LGBTQ Stuff (split from other political threads)

[Kirkhill]

... what about serious people who are struggling with whats going on inside their own heads? ....

Indeed.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I keep hearing "brainwashing".......how many courses do the hetrosexual folks on here figure they'd need to take before they'd be homosexual??

Ask Brian and David Reimer.

This is children we are talking about not adults. Stories are starting to come out of now adults who realized none of this applied to them but unfortunately for some of them it is after surgeries or other negative things have happened to them. I think over the next decade there will be lots of case studies for this behaviour.

How many times does someone need to read from the Quran to you to make you a muslim? Would it be much easier to convert a child or a adult?

Children are impressionable. It’s very easy to mess with a childs mind. What is taught needs to be carefully thought through as otherwise you can really warp their world view without much effort. Look at the children in the USSR which were taught to turn their parents in for anti-communist activities and thoughts.

All sorts of evidence of adults who have turned away from what they were taught as a child, be it religion, culture, or in this case sexuality. Children are malleable. It doesn’t take a ton to really mess with their heads.

Unlike most on here I was in high school when they really started to push the gay movement, and there wasn’t much of a issue then. That being said I can see how it has evolved into what it is now with the zealots and refusal to tolerate anything other than their constantly moving goalposts.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Ask Brian and David Reimer.

Didnt know this tragic story but just did a quick scan, and thank you for proving what I was saying.....all that done to him, and it still couldn't make him want to change teams.

 

[Lumber]

My problem with the LGBTQ debate is we have so called 'experts' on both sides who really are not qualified to make statements about the medical realities.

The "twittersphere" may be full of "experts", but there are plenty of actual experts saying that gender dysphoria is not an illness, and that discussing ideas such as homosexuality and transgenderism in school is a good idea.

I personally don't understand trans, and I may have a negative mindset towards it, but if my child felt they are trans and discussed it with their teacher. I would want to be a part of that conversation so I can support them. Keeping me out of the loop will not really give me a chance to help my child feel more accepted.

Well allow me to try and explain it to you. Next to homosexuality, transgenderism should be the easiest to understand and accept, because even if you have bigoted views (not saying YOU do, I mean the general "you"), you can still accept the reality of what transgendered people are going through, and act accordingly (i.e. act like a good person).

A transgender person believes that the gender that they they "feel" internally is opposite to their sex at birth. Here is why this is easy to
"accept":
a. you can believe that gender and sex are independent, and can be opposite of each other, and therefore gender dysphoria is something that can clearly happen from time to time (i.e while rare, is nonetheless "normal");
b. you can believe the above, but also believe that gender is not binary, but rather a spectrum... or not;
c. you can believe any of the above, but also believe that gender is wholly or partly a social construct (not just genetic)... or not;
d. OR, you can believe none of that, that gender and sex are not independent, and/or that gender is binary, and/or that gender is genetic, and therefore if any of this "confusion" is taking place (i.e. gender dysphoria) then its a mental disorder.

In any case, it doesn't matter what you believe, because what you have is a person who themselves believes that their gender and sex don't match, and therefore is experiencing mental distress, both from the internal sense of misalignment, but also (and probably more so) from the external social stigma of being transgender and "different".

So what are you suppose to do with someone who's sad and distressed? You act nice to them and give them support. If the support they need is for your to accept who they are, then do that. It doesn't matter which of the cases above (a thru d) is true; if you refuse to help them* because you don't believe them, that just makes you a fucking asshole. *also, helping them does not include trying to "change their minds". That's like conversion therapy.

 

[OldSolduer]

I would like to add this:

If any one other than immediate family tells your kids to keep secrets from their parents in my mind that is a red flag. Many LEOs have said this including several criminal profilers.

So take care. Be careful of who you trust.

 

[Lumber]

I would like to add this:

If any one other than immediate family tells your kids to keep secrets from their parents in my mind that is a red flag. Many LEOs have said this including several criminal profilers.

So take care. Be careful of who you trust.

Yes there's a new thing called "tricky people" and the idea is to stop teaching "stranger danger" and instead teach kids to be aware of "tricking people", and it makes a LOT of sense. Most strangers are good honest people and will help a child in need, where as "tricky people" are people close to children who may use their relationship to exploit/abuse the children (they could be strangers too, the point is to teach your kids to look for the signs):

Teaching about “Tricky People” vs. “Stranger Danger”

 

[Lumber]

Ask Brian and David Reimer.

