If it is written, then it's true. Toronto Star says new attack helicopters.

[Bandit1]

CH-47D/F performance at 50,000 lb (max gross weight): 143 kn.

CH-146 performance (weight not indicated):  140 kn.

The aircraft - Griffon - can carry up to 13 people—two pilots, a flight engineer and 10 passengers—and has a maximum gross weight of nearly 5400 kg or 11900 lbs. Part of its heft comes from the armour that lines both the floor and the crew seats. Despite its weight, the Griffon can reach speeds up to 140 kn.

 

[Inch]

CH-47D/F performance at 50,000 lb (max gross weight): 143 kn.

CH-146 performance (weight not indicated):  140 kn.

The aircraft - Griffon - can carry up to 13 people—two pilots, a flight engineer and 10 passengers—and has a maximum gross weight of nearly 5400 kg or 11900 lbs. Part of its heft comes from the armour that lines both the floor and the crew seats. Despite its weight, the Griffon can reach speeds up to 140 kn.

Weight really doesn't mean squat with respect to speed. A Sea King at max all up weight (20,500lbs) has a never exceed speed (Vne) of 151 knots, a Sea King with 1000 lbs of gas (~17,000lbs) has a never exceed speed of 151 knots. Aerodynamics and power play a larger role in how fast a helo can fly.

Whether or not you can go that speed depends on the environmentals, ie DA.

As for the Kiowa going only 90 knots, are you sure that's right? It's a bit higher than that, a quick google search found that the Kiowa Warrior's Vne is 130 kts, with a cruise around 115 kts.

 

[Bandit1]

Sir,

I agree with you - sorry, I was just pasting directly from the CF website!

 

[Loachman]

CFD Mountain view still lists there being some Kiowa's in storage
http://antonakis.ca/12102005.php#9

Maybe with the mini gun and some new missiles?  They are stored indoors....

Maybe with new engines (at least twice the horsepower) and new rotor systems to lift the weight, new avionics, new sensors - or more simply and cheaply, new helicopters such as RH70.

Much as I loved the Kiowa, it's not worth resurrecting, militarily.

 

[geo]

That's the trouble when we're always trying to do things "on the cheap".
If it's old and worn out, then it's day is done and time to retire the darned thing.  Replace it with something that will do the job & do it well.

 

[Loachman]

Maybe look into the Kiowa Warrior variant?

20-plus-year-old technology. Get something modern. RH70 looks promising, but I'd prefer to wait a bit and see how it works out. I wouldn't want to be a launch customer for anything, especially from Bell.

 

[Loachman]

CH-47's gotta be faster than the 90kts of the Kiowa. Maybe the Warrior has an extra 10-20kts but it still should be slower than the Chinook. If Griffon has 140Kts max speed, Chinook must be close.

VNE for the Kiowa was 120 KIAS. Practical max speed was 110-115 (the latter on a really good one, on a cool/cold day). VNE with mission kits (MiniTAT, Target Marking Kit, Nite Sun) was 108 KIAS.

CH146 will not attain VNE in level flight.

Speeds vary with tactics. I doubt that Leopard or LAV get driven cross-country flat out too often, either.

 

[Loachman]

Even in 1990 when 427 was flying them they could barely handle four people onboard with no heavy kit.....how could these effectively carry the ammo and weapons needed to protect a Chinnook on the battlefield?

Their performance then was unchanged from when they were bought in 1971.

With a MiniTAT and 1100 rds (five belts) of 7.62 mm, one of the heavier observers, and one of the hotter-running engines (we were temperature-limited with the underpowered engines, and the odd one was worse than average) getting airborne on a hot July day in Petawawa in the mid-eighties was a real challenge, and that was nowhere near as hot as Afghanistan nor as high.

The MiniTAT was NOT a weapon, it was a farging anchor.

 

[Loachman]

CH-47D/F performance at 50,000 lb (max gross weight): 143 kn.

Abbreviation for Knot is kt.

CH-146 performance (weight not indicated):  140 kn.

As pointed out, weight is irrelevant regarding speed.

CH146 will not attain 140 kts in level flight. This is its VNE (Velocity Never Exceed) - a limit which, if exceeded, may result in structural damage, unacceptable stress on components, or control problems.

The aircraft - Griffon - can carry up to 13 people—two pilots, a flight engineer and 10 passengers—and has a maximum gross weight of nearly 5400 kg or 11900 lbs. Part of its heft comes from the armour that lines both the floor and the crew seats.

It's fifteen max. Two pilots, FE, four pax in each of the four-man bench and five-man bench (the FE occupies the right-hand seat on the five-man bench), and two in each of the transmission seats.

That's wearing T-shirt and shorts. It gets really crowded with anything else. And as weight of people and kit goes up, fuel load goes down in order to avoid exceeding max gross weight. Performance at max gross, especially on hotter days and at higher altitudes, becomes quite sluggish - harder to get going, and harder to stop - as well. That's never a good thing when flying tactically.

Raw numbers do not tell the whole story.

 

[Bandit1]

Thank you for the insight - I'm still green when it comes to rotors as most of my attention is paid to fix wings. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We used to use the 206 in the mining business, they really struggled, so we went to the 500. I see now that most companies are using upgraded 206L's to compete with the AStar. 206L has an internal load max of 1,000lb, the Astar is from 1,000-1600lbs depending on model.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Has anyone here ever taken a look at the Italian A 129 Mangusta International attack bird . I must admit a certain curiosity about what some of our highly qualified people on this board think of it?
                         
                                        regards,
                                                      Gordon
                                                         

 

[Loachman]

I saw one in 1992, brand spanking new.

How it stacks up against its competition - and I am not interested in meaningless numbers - I cannot say.

I'd stick with something more common, in use with major allies, like AH64 or AH1Z. It makes interoperability, especially logistically, far easier.

 

[Kat Stevens]

The Mi-35M would be a good fit.  Everyone in Afghanistan should get a warm, fuzzy, nostalgic feeling to see it in the sky again. 




For the sensitive types, I'm kidding, just in case it's not obvious.

 

[Loachman]

Well, no kidding needed...

According to a small blurb in the April/June Helitac (just delivered to Ops today; I don't know if the mag's behind or the postman) the Czechs have donated six Mi-17s and six Mi-24s to the Afghans and want to assist in pilot training.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Well, that's just.....neat!