High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[quadrapiper]

true, just have to electrify those portions of the trackage. But they would require a dedicated line otherwise freight traffic would screw up the schedule as it does now with VIA

public transit. Every European city I have been in has an extensive combination of buses, trams, subways and interurban rail even in the smaller towns. North America spent decades chasing the American dream of cars; everyone with their own wheels and ripped up all of the interurban infrastructure that our primitive forefathers had built. There were trains everywhere, even as I found out this year from OTTAWA to Parry Sound. There was a street car system that went up and down the Niagara gorge serving both sides of the border. Toronto to Niagara Falls was a choice of ferries to St. Catharines or Queenston and then rail from there. Everything was ripped up and the railways disposed of the land so they couldn't be re-built today without enormous expense to purchase the rights of way. So in order to make high speed work you have to address the low speed as well. I would be tempted to add one more stop (near Perth for instance) to provide a link to the cities on the 401 corridor

Feels like a "transportation land reserve" is needed to save whatever's still more or less uninterrupted: anything that was ever a rail ROW gets protection, and all other uses get either locked out or permitted only until someone wants to put rails on it again.

Hard ban on public consultation on whether rail gets run somewhere. You've enjoyed the peace and quiet and increased property values of being somewhere central, with a disused rail corridor, with maybe a municipal walking trail on it, passing your house? That's nice, and no you get no say in whether that corridor reopens or in the nature of traffic on it. Getting the bulk movement of people and stuff out of the most inefficient modes (PMV, semis, and aviation) matters more than property values.

Significant devaluing of municipal opposition, too, to further muffle the noise from outraged property owners.

 

[OldSolduer]

It’s a fucking bribe to Ontario and Quebec. No more, no less.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It’s a fucking bribe to Ontario and Quebec. No more, no less.

It might not be a bribe as much as an economic ankle bracelet.

The economic impacts of High-speed rail (HSR)

Abstract:
The study evaluates the economic impacts of High-speed rail (HSR) using a meta-analysis approach. HSR is a passenger rail system that operates at speeds greater than 125 mph (or greater than 200 kph). Broadly, the economic impacts of HSR can be grouped into five categories: 1) job creation and economic output (including direct, indirect, and induced effects); 2) tourism; 4) housing; 4) station area and regional development; and 5) other economic impacts. A number of studies have also attempted to quantify economic impacts associated with time savings, reduced congestion, and lower emissions (pollution and greenhouse gas (GHG)).

An increasing body of literature documents the economic impacts of HSR, although more research is needed. Documenting the economic impacts of high-speed rail systems is inherently difficult due to limited fine-grained economic data, and differences in models, data collection, and study methodologies, which frequently produce inconsistent findings.

Most existing studies were also completed before the pandemic and therefore fail to account for other changes in travel behavior such as the growth of telework. As travel behavior continues to stabilize in the post-pandemic period, high-speed rail may have to reinvent itself in response to these changes in order to maximize potential economic benefits.

Economic Impacts of High-Speed Rail: A Review

ADAM COHEN Adam Cohen is an MTI Research Associate and a researcher at the Transportation Sustainability Research Center at the University of California, Berkeley. Since joining the group in 2004, his research has focused on innovative mobility, including shared mobility, smart cities...

transweb.sjsu.edu

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Is that still true in spite of the likes of Krell and Harrison? When I worked for CP I had to shake my head when they ripped out the auto switches in the Winnipeg yard to save money, but now you have to hand throw switches to get across...very efficient.

The Company needed to do it to survive. Prior to the EHH era, the Company was in the toilet. The Union loved it because they basically did whatever they wanted and were 'running the company' for lack of a better term. They nearly ran it in to the ground which is why EHH was brought in.

They are making some pretty significant investments: siding extensions, port expansions, new transloading facilities, cold storage, the KCS acquisition which has completely changed the game tbh. Most importantly, they are making a lot of money and have made a once unprofitable business near bankruptcy in to an extremely profitable one.

 

[YZT580]

You're missing a key difference. Railways in Italy and elsewhere in Europe are Government-owned/Nationalized. Their networks are also designed and optimized for passenger as opposed to freight traffic. Freight-trains in Europe can be no longer than approx 2500ft by regulation. The freight trains we run here are 10,000ft+ and can be up to 14,000ft in length.



I think it's viable, not a believer that it makes financial sense to do so and costs would never ever be recouped. The major issue is the Government-owned passenger rail company, VIA, operates almost exclusively on a private freight railway's right-of-way.

