Is there a difference between Corporal and Private?

[stellarpanther]

I'm just curious what other mbr's experience is between Cpl and Pte.  I know when I was posted on a base, there actually was a difference such as the Pte's normally got the crap duties before a Cpl etc.  Here in Ottawa there is no difference between a senior Cpl and a no hook Pte.  At least in my current unit.  Is this normal?  I bit my tongue as a no hook Pte, on the job for about 9 months sarcastically corrected me in front of the MCpl and then I was questioned today by the same Pte as to why I couldn't do something.  If there is no difference then why have the rank in the first place?  In case it matters, I'm referring to the RMS Clerk trade.

 

[Brasidas]

I'm just curious what other mbr's experience is between Cpl and Pte.  I know when I was posted on a base, there actually was a difference such as the Pte's normally got the crap duties before a Cpl etc.  Here in Ottawa there is no difference between a senior Cpl and a no hook Pte.  At least in my current unit.  Is this normal?  I bit my tongue as a no hook Pte, on the job for about 9 months sarcastically corrected me in front of the MCpl and then I was questioned today by the same Pte as to why I couldn't do something.  If there is no difference then why have the rank in the first place?  In case it matters, I'm referring to the RMS Clerk trade.

Short answer, there was a larger distinction under Hellyer which was erased in order to get treasury to allow a pay increase. It is certainly possible for someone not to get promoted to corporal, but its not that great of an achievement to get promoted. Experienced privates are commonly given leadership positions for some taskings, and some incompetent corporals are given maximum supervision five years after their promotion.

If you're getting attitude in front of your supervisors, and you aren't being allowed to take corrective action, you should be talking to your supervisors in private about why. Whomever's in charge should be keeping an eye on respect amongst their subordinates.

Either there is a problem with your unit or in your perception of what happened. Even if you are a lost cause as a leadership prospect in the eyes of your supervisors, contempt by a private for a corporal isn't helpful within a unit.

 

[kratz]

I've just retired as a clerk, when I started as an 841.

Customer Service = you always doing the right thing.

In the years since I joined, I have encountered the "Walmart shopper", who
did not like the clerk answer. It's our job to KNOW the answers, and STRIVE to
benefit the member. So rank in trade does not show as much as experience.

I've seen OS who are switched on and I have seen MS who are a bag of nails.
As for attitude from those "Walmart" customers when you are on the front line,
it is your "proving ground" in our trade, but you do NOT need to put up with abuse.

The title and location of your question is valid, but not in the worded right or in the right place for this site.

 

[PuckChaser]

Kratz, it looks like this is more of a clerk to clerk issue, not a customer service-type one.

 

[wildman0101]

Yeah, Time in. There was private, usually after basic, copy, Then you did your time in whatever Regt you were post to,,,,After 4  yrs service  depending you were promoted to Cpl.  Comprendre Amigo. Dumb  Ass

 

[x_para76]

Yeah, Time in. There was private, usually after basic, copy, Then you did your time in whatever Regt you were post to,,,,After 4  yrs service  depending you were promoted to Cpl.  Comprendre Amigo. Dumb  ***

WTF?!

 

[DAA]

I'm just curious what other mbr's experience is between Cpl and Pte.  I know when I was posted on a base, there actually was a difference such as the Pte's normally got the crap duties before a Cpl etc.  Here in Ottawa there is no difference between a senior Cpl and a no hook Pte.  At least in my current unit.  Is this normal?  I bit my tongue as a no hook Pte, on the job for about 9 months sarcastically corrected me in front of the MCpl and then I was questioned today by the same Pte as to why I couldn't do something.  If there is no difference then why have the rank in the first place?  In case it matters, I'm referring to the RMS Clerk trade.

Last I checked, a Cpl still out ranked a Pte.  Your MCpl should have set them straight, right then and there.  By not doing so, only serves to increase the problem as you have noticed.

The RMS Clk occupation is vast to say the least.  Not everyone can be an expert at everything and some individuals can and do master certain aspects, generally based on their assigned duties and the experience they gain, regardless of the rank level.  So it's not that uncommon for a Pte to know more than a Cpl at given times.  Heck, I've seen Pte's know more than Sgt's but only because of prior experience and it's to be expected in the RMS Clk occupation.

So when ever I have been asked a question such as "Do you know how to do X?" my normal response is "I've never had the opportunity or been employed in a situation where I had to do X.  If you have the time, I'd like to learn!"  It sure as heck beats "Can't help you, go ask the Sgt."

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yeah, Time in. There was private, usually after basic, copy, Then you did your time in whatever Regt you were post to,,,,After 4  yrs service  depending you were promoted to Cpl.  Comprendre Amigo. Dumb  ***

Best post of the day! 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'm just curious what other mbr's experience is between Cpl and Pte.  I know when I was posted on a base, there actually was a difference such as the Pte's normally got the crap duties before a Cpl etc.  Here in Ottawa there is no difference between a senior Cpl and a no hook Pte.  At least in my current unit.  Is this normal?

