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Has rank been watered down?

A tangent - but a look at Corporal Punishment of Children shows that "old days" thinking isn't so old.

Section 43 of the Criminal Code of Canada is a defense to assault that justifies violence against children by teachers and parents in the name of correction. It became part of our Criminal Code in 1892 and has allowed severe spanking, slapping and striking with belts and other objects.

Every schoolteacher, parent or person standing in the place of a parent is justified in using force by way of correction toward a pupil or child, as the case may be, who is under his care, if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances. R.S.C., 1985, c .C-4

In November 1998, the Canadian Foundation for Children, Youth and the Law sought a declaration in Ontario that section 43 violates sections 7 (security of the person), 12 (cruel and unusual punishment), and 15 (equality) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and that it conflicts with Canadas obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Section 43 is a limited defence; it provides that a parent, teacher or person acting in the place of a parent is justified in using force to correct a child that is under his or her care, provided that the force used is reasonable in all the circumstances.

The federal government defended against the Charter challenge and was supported by the Canadian Teachers Federation and the Coalition for Family Autonomy (Focus on the Family, the Canadian Family Action Coalition, the Home School Legal Defence Association of Canada, and REAL Women of Canada). The Canadian Foundations position was supported by the Ontario Association of Childrens Aid Societies.

In its decision of July 5, 2000, the Ontario Superior Court of Justice upheld the constitutionality of section 43 and found that it was consistent with Canadas obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.
On January 15, 2002, the Ontario Court of Appeal upheld the lower courts decision and dismissed the appeal. This decision was appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada, which heard the appeal on June 6, 2003 and reserved judgment.

On January 30, 2004. The issue before the Supreme Court of Canada was whether s.43 of the Criminal Code of Canada is unconstitutional. Section 43 provides that a parent, teacher or person acting in the place of a parent is justified in using force to correct a child that is under his or her care provided that the force used is reasonable in all of the circumstances.

The Supreme Court of Canada decided that section 43 of the Criminal Code is constitutional; it found that section 43 does not violate a childs rights to security of the person and equality, and is not cruel and unusual punishment. More specifically, the Supreme Court held that section 43 ensures that the criminal law applies to any use of force that harms a child, but does not apply where the use of force is part of a genuine effort to educate the child, poses no reasonable risk of harm that is more than transitory and trifling, and is reasonable under the circumstances.June 2005

Responding to human rights complaints brought against five countries, the European Committee of Social Rights has confirmed (June 2005) that supreme court judgments in Italy and Portugal do prohibit all corporal punishment of children. This means that more than a third (16 of 46) member states of the Council of Europe now give children equal protection under their assault laws.

In addition to Italy and Portugal, the other countries where children have equal protection are: Sweden (1979), Finland (1983), Norway (1987), Austria (1989), Cyprus (1994), Denmark (1997), Latvia (1998), Croatia (1999), Bulgaria (2000), Germany (2000), Iceland (2003), Hungary (2004), Romania (2004) and Ukraine (2004).

U.N. Committee of the Rights of the Child 42nd Session ( June 2006 )
General Comment No. 8: The right of the child to protection from corporal punishment and other cruel or degrading forms of punishment


Sources:
www.repeal43.org/ 
www.canadiancrc.com/articles/Corporal_punishment_S_McDonald_CBU_25NOV05.aspx
www.canadiancrc.com/Child_Abuse/Supreme_Court_Case_Spanking.aspx
www.endcorporalpunishment.org
 
Fear is the way society works friends,this is nothing that is
excursive to the military,we obey the rules because we fear
the consequences,from Dad,the Sergeant Major,or the
Police.The idea that we all would do the right thing if all
controls were removed is one of those myths that got
started in 60s and has been plaguing our society ever since.
Take away the external pressures of discipline,respect enforced
by hierarchies and people act purely in self interest,just like
pre school children.
I joined the Canadian Army in 1958 so I think I am qualified
to have an opinion about the Old Army system.Was I scared
of my NCOs?,damn right I was,not because of fear of physical
abuse,unlike the originator of this thread,who claimed to have
been physically abused in basic in the 1980s,I was never physically
abused,physically challenged maybe but never abused.My fear
was based on the fact that the NCOs could make my life so
very difficult and uncomfortable the it was in my self interest
play by the Armies rules.
                          Regards


























       
 
time expired said:
I joined the Canadian Army in 1958 so I think I am qualified to have an opinion about the Old Army system.Was I scared
of my NCOs?,damn right I was,not because of fear of physical abuse,unlike the originator of this thread,who claimed to have
been physically abused in basic in the 1980s,I was never physically abused,physically challenged maybe but never abused.My fear
was based on the fact that the NCOs could make my life so very difficult and uncomfortable the it was in my self interest
play by the Armies rules.
(Note: Emphasis mine)

I agree with you.  I went through Basic in 1986 as well, serial 8645, and we were never physically or mentally abused.  As a matter of fact, we had a Master Seaman apologize to us for calling us stupid during drill class.  The way I always looked at stuff like that was that if it offended you, then it probably applied to you.  ;)  We feared our NCOs because they could (and did) make our lives heck!
 