This is children we are talking about not adults. Stories are starting to come out of now adults who realized none of this applied to them but unfortunately for some of them it is after surgeries or other negative things have happened to them. I think over the next decade there will be lots of case studies for this behaviour.

How many times does someone need to read from the Quran to you to make you a muslim? Would it be much easier to convert a child or a adult?

Children are impressionable. It’s very easy to mess with a childs mind. What is taught needs to be carefully thought through as otherwise you can really warp their world view without much effort. Look at the children in the USSR which were taught to turn their parents in for anti-communist activities and thoughts.

All sorts of evidence of adults who have turned away from what they were taught as a child, be it religion, culture, or in this case sexuality. Children are malleable. It doesn’t take a ton to really mess with their heads.

Unlike most on here I was in high school when they really started to push the gay movement, and there wasn’t much of a issue then. That being said I can see how it has evolved into what it is now with the zealots and refusal to tolerate anything other than their constantly moving goalposts.

You guys really like pulling out the most public and extreme cases, and completely ignore the huge body of study on these matters.

The case of Brian and David Reimer is NOT the same as what "anti-trans in the classroom" people are alluding to when they talk about the potential of "brainwashing" children. The later are worried that simply talking about and discussing transgenderism will lead to kids becoming transgender, where is in the Brian and David Reimer case, health professional and their parents actively tried to convince them that they were girls, not boys.

 

[Lumber]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong it may be.

"I want all children, especially those at highest risk of discrimination and bullying, to feel safe and accepted by everyone in society," shouldn't be an opinion, and you shouldn't be bothered by the idea.

 

[suffolkowner]

The "twittersphere" may be full of "experts", but there are plenty of actual experts saying that gender dysphoria is not an illness, and that discussing ideas such as homosexuality and transgenderism in school is a good idea.



Well allow me to try and explain it to you. Next to homosexuality, transgenderism should be the easiest to understand and accept, because even if you have bigoted views (not saying YOU do, I mean the general "you"), you can still accept the reality of what transgendered people are going through, and act accordingly (i.e. act like a good person).

A transgender person believes that the gender that they they "feel" internally is opposite to their sex at birth. Here is why this is easy to
"accept":
a. you can believe that gender and sex are independent, and can be opposite of each other, and that gender , and therefore gender dysphoria is something that can clearly happen from time to time (i.e while rare, is nonetheless "normal");
b. you can believe the above, but also believe that gender is not binary, but rather a spectrum... or not;
c. you can believe any of the above, but also believe that gender is wholly or partly a social construct (not just genetic)... or not;
d. OR, you can believe none of that, that gender and sex are not independent, and/or that gender is binary, and/or that gender is genetic, and therefore if any of this "confusion" is taking place (i.e. gender dysphoria) then its a mental disorder.

In any case, it doesn't matter what you believe, because what you have is a person who themselves believes that their gender and sex don't match, and therefore is experiencing mental distress, both from the internal sense of misalignment, but also (and probably more so) from the external social stigma of being transgender and "different".

So what are you suppose to do with someone who's sad and distressed? You act nice to them and give them support. If the support they need is for your to accept who they are, then do that. It doesn't matter which of the cases above (a thru c) is true; if you refuse to help them* because you don't believe them, that just makes you a fucking asshole. *also, helping them does not include trying to "change their minds. that's like conversion therapy.

one of the many questions I have

Do people actually feel their sex or gender in their mind? What does that mean? Or is it only something that is obvious if there is a mismatch?

 

[gryphonv]

The "twittersphere" may be full of "experts", but there are plenty of actual experts saying that gender dysphoria is not an illness, and that discussing ideas such as homosexuality and transgenderism in school is a good idea.

I'm actually not against discussing the ideas.

I am against using medication or surgery to gender affirm before the person is a legal adult.


I honestly feel someone who is not legally an adult is not mentally developed enough to make those decisions. Decisions that have very long term consequence and will most likely be irreversible.

I know personally if I did everything I wanted to do as a child, no matter how strongly I felt I needed to do something. I wouldn't of had a very productive life as an adult.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

You guys

Careful lad, you may want to walk that one back.

 

[OldSolduer]

"I want all children, especially those at highest risk of discrimination and bullying, to feel safe and accepted by everyone in society," shouldn't be an opinion, and you shouldn't be bothered by the idea.

You make an assumption about my beliefs. The idea you quoted doesn’t bother me in the least.

So get off your high horse. I have a nephew that was my niece, and that happened about 10 years ago.

Take a chill pill and relax.

 

[YZT580]

I'm actually not against discussing the ideas.

I am against using medication or surgery to gender affirm before the person is a legal adult.


