Infantry Vehicles

[Halifax Tar]

Buying military equipment during a major land war has a negative effect on your purchasing power. Who knew?

Lets put the economy on a war footing Total war.

No more new phones and cars ect ect... I want guns, bombs, tanks, and ships

 

[ueo]

That's what the assault troop is for. If a cavalry organization needs infantry, they can be bolted on on a platoon basis. Dismounts for recces, OPs, security, etc are internal to Cav vehicles. If we assume 1 dismount per car, in the current 4 car troop, you get 16-20 dismounts per squadron and the assault troop can be sent to assist that squadron if the task requires it.

In terms of manning the aslt tp, we're still gaming that out in the RCAC but I've seen a few COAs. Needless to say, a Cav light or medium Cav squadron will have plenty of begrudging ground pounders if the need comes up and from what I've seen of the training and PT regimen they're running the pilot assault troops through in Gagetown (at least on paper) they'll be just fine at carrying out those mobility/counter-mobility/enabling tasks.

OMG gaming COAs? Read history! In the late 60s LCol Bill terry develpoed and institued an Assauly Tp. Loosely an inf pl with all the "old school" bits and pieces, Manned by PRes folks. It was based in Borden and sp by the HQ in tor (CMA?), Worked well, allowed to wither when Terry was posted. Hmmmm.

 

[PrairieFella]

OMG gaming COAs? Read history! In the late 60s LCol Bill terry develpoed and institued an Assauly Tp. Loosely an inf pl with all the "old school" bits and pieces, Manned by PRes folks. It was based in Borden and sp by the HQ in tor (CMA?), Worked well, allowed to wither when Terry was posted. Hmmmm.

Things have changed since the 60s.

 

[ueo]

Things have changed since the 60s.

Based on whats being discussed, don;t think so.

 

[markppcli]

OMG gaming COAs? Read history! In the late 60s LCol Bill terry develpoed and institued an Assauly Tp. Loosely an inf pl with all the "old school" bits and pieces, Manned by PRes folks. It was based in Borden and sp by the HQ in tor (CMA?), Worked well, allowed to wither when Terry was posted. Hmmmm.

The assault troop was based in Borden? Right that seems like a viable use. To what is being said gaming COAs is like to mean how exactly you find the PYs to make it a thing.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . . In the late 60s LCol Bill terry develpoed and institued an Assauly Tp. . .

The assault troop was based in Borden? Right that seems like a viable use. . . .

The RCAC School was in Borden in the 60s. Moved to Gagetown in 1970.

 

[FJAG]

The RCAC School was in Borden in the 60s. Moved to Gagetown in 1970.

Same for the infantry school. Borden then Gagetown in 1970.

 

[ueo]

The RCAC School was in Borden in the 60s. Moved to Gagetown in 1970.

This was late 60s and under what would become MTSC Borden.

 

[PrairieFella]

The assault troop was based in Borden? Right that seems like a viable use. To what is being said gaming COAs is like to mean how exactly you find the PYs to make it a thing.

PYs, kit, tasks, etc. They're running it live to see what fits basically.

 

[markppcli]

PYs, kit, tasks, etc. They're running it live to see what fits basically.

Yeah why just use that doctrine we had 15 years ago that’d be silly

 

[Blackadder1916]

Yeah why just use that doctrine we had 15 years ago that’d be silly

Can't lead change if it's already been changed.

 

[PrairieFella]

Yeah why just use that doctrine we had 15 years ago that’d be silly

I'll play devil's advocate and say a lot has changed since assault troops have been employed in the RCAC. Different vehicles, different doctrine, different enemy, etc.

 

[markppcli]

I'll play devil's advocate and say a lot has changed since assault troops have been employed in the RCAC. Different vehicles, different doctrine, different enemy, etc.

Well the old assault troop doctrine was so for fighting russia, and if I understand it they were largely in M113 / LAV anyways so not that different.

 

[KevinB]

Assault Troop to me sounds more like Infantry Company…
Very few Armoured Crewmen join the Armoured to play Infantryman.

 

[FJAG]

Assault Troop to me sounds more like Infantry Company…
Very few Armoured Crewmen join the Armoured to play Infantryman.

Nope. I remember this from my youth when we were taught about the assault troop which was part of the brigade recce squadron (which was part of the armoured regiment at the time). At that time the squadron had three seven-Lynx recce troops and an assault troop with 4 M113's all manned by armoured crewmen I know things have changed back and forth with that but late 60s early 70s it was part of the doctrine but frequently manned at nil strength because we had numbers issued back then too. I've looked around for something on it and the best I could find was in a thread on the Army.ca forum called "Assault Troop" which was started in 2002 at a time when there was major turmoil in the various establishments do to the army's "hollowness":

This is a subject near and dear to my heart. First off I have to clarify something that often gets messed up in translation.