See??? Isn't everyone just saying the same thing but in different words?  Look, re-read Vern's second last post.  My son doesn't get up for school every morning because he really wants to.  He has been taught that there will be consequences for his actions - positively or negatively depending on his actions - and he has been taught that I will always stick to the consequences, ergo he gets out of bed on time because he knows the consequences of not getting out of bed.  Is my son afraid of me?  I think not.  Does he do a thing because he is afraid of what will happen, what allowance he will lose of or what chore he will have to do?  More than likely.  This is discipline. 

Discipline doesn't just happen, it's taught.  And yes, it could be called a fear by some, or how about a dislike?  I would highly dislike it if I were charged and fined $1000.00.  Therefore I will not do the thing that MAY get me charged and take $1000.00 from my pay, or cause me to have to march over to the HQ building every 2 hours in a different uniform for 14 days (remember that one Vern??) I would dislike that.

I guess the bottom line for me anyway is not fear of my leaders or even fear of the consequences but fear that my leader will stick to the consequences.  Younger soldiers today - not all, but definitely a good lot - have been taught the reverse.  "Don't worry, my WO won't do anything - he's on his retirement slump" or "I've screamed harassment so many times now that my Sgt don't even look twice at me" Yes, our generation is partially to blame, but the pendulum swings both ways. 

It may be broke people, but we CAN fix it - properly - just by being an excellent leader.  Remember, my son respects me, not because he fears me but because I respect him back.
 
ALL discipline is self-imposed.

The leaders amongst us just make the choices available more apparent.
 
Ok, how about this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discipline

Discipline, disciplinarian, disciple...

Quite a concept, but I like the way it's put here.
 
BinRat55 said:
Ok, how about this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discipline

Discipline, disciplinarian, disciple...

Quite a concept, but I like the way it's put here.

That is a well articulated spin on the concept.  I'm in general agreement with it.
 
Roy Harding said:
ALL discipline is self-imposed.

The leaders amongst us just make the choices available more apparent.

I sure wish I'd thought of that when I was raising my son. He wasn't a discipline problem, but being a very bright, creative child, we did have our moments!

:cdn:
Hawk
 
Incidentally,a point I missed in my last post.Old Army ended with Intergration,
Unification and the abolishment of the L/Cpl. rank.Everything since is New Army
and as I read this thread it is clear to me that one has very little to do with the
other.Why the L/Cpl.rank?,well actually it was an appointment given by the
authority of the unit CO and could be just as quickly removed by him.The newly
appointed L/Cpl.learned that he had to separate himself from his former comrades
and somehow gain their respect,not an easy task.Some tried to do this by charging
everyone in sight for every minor infraction he saw.This was not a good strategy as
it tended to create a lot off unnecessary paperwork and generally pi%&ed the
CSM off,however it did establish the dangerous reputation of the rank.A better
way to succeed in this rank was to set a good example to your former peers in all
departments of military conduct,dress,deportment etc.This, plus the occasional
charge,to keep everyone on their toes was the route to the CPLs Mess, a  very select
and desirable place in those days.
The establishment  of the M/Cpl rank at Unification seemed to be something of an
afterthought, that fact and the requirement to get promoted under the, then new, PER
seemed to bring a completely new type of Jnr.NCO very much a "getting along by
going along"type of guy and that seemed to move slowly upward through the entire
rank system and that, to me, has lead to where we are today.
There are of course other contributing factors to the malaise evident in some of the
posts on this thread,the PER system as originally constituted,poorly applied Human
Rights legislation,to name a couple.My solution,bring back the L/Cpl.
                                        Regards
 
As long as we're quibbling here, and picking the flyshit out of the pepper - MCpl IS an appointment - not a rank.

Check it out:  http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol1/ch003_e.asp#3.08

3.08 – MASTER CORPORAL APPOINTMENT

(1) The Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as he may designate may appoint a corporal as a master corporal.

(2) The rank of a master corporal remains that of corporal.

(3) Master corporals have seniority among themselves in their order of seniority as corporals.

(4) Master corporals have authority and powers of command over all other corporals.
 
CDN Aviator said:
:crybaby:

The whole post but the bold part in perticular

I give up trying to make my point, but there it is Vern, you say it shouldn't happen anymore, and I firmly agree. Others think I'm whining and crying out to the sky about how oh-so-unjust it all is, and throw the crybaby symbol out there in a single post.  If the opinions here differ this much about respect, how can we possible hope to conclude this entire thread to anyones satisfaction?

And so ends my involvment in this thread.
 
Dog said:
And so ends my involvment in this thread.

And, eerily you've yet to answer my question "what did you do about it?"

There's one thing I hate in this outfit -- it's the people that love to bitch, but won't get off their butts to do anything to make the difference. And, I think that was his point. If it's caused as much agony and heartache as you say to you ... and it's worth whining about -- then do something about it. I already offered you my assistance. What more do you need?
 
Just thought i'd chime in,

I totally agreed with what someone said about crash and bash they called it, that you cant just expect to use the same technique you used on a different demographic.  you have many people coming in with education and life experience, (20-30 yrs old), and they are not going to tolerate NOT being treated like a person.