In a perfect World, the Government would upgrade that right-of-way to provide a higher level of service for its corridor service than it currently offers: No at-grade crossings, a lot of it is already double track but you could add additional sidings as required to facilitate train-meets, etc.

Canada had a "high-speed" train in the 60s and 70s called the Turbotrain which achieved speeds of 140mph but was restricted to 95mph due to the amount of Public and private crossings on the right-of-way between Montreal and Toronto which is 1000+ in number.

I personally think Canada needs to make what it has better before it starts any massive infrastructure project. VIA Rail is an absolute soup sandwich as is a bunch of the regional/urban commuter lines. Metrolinx and GO are run like absolute garbage as is OC Transport. Improve what we have and make it actually work well, then build from there.

The Germans have several sections where they will run an ICE train set on a standard track over much of its route with the high speed portion only kicking in for 40 or 50 miles at most. I guess they consider the time savings on that portion sufficient to justify the more expensive train over the entire route

 

[YZT580]

Feels like a "transportation land reserve" is needed to save whatever's still more or less uninterrupted: anything that was ever a rail ROW gets protection, and all other uses get either locked out or permitted only until someone wants to put rails on it again.

Hard ban on public consultation on whether rail gets run somewhere. You've enjoyed the peace and quiet and increased property values of being somewhere central, with a disused rail corridor, with maybe a municipal walking trail on it, passing your house? That's nice, and no you get no say in whether that corridor reopens or in the nature of traffic on it. Getting the bulk movement of people and stuff out of the most inefficient modes (PMV, semis, and aviation) matters more than property values.

Significant devaluing of municipal opposition, too, to further muffle the noise from outraged property owners.

Amen to that. Speaking of semis, the Belgians at one time had freight engines running on their tram lines. You see a number of industrial buildings that have the remnants of tracks leading into the building. An engine would pick up a goods wagon from the shunting yard and deliver it the destination warehouse or factory. Intent was to eliminate truck traffic downtown and to free up road space. Eventually the system was disbanded but struck me as being a good idea in today's pollution conscious world

 

[mariomike]

Canada had a "high-speed" train in the 60s and 70s called the Turbotrain which achieved speeds of 140mph but was restricted to 95mph due to the amount of Public and private crossings on the right-of-way between Montreal and Toronto which is 1000+ in number.

My father used to run the Turbo to Montreal. It was quite a ride.

Not an SME, and don't know about the party politics of HSR in Canada, but it sounds exciting.

 

[FSTO]

Perhaps the Alto team should be directed by the Feds to gain experience by building this route first

The link I posted above was from a person who knows a bit about big projects and has serious questions. We should be getting Japanese or French Project Directors to run the project

 

[lenaitch]

Perhaps the Alto team should be directed by the Feds to gain experience by building this route first and then do eastern Canada segments, one at a time, once they have learned some lessons. Perhaps Ottawa Montreal, first. Then extend in one direction or another after that.

The black vans are parked in front of your house as we speak.

I’d be curious to see a use / demand analysis on this. I’m ambivalent- I definitely don’t know enough to say.

I spend enough time looking at stuff on Flightradar to see a regular stream of flights on the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto triangle. There’s certainly some demand there, and that’s with the hassle of clearing through an airport. I use to travel Via between Ottawa and Kingston regularly, I’ve traveled on SNCF high speed in France, and commuter rail (not Shinkansen, sadly) in Japan- show up with a ticket paid and walk on. Walk off at the other end. If the stations link in with other transportation infrastructure and are convenient to business / entertainment centres, I could see there being use. Would I hop a train for a good concert in Montreal or Toronto? Yeah, absolutely.

If this got built and ran reliably, suddenly having time efficient movement between the involved cities would certainly open up some other economic/lifestyle options.

I’m not sure if there‘a a real reason for Peterborough other than it simply happens to be a well placed dot on the map relative to Ottawa and Toronto, but this could be a real win for that city.

I'm not 100% certain but I believe France either has, or has announced an intention, to ban short haul domestic flights. Of course, the pax rail network is already largely built out.

The 'last mile' connectivity would be a subsequent issue. I imagine the presence of HSR would beget improved local/regional feeder transit. Who pays for it is always the fun part.

My feelings are it's just another liberal boondoggle, designed to reward loyal corporations like SNC. If it gets built, it'll be obsolete before it pulls out of the station. It's a distraction during the leadership race. Takes the eyes off carney.

So if the likely next government carries on with it, does it become a Conservative boondoggle? High speed rail in 'the corridor' has been studied over 20 times since the 1980s.