Assault troop's primary role is "the ground element of a Reconnaissance Squadron" They are not pioneers, nor are they engineers.

The primary tasks of assault troop were dismounted Patrolling (Standing/Recce/LRRP and occasionally fighting patrols), OP's (of the mud variety in support of the deaf and sight limited technology of the Coyote), Vital Point Defence, counter recce operations (Anti armour ambushes, constructing minor obstacles), limited assault capability, NBCD Recce's and mine warfare (clearing and laying of... on a limited scale)

Obviously many of these tasks are done by both Engineers and Pioneers but it is the combination of all of them and their particular utility to a Recce Sqn 25-50Km in advance of the FLOT that made the elimination of the assault troop (in my opinion) the worst possible cut to the Recce Sqn/Regt.

Having said that though, although the visually challenged in HQ may have done away with assault troop, with the lack of "recce" platforms in the RCD (don't know about the other Regts) at least one Sqn (B) has a "Dismounted Troop". Except for some of the Gucci kit and training real assault troops get they will be doing much the same job.

On a personal note, being the new Tp WO has given me my "hat trick", that is to say I've held every position in an "assault troop" from Cpl to WO ;D

I'm not willing to let the Assault Troop idea (or much of the training) die and firmly believe, that sooner rather than later the Corps will realize it's mistake.

and this:

I recall, way back before the 76 Olympics, the Assault troop had no vehicles. Each Recce Troop had five Lynx and two M113's. When required, the troop would pick up a section of Assault Troopers and carry them to their task.

Post Olympics, the troops lost their M113 (temporarily). Assault troop gained four M113, and TOW troop had four M113. Yes, the Armour had a TOW troop before the Infantry did. After the Leo purchase was announced, it was decided that the Infantry would get the TOW along with the APC's.

For a different reason, each of the troops gained two M113 again. This time the M113's were representing a DFSV, which greatly altered our recce tactics. Tactics tend to change when a big gun is supporting your movement! That concept was shortlived, however. It was, and remains a valid concept, I think.

There's a wide variety discussion on that thread but what is clear to me is that the assault troop is not an infantry platoon doing an infantryman's job. It's more varied and clearly a job of supporting the recce effort with personnel who have a recce specialty plus additional skills.

 

[markppcli]

Nope. I remember this from my youth when we were taught about the assault troop which was part of the brigade recce squadron (which was part of the armoured regiment at the time). At that time the squadron had three seven-Lynx recce troops and an assault troop with 4 M113's all manned by armoured crewmen I know things have changed back and forth with that but late 60s early 70s it was part of the doctrine but frequently manned at nil strength because we had numbers issued back then too. I've looked around for something on it and the best I could find was in a thread on the Army.ca forum called "Assault Troop" which was started in 2002 at a time when there was major turmoil in the various establishments do to the army's "hollowness":


and this:


There's a wide variety discussion on that thread but what is clear to me is that the assault troop is not an infantry platoon doing an infantryman's job. It's more varied and clearly a job of supporting the recce effort with personnel who have a recce specialty plus additional skills.

I mean all of that sounds like an infantry platoon, but organic to the recce Sqn. Sounds like a great task for a reserve unit with 8 odd TAPVs to move 4 assault sections.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I mean all of that sounds like an infantry platoon, but organic to the recce Sqn. Sounds like a great task for a reserve unit with 8 odd TAPVs to move 4 assault sections.

Which nicely classifies the task as something the Reg F doesn't want to do, and the A Res would do poorly and get criticized for.

IMHO if it's worth doing by all means augment with ARes, otherwise don't do it at all.

 

[markppcli]

Which nicely classifies the task as something the Reg F doesn't want to do, and the A Res would do poorly and get criticized for.

IMHO if it's worth doing by all means augment with ARes, otherwise don't do it at all.

So what do you want then? There’s tasks the regular army doesn’t have the PYs for that various corps want to see done. Typically they’re adjacent or supporting: ie combat support platoon. Does the A Res what operational tasks they can provide sub units for, or does it only want jobs if seems worthy and equal? One of those is about meeting operational need the other is about ego.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I remember The RCD having an assault troop in the 1990s. They were a hybrid between pioneers and panzer grenadiers. They would create obstacles in the covering force battles and then set delaying ambushes. In the Defence, they could do rear area security or form part of the reserve. Handy bunch, they were…

 

[PrairieFella]

I remember The RCD having an assault troop in the 1990s. They were a hybrid between pioneers and panzer grenadiers. They would create obstacles in the covering force battles and then set delaying ambushes. In the Defence, they could do rear area security or form part of the reserve. Handy bunch, they were…

That's the idea. Mobility, counter-mobility, patrols, limited explosives, etc. They're to be used in support of the advance for the Lt and Med Cav Regts. There is a QSTP on ACIMS if you guys are interested. Seems like a cool go and will be a good capability for the armoured regiment.