system, a legal system, training a police force. It also requires ruthless anti-corruption activities.
This is a 15-20 year process that one cannot really shortcut or jump start in a country like Haiti.

You mean like we did with Afghanistan. It will also take more than twenty years. At least two generations of college educated people, able to go into all levels of government and industry and drive the change. Unfortunately, we bring them here to be educated and they end up staying here, instead of going home and driving that change.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

May be take some of those Haitian refugees in Canada (and US?), arm them and train them in Urban Warfare and send them in, while providing support (eg logistical, air and intelligence support, etc.).

Sounds an awful lot like a Bay of Pigs scenario. That didn't go so well.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Sounds an awful lot like a Bay of Pigs scenario. That didn't go so well.

IIRC it was disaster because they were denied air and naval support that had been promised them.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

IIRC it was disaster because they were denied air and naval support that had been promised them.

That and the fact Castro knew about it in advance and had his troops positioned and ready to defend.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Another ongoing problem there

 

[dimsum]

Sometimes our compassion is our undoing.

Sometimes its best to stay out of others business.

AKA the official US position from 1930s - about 0747 on 07 Dec 1941.

 

[Halifax Tar]

That creates a refugee crisis which makes it our business. People don’t become refugees if their country is stable.

You can deal with refugees and you can also deny them their claim. I'm comfortable with that when its required.

No one would emerge the winner, of course ...


Haiti's collapse poses serious threats to global trade, regional security, and humanitarian conditions in the Caribbean

The current situation in Haiti has been overlooked by many, a mistake given that the crisis is likely to continue to deteriorate with vast implications for international trade and global supply chains. Indeed, the crisis holds the potential to spiral the western hemisphere into disorder.

Pirates, refugees & risk: The global economic consequences of Haiti's collapse - Thomson Reuters Institute

Haiti's collapse poses serious threats to global trade, regional security, and humanitarian conditions in the Caribbean and Latin America.

www.thomsonreuters.com

I see this as a problem Caribbean nations need to handle. I see us in a supporting role.

So, kind of like Germany post - 1945. Get rid the bad guys, stabilize the country, help it re-build and a create a friendly armed forces.

Germany was also obliterated by 5 years of war, had a larger portion of their fighting aged males killed, and they didn't have racial and cultural tensions with their occupiers. These all work in the favor of rebuilding.

AKA the official US position from 1930s - about 0747 on 07 Dec 1941.

Let me know when Haiti bombs Norfolk or Halifax.

 

[dimsum]

Let me know when Haiti bombs Norfolk or Halifax.

Haiti won’t, but it is still an open door within striking distance of North America for any other country willing to buy off the most powerful gang to let them operate there.

 

[KevinB]

I agree with this apart from one thing, your timelines are all about 3-4x too short.

My system of pacification doesn’t need a long run.
Targeted Killings of opposition leadership, and reducing the threat to the population from this gangs. Just as importantly is removing the angst from those who’d they recruit, so the pool of "expendable crewmen" dry up.

To build a lasting peace you need to create a stable environment that outlasts the people who lived in the before times, and for their children to be on death's door.

Not necessarily, you just need to remove any want or desire to return to the old ways.

When you have young people who know nothing but peace, raised by people who know nothing but peace, then you might get a functioning society to run without outside intervention.

I actually disagree with that, as the people who live in Utopia don't understand the pain and struggles to get there.

Germany had a functioning society before the war, and the Allies kept a lot of the former Nazi civil service and police around to maintain order. Haiti doesn't have a functioning society, and hasn't for at least 1-2 generations.

I did say 15-20 years. That is when you will be able to start handing control back to the people. Germany was a different story, and so was Japan, but one needed to show a path (and punish deviation from it).
By 10 years you should have most of a National Police Force able to operate without International Support.
By 15 years the Criminal Legal System should be able to be run mostly with native Haitians, and a functioning Democratically elected Government can start putting a new constitution together with input from the People

 

[ueo]

My system of pacification doesn’t need a long run.
Targeted Killings of opposition leadership, and reducing the threat to the population from this gangs. Just as importantly is removing the angst from those who’d they recruit, so the pool of "expendable crewmen" dry up.



Not necessarily, you just need to remove any want or desire to return to the old ways.

I actually disagree with that, as the people who live in Utopia don't understand the pain and struggles to get there.

I did say 15-20 years. That is when you will be able to start handing control back to the people. Germany was a different story, and so was Japan, but one needed to show a path (and punish deviation from it).
By 10 years you should have most of a National Police Force able to operate without International Support.
By 15 years the Criminal Legal System should be able to be run mostly with native Haitians, and a functioning Democratically elected Government can start putting a new constitution together with input from the People

Sorta whats been tried, eh?

 

[Quirky]

We need to stop thinking that all groups of people can live and function at western society standards.

 

[KevinB]

Sorta whats been tried, eh?

No because there was never an actual effort put into wiping out the gangs.

You need a robust intelligence setup to identify and track all the various leaders, and their more committed elements, then you need to be able to eliminate those players with the absolute minimum amount of collateral damage to non combatants.

Simply driving around making presence patrols and passing out aid didn't cut it before, and won't now.

The issue is no one wants to see white (predominately white at least) soldiers going and executing non whites.

 

[medicineman]

No because there was never an actual effort put into wiping out the gangs.

You need a robust intelligence setup to identify and track all the various leaders, and their more committed elements, then you need to be able to eliminate those players with the absolute minimum amount of collateral damage to non combatants.

Simply driving around making presence patrols and passing out aid didn't cut it before, and won't now.

The issue is no one wants to see white (predominately white at least) soldiers going and executing non whites.

I seem to recall the late Jack Layton calling us "terrorists" in a speech in Toronto the summer I was down there because one of his constituents snivelled to him because 2 RCR and the USMC were disrupting his/his buddies' gun running operations...incidentally, we didn't shoot anyone down there, though there were a few close calls, plus a US Marine did get shot when the QRF he was in responded to a three way gun battle between some narcos - him getting shot rather abruptly stopped the gunfight apparently, as the narcos didn't want to be around for the follow up that was going to happen next.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You are going to have to be comfortable with killing people for awhile and the gangs will purposefully use kids for hits on government officials, just to make life harder for the occupying power. You would need to flood the area with money and basic jobs, building stuff that takes up a lot of manpower and time. Most don't have a good education or skills, so you need to keep the current generation busy and paid to limit gang influences. Capital punishment is also going to have to be a thing.