 

[lenaitch]

The reason they landed on the conceptual routing between Ottawa and Toronto (through/near Peterborough) is an outgrowth of the High Frequency Rail proposal. Adding high frequency to the current VIA corridor between Toronto and Montreal on CN trackage would have required dedicated trackage. VIA did pay CN to add some extra trackage on that subdivision and it didn't go well. Regardless, VIA would still be a tenant. To try and add high speed to that corridor (with few stops) plus maintain local VIA service plus CN freight, there simply isn't the space for all that trackage.

High speed rail, when operated in high speed areas, simply cannot intermingle with non-high speed traffic. Of course, when they are coming into a station stop or urban area, they have to slow down and could mingle on existing tracks. One problem with that is electrification. Once you start mingling on CN or CPKC property, you would need to hang wires and both of them so far has shown no interest in cooperating with that and the government, as the regulator, seems to have no interest in pushing it.

The proposal, as advertised, speaks of speeds "up to 300 kph" (186 mph). That is a class of track that doesn't even exist in Canada. The higher you go, rules regarding curvatures, clearances, sightlines, etc. all get stricter. Current TC guidelines say no at-grade crossings for speeds over 110 mph (177 kph).

 

[ytz]

We are doing it wrong.

Canada Shouldn’t Build High-Speed Rail

It is still the time in this fair land for that railroad not to run

open.substack.com

A commie arguing that the government shouldn't have the private sector develop something. Big surprise.

Also, the guys post history..... He thinks robot cars are right around the corner. Must be a Tesla lobbyist or something. Musk pushed Hyperloop in California to try and kill High Speed Rail after studies showed it would reduce car ownership.

 

[ytz]

Loved riding HSR in Japan. Hopefully, one day, Canada will have it too.

We can dream. But just look at this thread. A country full of people who only know how to make excuses. Not to actually build shit.

 

[OldSolduer]

We can dream. But just look at this thread. A country full of people who only know how to make excuses. Not to actually build shit.

You do make a point. My question - is the technically possible and even more pertinent is it financially feasible?

 

[ytz]

The reason they landed on the conceptual routing between Ottawa and Toronto (through/near Peterborough) is an outgrowth of the High Frequency Rail proposal. Adding high frequency to the current VIA corridor between Toronto and Montreal on CN trackage would have required dedicated trackage. VIA did pay CN to add some extra trackage on that subdivision and it didn't go well. Regardless, VIA would still be a tenant. To try and add high speed to that corridor (with few stops) plus maintain local VIA service plus CN freight, there simply isn't the space for all that trackage.

High speed rail, when operated in high speed areas, simply cannot intermingle with non-high speed traffic. Of course, when they are coming into a station stop or urban area, they have to slow down and could mingle on existing tracks. One problem with that is electrification. Once you start mingling on CN or CPKC property, you would need to hang wires and both of them so far has shown no interest in cooperating with that and the government, as the regulator, seems to have no interest in pushing it.

The proposal, as advertised, speaks of speeds "up to 300 kph" (186 mph). That is a class of track that doesn't even exist in Canada. The higher you go, rules regarding curvatures, clearances, sightlines, etc. all get stricter. Current TC guidelines say no at-grade crossings for speeds over 110 mph (177 kph).

The refusal of rail companies to give passengers priority simply means there is no way to fix passenger rail without dedicated tracks. And I'm guessing once they looked at simply what land acquisition and assembly would cost, the actual cost to then build grade separated and electric was probably the only thing that actually makes the business case close.

Keep in mind that HFR was shopped around for years. All those big rail companies from Asia and Europe all repeatedly said only HSR makes sense here. The government still insisted on two separate bids (HFR and HSR). And this is what they ended up picking.

It's counter-intuitive. But sometimes double the cost yields triple the market. And that's quite likely what happened here.

 

[ytz]

Cadence is the builder. Cadence is a consortium of Air Canada, AtkinsRéalis and SNCF. The railway will be called Alto.

AtkinsRéalis is the new name for SNC Lavalin.

Cadence has 3 companies that are SNCF affiliates or subsidiaries: SNCF Voyageurs, Systra and Keolis. Go look up these companies. These are literally the companies that originally built the TGV in France and were spun out.

CDPQ Infra is the Quebec Pension Plan investment fund. They financed the REM in Montreal and actually built a fully automated metro from scratch in record time for Canada. That thing is literally the best system in Canada at the moment. Fully automated. Fully enclosed heated/air conditioned platforms. Boarding doors. High frequency. No other transit line in Canada has all that. And probably won't for maybe a decade. And they built all that for a per km cost that was just a few percentage points higher than the perpetually failing tram that Ottawa built.