I honestly feel someone who is not legally an adult is not mentally developed enough to make those decisions. Decisions that have very long term consequence and will most likely be irreversible.

I know personally if I did everything I wanted to do as a child, no matter how strongly I felt I needed to do something. I wouldn't of had a very productive life as an adult.

have a brother that was messed up as a teen to the point of suicide (almost). Turns out that hormones had gone crazy. He hit 18 and all his problems magically vanished and stayed gone. So the above advice is totally sound. Surgery is a very final decision and shouldn't be undertaken without careful counselling. By careful I mean by people who are not biased in thought before they start and those are hard to find. They certainly are not found in the average school guidance department.

 

[Lumber]

Careful lad, you may want to walk that one back.

I can no longer edit it, but I was referring to him and Tactical Tea only.

 

[KevinB]

have a brother that was messed up as a teen to the point of suicide (almost). Turns out that hormones had gone crazy. He hit 18 and all his problems magically vanished and stayed gone. So the above advice is totally sound. Surgery is a very final decision and shouldn't be undertaken without careful counselling. By careful I mean by people who are not biased in thought before they start and those are hard to find. They certainly are not found in the average school guidance department.

There are certain age restrictions for very valid reasons.
We don’t let kids drink alcohol, own guns, vote, or drive (okay that’s 16) for very legitimate reasons.

How on earth do some people think that sexuality and gender can be decided earlier than that?

 

[Halifax Tar]

How on earth do some people think that sexuality and gender can be decided earlier than that?

Feelings/emotions and political motivations.

 

[KevinB]

Feelings/emotions and political motivations.

I probably should have included rationally in my comment

 

[Halifax Tar]

I probably should have included rationally in my comment

I have a 10 year old who cant remember to brush her teeth... My job is to remind her and make sure they keep up on their personal hygiene.

Anyone who thinks they can decide their gender assignment or pronouns and it should be taken seriously I look at suspiciously, and I want them no where near my child.

If she comes to me when she's 18 +1 Day and says "Dad, I feel like I'm XYZ" I will tell them, I love them and I support them no matter what path they travel down. Until then my wife and I need to be deeply involved in any decisions about her, and we will have the final say.

 

[FSTO]

This debate has gotten to the point that from one side, if you as a parent want to have information about what is going on at the school you are a homicidal fascist. And from the other, the schools today is a den of gender fluid grooming and there are surgical teams waiting to change the gender of your child as soon as they can.

All nuance has been lost. I'm almost glad I don't have any grand kids.

 

[IKnowNothing]

In any case, it doesn't matter what you believe, because what you have is a person who themselves believes that their gender and sex don't match, and therefore is experiencing mental distress, both from the internal sense of misalignment, but also (and probably more so) from the external social stigma of being transgender and "different".

So what are you suppose to do with someone who's sad and distressed? You act nice to them and give them support. If the support they need is for your to accept who they are, then do that. It doesn't matter which of the cases above (a thru d) is true; if you refuse to help them* because you don't believe them, that just makes you a fucking asshole. *also, helping them does not include trying to "change their minds". That's like conversion therapy.

See, the bold is where I take issue, and with the pedantic doublespeak that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness/condition/disorder/whathave you.

It's ideologically driven dogma based on the bolded false equivalency/ the fear of the slippery slope to that false equivalency. But is is a false equivalency- gender dysphoria and homosexuality are fundamentally different things.

In a word without homophobia, where homosexuality is completely de-stigmatized- there is no mental distress, no internal friction point, nothing to treat. Ergo- conversion therapy serves no/zero purpose other than bully people into a heteronormative box - an expression of bigotry

In a world without transphobia, where transgenderism is completely de-stigmatized- gender dysphoria creates a status of mental distress, requiring treatment to alleviate. You can treat the body to align with mind, or the mind to align with the body- both -theoretically- are viable courses to address the source of internal friction and remove the mental distress. One of these has been demonized because of the aforementioned false equivalency. There is no logical rationale to reconcile "gender affirming care is healthcare" and "gender dysphoria is not a mental illness/disorder," and frankly the doublespeak is insulting and detrimental to the overall de-stigmatization of mental illness as a whole.


Above all else, all people deserve to be treated with compassion. This is a healthcare issue, it should not be a political one.

• Patients and doctors should be free to pursue gender affirming care as current best practice treatment, without fear of governmental reprisal or social ostracization
• Doctors and researchers should be free to ethically investigate alternative, less invasive treatment methods, without fear of governmental reprisal or social ostracization