immediate action drills squad level - question

[Kampfhamster]

The swiss army is about to introduce a new infantry technique called "Sofortaktionstechnik" (immediate action technique)

I was told the british SAS introduced this technique during the '50. Later the french army adopted it and the CF would use it as well.

Does somebody here recognize this: http://www.kampfhamster.com/SAT/tai_2_f.ppt (sorry, french and german only)

thanks in advance

 

[Fusaki]

Well, given that this ppt is written in French I only got the jist of what was written. But the main diagrams look like some of the stuff we do. At least in my own unit, the order and formation of march is decided by the section commanders, platoon commanders, and 2ics. The situation always dictates, and after awhile you and your boys fall into an appropraite formation without being told - or at least anticipate what orders are going to come.

Especially in OBUA, you can't have strict rules governing who covers which arcs. You just look at the guys around you and cover whatever area makes sense. Moving along side a building, the front man will obviously cover to the front, the rear man will obviously cover to the rear, and everyone in between will natually divide themselves between covering windows, alleys, up and down, ect.

At least at the Pte/Cpl level, we don't memorize diagrams like on this ppt. We just train, and get a feel for how the people in charge want things done.

 

[Fusaki]

On further reflection, I guess we do start off training with diagrams like this and we do have similar drills we use in patrolling. We have the "exploded cigar", "all-around defence", "ack ack", "single file", and all the hand signals to go along with it. But after awhile it looks less like how "the book" wants it and more like how the section commanders want it.

 

[pbi]

This stuff looks pretty similar to what we have been doing, with variations here and there, for many years. I agree fully with Ghostwalk that this kind of TTP is good as a tool for patrol training but you really need to stay flexible and use what works.

 

[Kampfhamster]

thank you guys.

Well, it's normal to change things a bit.

It would be interesting to know a bit more about the history of this technique.
For how long does th CF use this technique? From where it came originally?
Most of our WO instructors don't have a clue about it, some tell us it comes from the french's.

many many questions from a swiss guy

 

[pbi]

Canadian Army patrol tactics and doctrine got started in World War I, when we became recognized experts at patrolling and raids. We continued to develop these skills in WWII. In Korea we again improved our patrolling skills through combat operations. In the 1950s and early 60s, as counter-insurgency started to become more prominent for the British Army, we began to adopt their manuals, as well as the Australian Army Manuals "Patrolling" and "Ambush and Counter-Ambush". I was first exposed to patrol training in 1974 as a Reserve infantryman: IIRC our training was based largely on adopted Aussie stuff. Since then we have continued to develop our own, but we are always on the lookout for good stuff from other armies. We send officers and NCOs on the US Army Ranger Course, the SF course, and equivalent courses with other countries. We also have information exchange relationships with several other armies including US, UK, AUS/NZ. France, etc. As a result we have access to lots of different ideas on patrolling ops. How does the Swiss Army stay current? Cheers.

 

[Kampfhamster]

That's interesting, but I did expect something like this.

Actually, I don't have a clue about the connections of the swiss army. Due the fact that we are neutral the connection to other armies are kinda restricted.
In fact you don't hear too much about swiss soldiers working together with other armies.

Are any Canadian manuals online available?

 

[pbi]

Are any Canadian manuals online available?

Yes, some new ones are available at http://armyapp.dnd.ca/ael/new-nouveau.asp. The indexes to the left side of the screen will help you find others. Cheers.

 

[Kampfhamster]

thanks, it looks like the technique the CF is using is a bit more complex.

 

[pbi]

Well, like most armies, there is what's in the book, and then there is what happens. This is why most doctrine and TTP writers die as bitter, frustrated men. Cheers.

 

[Danjanou]

Well, like most armies, there is what's in the book, and then there is what happens. This is why most doctrine and TTP writers die as bitter, frustrated men. Cheers.

 

Not speaking from experience there I hope boss.   8)

Good points on where our skills and drills may have developed. Years ago I came across in our pam library some old (late 1950's vintage) Australian and British patrolling pams (Malaysian Emergency) and the similarities between them and our then current (CFP 309(4)) pam were amazing. Only a couple of minor differences.

 

[pbi]

Not speaking from experience there I hope boss. 

Well.....I'm not dead---yet.

"...the similarities between them and our then current (CFP 309(4)) pam were amazing. Only a couple of minor differences..

If I am not mistaken, it was almost a direct lift. I know that for a while we actually used the Aussie pams. IMHO we don't pay near as much attention to patrolling as we used to (I stand to be corrected...) to me patrolling is the ultimate training vehicle and test of Inf skills, instead of rumbling around like some kind of horseless dragoon, piling out, then going back to sleep (or coma...) for another few hours. Cheers.

 

[Danjanou]

It probably was a direct lift, IIRC I used it when teaching more so than the issue one simply becaouse it was smaller and fit into a pocket easier.

I agree patrolling is one of our bread and butter skills and excellent for developing basic soldier skills (wpns handling, fieldcraft etc) and leadership skills.

Losing it as a basic skill set in the infantry will take a long time to replace.