Some of you are getting way too worked up about SNC Lavalin being on this team. They are the general contractor for this team. And if you're going to argue that SNC Lavalin should be automatically disqualified from all federal contracts, I hope you're prepared to pay some huge settlements for prejudice. You can't just blacklist a company permanently for something from years ago.

 

[ytz]

All of it ridiculous......we are NOT Japan nor Europe, we don't have all of our people rammed into little spaces,

Doesn't sound like you've actually been to Europe or Japan. Yes, they have some crowded cities. They also have suburbs and small towns. Maybe if you visit, and get out of a tourist burg, you'll see.....

Also the Quebec-Windsor Corridor population density: 82/km2. Spain population density: 96/km2. And Spain has the densest high speed rail network in the world. More of their population has access to HSR than China.

 

[lenaitch]

The refusal of rail companies to give passengers priority simply means there is no way to fix passenger rail without dedicated tracks. And I'm guessing once they looked at simply what land acquisition and assembly would cost, the actual cost to then build grade separated and electric was probably the only thing that actually makes the business case close.

Keep in mind that HFR was shopped around for years. All those big rail companies from Asia and Europe all repeatedly said only HSR makes sense here. The government still insisted on two separate bids (HFR and HSR). And this is what they ended up picking.

It's counter-intuitive. But sometimes double the cost yields triple the market. And that's quite likely what happened here.

Canada has a long history of not reigning in the Class I railways. I don't know what's behind it; maybe that we are so export-driven they are afraid the railways will play silly games. Or it is simply like most Canadian governments who like to have regulations, they just don't like to regulate.

There is currently a CN-imposed speed restriction on VIA's new Venture trains with CN claiming that the low number of axles might not trigger crossing and signal circuits. From what I have read, there is little foundation to it and VIA has been forced to take CN to the Federal Court where, in my opinion, this should have been managed by the regulator but, not a peep out of them.

One problem with VIA is they have no operating legislation; it exists by virtue of an order-in-council since 1977. AMTRAK is not problem free but they seem to have a lot more capacity and success in dealing with their host railways.

 

[ytz]

But most people taking the train do it to travel from London to Kitchener

This is literally the case for every High Speed Rail system ever built. The majority of travelers are not going end to end. Speed changes your mental map of how far thing are. If Peterborough is 40 mins from downtown Toronto by HSR, that trip becomes commutable.

If you actually take VIA regularly, you'll already see commuters taking it to Coburg, Port Hope, Belleville, Trenton and even Kingston. There's plenty of white collar workers who don't have to be at the office everyday, happy to earn a Toronto salary and live in the sticks. Plenty of these types will move to Peterborough and environs if the promised 40 min travel time materializes. Similarly, with Ottawa and Montreal being projected at 58 mins, there will be a lot more super commuters between these cities. And similarly Trois Rivières will see the same effect as Peterborough in Quebec.

 

[ytz]

The usual questions should be answered.

What is the expected ridership (show the work for the estimates)?

What will be the per capita capital cost per rider?

What will be the annual subsidy cost per rider?

What income levels will most riders be at?

What will be the expected ridership drops for other means?

Will other means be allowed to fail (go out of business) if insolvent; if not, what will be the expected annual subsidies?

This is literally what the design contract is for. You can't answer any of these questions without actually developing a properly detailed proposal. And they can't get those details without actually designing a route, siting stations, look at land assembly, etc. This is not a construction contract. It's a design contract. They will present options to the government at the end, including non-government financing (that's why CDPQ Infra is there), and the government can then decide what they want to go ahead with. Including not building anything.

 

[ytz]

I doubt Windsor will ever be included. We are always ignored when speaking of rail upgrades. The world stops at London around here. Everything south west of there doesn't exist.

If Phase 1 is actually built (and that's a big if), the case to go to Windsor becomes very easy. Not in the least because that route would connect Toronto (financial capital), Pearson (biggest airport in the country) and Kitchener-Waterloo (large tech hub). But things like this have to be phased. It's impossible to do it all in one shot. And it's actually bad enough that this wasn't just restricted to Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal.

Also, going West of Union is very difficult right now. The freight rails refuse to cooperate. And Metrolinx has a $13-15B decade long project underway to electrify all those rail lines and completely grade separate them to turn them into European style suburban rail. German rail operator Deutsche Bahn is the prime on that. And tossing HSR on to that project right now is probably too much.