Don't get me wrong, i got yelled at and sworn at in BMQ and i only did mine 2-3 years ago, but there was 1 sgt, who did it particularly well, he didn't just berate you for the fun of it, like i hear many NCO's did in the OLD DAYS, he showed you your mistake, told you what to do to rectify, and said he did not want to see it again, didn't go hooting and hollering he treated us like adults/people, and thats what they need to do.  The days of 95% of recruits being 16-19 who need to be taught how to shave, and who are used to being torn a strip for anything and everything are gone.

About the saluting, well in the Naval example, what part of the ship were you on?? were you in one of the messes? i'm guessing so, if the OS was just relaxing, he had probably just been on watch or something, and was in the mess relaxing.  1. You don't really do drill on ship, unless you have a parade on the quarter/sweep deck, inside the ship you don't do drill.  2. As previously mentioned you don't salute on a ship, except for sunset, colours (if you are by the Jack or ensign), crossing the brow, or if you are reporting directly to an officer because you were piped.  I have to say though, i don't know anyone from OS to CPO who would have tolerated feet up on table.

Sorry to say but that is one thing the Army needs to learn, that the Air force and definitely the Navy, are not run like the Army, so you can't come into the Navy world and just complain about how things are there, things are different we all know that.  That being said, Officer = commission = salute, no matter what....from 2Lt/Acting S/LT all the way to Admiral/General.  the only time i don't salute officers is if i am wearing my tuque, then i check my arms with a courteous Sir/Ma'am.

As to the comment about the CPO1 not liking to be called Sir, well that's because that's not the proper term used...the proper term is Chief, in the Navy Sir is for Officers only, you calling a CPO1, Sir, is akin to someone coming on your base and calling a CMO/CWO,  Chief.  You are not disrespecting him by calling him Chief.
 
Biggoals2bdone said:
the only time i don't salute officers is if i am wearing my tuque, then i check my arms with a courteous Sir/Ma'am.

Wow, maybe we are really falling apart.  I was taught that if you are wearing headdress of any type, you salute.  The only time you would check arms is if you are NOT wearing headdress.

To rectify my earlier post, when I said we "feared" our NCOs in Basic (and later).  I didn't mean fear as in being afraid, I meant fear of having to face the consequences (extras, charge) if you ****ed up.  I had nothing but respect for my superiors.  At present, I still respect my superiors but in a very few cases, I can respect only the rank.
 
Biggoals2bdone said:
.  the only time i don't salute officers is if i am wearing my tuque, then i check my arms with a courteous Sir/Ma'am.

Do you still doff your civvie cap if your pass an officer while in mufti? Lots of folks seem to have forgotten that as well.
 
PMedMoe said:
Wow, maybe we are really falling apart.  I was taught that if you are wearing headdress of any type, you salute.  The only time you would check arms is if you are NOT wearing headdress.

Same, and still do.
 
The toque thing is funny I had an NCM at Gagetown tell me he was taught the same thing. I was walking off base one day and he sauntered by in CADPAT and toque. When I asked him about saluting he told me he was taught not to salute with a toque on. I told him he was mistaken...he snapped off a high five...I returned it and we carried on....but where are they teaching this?? at St Jean??
 
IN HOC SIGNO said:
but where are they teaching this?? at St Jean??


I dont know. I went through there in 93 and we saluted everything that casts a shadow no matter what we were wearing just to be safe !!!
 
ROY,That is of course correct,M/Cpl. is still an appointment,however
the appointment is made at the very top and there seems to be no
sense that the new M/Cpl. needs to make any changes in his attitude
or performance to maintain his new rank.Instead this new M/Cpl.keeps
the same relationship with his Cpl.buddies,after all they are in the same
mess,but can now risk calling Sgts.by their first names.In short this
appointment has in effect become a promotion and the M/Cpls.is now
quite secure, only a major crime can jeopardise his position.The L/Cpl.
however was under constant pressure to maintain a high level of
performance as his CO could take away this appointment at any time,
in fact L/Cpls reverted back to private on posting,usually with a strong
reccommendation for promotion if he was any good.Is this important?,
I think so,as it teaches the young soldier the separation between the
ranks also that good leadership techniques will command respect.
It seems to me on reading some of these posts that that something is
broken and I also get the impression that some of the younger members
feel we suffered under a brutal" kadavergerhorsam" system in the
Old Army,this could no be further from the truth.One thing that always
stood out in the Cold War Canadian Army was the initiative and flexability
of Canadian soldier in comparison with our major NATO partners,this is
not obtained through brutal discipline and blind obedience
                                            Regards


 
IN HOC SIGNO said:
where are they teaching this?? at St Jean??

  Well quite a few courses are run during the summer, I know I never had a chance to wear any of my winter gear, so that could explain it. But I guess it wouldn't explain that he was TAUGHT not to salute in a toque.

CDN Aviator said:
we saluted everything that casts a shadow no matter what we were wearing just to be safe !!!
  ;D  Somethings will never change at CFLRS. :salute:
 
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