In black and white terms, yes a Corporal outranks a private.  By its QR & O definition, a Cpl is a Superior Officer to a Pte and is capable of giving lawful orders, whereas a Pte can't.  This is (IMO) obvious.  So, in the black and white of rank/seniority, there is the line.

If your unit/CofC isn't drawing a distinction between a Pte and a Cpl (a Jnr NCO), that might be part of the problem itself.  I don't care about trade nuances and all that crap, cut to the chase; Cpl's outrank Pte's, supported by the NDA and QR & O.  Full stop. 

I bit my tongue as a no hook Pte, on the job for about 9 months sarcastically corrected me in front of the MCpl

The sarcastically above is the trigger for me.  To quote my mom from many times when I was growing up "It's not what you say, it's how you say it". 

It is not at all abnormal for lower ranks to "know more about something" than a superior of theirs.  Subordinates routinely advise their superiors on various matters - admin, tactics, personnel issues, you name it.  Right?  Despite the 'more knowledge', there is still a professional way to go about it - this Pte (appears) to not have done so. 

What is the work environment usually like there?  All Rank/Lname basis?  First name between the Jnr Ranks up and down?  I ask because, IMO while it has nothing to do with the QR & O side, it has to do with the 'reality' side.  If things are loosy-goosy in the unit like that, it is more likely things like this will happen.  Doesn't make it right, but sets the tone. 

I would have said something to the Pte right then and there.  That's me.  I don't expect my Sgt to have to do my JNCO job for me if a Cpl or Pte gets out of line.  I also don't want my Sgt or above to THINK I can't handle simple situations like this.  That's me and based on my TI and experience.

The follow-on event with the Pte questioning you...that'd been it for me (again my  :2c.  I'd discuss it with the MCpl, and if he/she went with my recommendation, there'd be a 1 way convo from Cpl Me to Pte Bloggins - with the MCpl in the room as a witness and the Pte's next up in the CofC.  Wouldn't have to hammer the Pte into the ground, but whatever needed to be said in whatever tone that gets the point across - I've learned over the years not every nail needs a 10lb hammer to drive it home.

If there is no difference then why have the rank in the first place?  In case it matters, I'm referring to the RMS Clerk trade.

You might not like this part.  You said you bit your tonque.  Why?  You know as a Cpl, a Pte is a subordinate; if they are acting in a way you believe isn't correct IAW CAF customs, practices and regulations, isn't it YOUR job as a Jnr NCO to correct them and monitor their conduct after?

I know I've heard lots of people say they don't get treated any different as a Cpl - I say more Cpl's need to start ACTING like Jnr NCOs instead of "Super Privates" if they want their CofC to start viewing them as Cpl/JNCOs.  Its been my experience that you get treated not only on your rank, but how you carry yourself. 

If you want to be thought of as a Jnr NCO-type Cpl, carry and conduct yourself as one.  Doesn't mean you go all Gunnery-Sgt Hartman on everyone subordinate to you, but be professional about it, lead by example and enforce the appropriate standards from the people below you. 

I get the feeling you are a Cpl, but relatively knew to your rank.  If you are unsure of what to do, how to handle it, go to your MCpl and discuss.  The job of every leader in the CAF is to help develop the leadership potential in their subordinates. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Yeah, Time in. There was private, usually after basic, copy, Then you did your time in whatever Regt you were post to,,,,After 4  yrs service  depending you were promoted to Cpl.  Comprendre Amigo. Dumb  Ass

You have to remember, what is obvious to some of us guys who've are from a different generation and have been around the CF for years because things were black and white to us, well these days it seems there's a lot more gray in the minds of the younger/newer troops.

As kids, our generation did what we were told and when we were told to or else.  We were lots more disciplined.  We were taught to respect authority and "rank" in the family from the get-go most of the time.  I could imagine backtalking to my mother the way kids today to.  I'd of been to scared to.

When I did my Basic (Cornwallis, 1989), a Pte with a hook 'outranked' us.  I remember being told, very clearly, what would happen if we were insubordinate to anyone.  It was drilled into us, the discipline.  People who didn't follow orders got rucksack drill back then, or SI inspection (which was far worse).  Now?  We make them write essays or take the cellphone away for a few hours. 

The 'new' generation of recruits, Ptes and J NCOs aren't living in the same world that guys like you knew when you were working towards your Jacks.  :2c:

 

[wildman0101]

Eye Thank You-Bang On

 

[ModlrMike]

I'm sorry, I can't agree with the soft approach.

If he's insubordinate to a Cpl today, he'll do the same to MCpl or Sgt tomorrow. Now is the time to sort it out; before it really becomes a problem.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

And the soft approach was...

 

[stellarpanther]

I get the feeling you are a Cpl, but relatively knew to your rank.  If you are unsure of what to do, how to handle it, go to your MCpl and discuss.  The job of every leader in the CAF is to help develop the leadership potential in their subordinates.

I've been a corporal for a few years but this is the first time I've actually experienced this.  In previous units that had Pte's, the Pte's always listened to what the Cpl's said and everything went smooth.  In a trade where we all work together closely in an office setting, I certainly would not expect "yes Cpl, no Cpl" but at the same time, a fairly new Pte doesn't have the right to try putting me in my place or question me.  I think the problem is, I assumed the MCpl would have said something and since she didn't, I didn't feel I should have either.  Talking to a couple of the other Cpl's today, they all said this isn't new and she isn't the only one.  Apparently most of the Pte's have this attitude and the CoC ignores it because they think it will negatively affect moral on the floor.

 

[George Wallace]

I've been a corporal for a few years but this is the first time I've actually experienced this.  In previous units that had Pte's, the Pte's always listened to what the Cpl's said and everything went smooth.  In a trade where we all work together closely in an office setting, I certainly would not expect "yes Cpl, no Cpl" but at the same time, a fairly new Pte doesn't have the right to try putting me in my place or question me.  I think the problem is, I assumed the MCpl would have said something and since she didn't, I didn't feel I should have either.  Talking to a couple of the other Cpl's today, they all said this isn't new and she isn't the only one.  Apparently most of the Pte's have this attitude and the CoC ignores it because they think it will negatively affect moral on the floor.

Not good at all.  That BS should not happen.  It not only reflects badly on the leadership skills of that MCpl, but all above her.  It also allows bad attitudes to fester and grow in her subordinates.  This goes against all the rules of military discipline that we have developed over the centuries.  Not a good thing.  Those people will be posted to other units and spread their insubordinate attitudes as they go, poisoning the workplaces they occupy.

 

[The_Falcon]

I'd would sort the Pte's out, politely but firmly, and try and set the tone by being more formal with your own superiors. If anyone says anything, tell them you prefer working in a more professional work environment.  It may not change everything wholesale, but may  change how people interact with you. 

When I was working full time in my unit, the whole full-time staff were pretty informal during the day (ie first names between all ranks except officers), on admin/parade nights when others (especially Pte/Cpls) were around it was back to using rank.  Despite the informality during the day, no one ever presumed they were equal to someone with a higher rank, just because we used first names.

 

[CountDC]

bit late to the game but just have to as it is the trade.

No that is not acceptable and yes you and the other Cpls have to start the ball rolling as the MCpl obviously isn't. if you don't then this will follow you through out your career.  As you move along so will these Ptes and they will be your subordinates as you become MCpls and Sgts.  Do you really want to have to deal with it then?  Unfortunately this is common in Ottawa as they have a lot of new Ptes posted direct from the School so every rotation of clks has the same problem as the ones already there pass it on.  Personally I think they need to stop posting the Ptes from the school to Ottawa and send them to the units to get wet first.

If you use first names in the office - stop.  Address everyone by rank.  Establish that distinction with everyone so it is made clear to them you are strong into the rank structure. Hell - everyone here regardless of rank addresses me by my rank.

Talk to your CofC and clearly voice that you are not impressed with the attitude of the Ptes towards the Cpls (this would work best if you could convince your counterparts to do it as a group but do it on your own if they won't).  As a Cpl in the RMS Trade you are most certainly a Jr NCO and expected to lead.  If I had been your MCpl I would have corrected you for not correcting the Pte. Your post shows 3 people that didn't do their job, none of you respected the rank.  The Pte was out of bounds, you didn't step up and the MCpl ignored an obvious issue (or perhaps chose to force you to deal with it rather than getting her hands dirty).  Even if supervising you in a task that you are just learning they should be addressing you properly.

 

[x_para76]

Out of curiosity can a corporal lay a charge against a private? If no why not?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Out of curiosity can a corporal lay a charge against a private? If no why not?

I'll chime in "no".  There are rules and regs who can lay/prefer charges, and the pers authorized to are usually detailed in ROs/Standing Os/Sqn Os.  They can recommend, they can give lawful orders, etc but I believe the only Cpl that could lay a charge would be a badged MP in CFNIS.

I've recommended charges before as a SNCO but it was the Sgt-Major who laid them.

 

[cupper]

Talking to a couple of the other Cpl's today, they all said this isn't new and she isn't the only one.  Apparently most of the Pte's have this attitude and the CoC ignores it because they think it will negatively affect moral on the floor.

Sorry, I had an involuntary snort when I read this.

It's obvious that the CoC has missed the point, because it already appears to have had a negative effect upon morale - of the Corporals. It is a shame that they do not see that by appeasing the sensitivities of the Privates, they have created a toxic environment which has a detrimental effect upon overall morale.