Manitoba bus stabbing/ beheading

[EW]

Prove it. Until you do, I'll call you an idiot.

Uhhh yeah, okay.  You call me whatever you want to. 

So you want me to "..prove it..," and continue the circular argument that leads nowhere?  Doesn't change the fact that arming the citizenry can have negative as well as positive possible outcomes.  Someone blindly asserting that if one of the passengers had a firearm that (s)he would have put this monster down.  Totally ignores that fact that this fella could have used the same avenue to get a weapon.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

.  Totally ignores that fact that this fella could have used the same avenue to get a weapon.

Actually, you are totally ignoring the fact that a non-law abiding citizen can just about get a handgun anywhere right at this very moment........................and 99% of our population can't. [being law abiding and all that]

 

[old medic]

He was taken into custody after attempting to jump out one of the bus windows about 0130 hours.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2008/07/31/greyhound-transcanada.html

RCMP crisis negotiators communicated with the suspect for several hours while he was on the bus. Around 1:30 a.m., he attempted to jump from a bus window and was subdued and arrested, RCMP said.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

He was taken into custody after attempting to jump out one of the bus windows about 0130 hours.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2008/07/31/greyhound-transcanada.html

So he finally figured it out : Proves what?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Uhhh yeah, okay.  You call me whatever you want to. 

So you want me to "..prove it..," and continue the circular argument that leads nowhere?  Doesn't change the fact that arming the citizenry can have negative as well as positive possible outcomes.  Someone blindly asserting that if one of the passengers had a firearm that (s)he would have put this monster down.  Totally ignores that fact that this fella could have used the same avenue to get a weapon.

Give me a break. If you can't put forward a reasoned and researched opinion for discussion, you may not be an idiot, but you're perspecitive, in this forum, becomes irrelevant and not worth debate or retort.

Excuse me for jumping to conclusions.

 

[old medic]

So he finally figured it out : Proves what?

After I posted that, I took a look at the Canadian Press copy of the RCMP news conference.
In that, they say the suspect broke a window then tried to jump out.  So I don't think
he ever figured out the window releases.

 

[Snafu-Bar]

Regardless, Li should have been put down on the spot, instead society will coddle him and spend millions on him in attempts to do the right thing.

As far as i'm concerned it's justification for a hanging or a firing squad, no life centence, no chance for parole and no fkn sympathy.  :skull:


Again this is just my opinion.


Cheers.

 

[MG34]

I have to question the actions of of the other passangers, they ran like the sheep 90% of Canadians are. How anyone can run away instead of taking action is beyond me.Truly a disgusting statement on how cowardly and weak the citizens of this nation have become.

 

[Mike Baker]

I have to question the actions of of the other passangers, they ran like the sheep 90% of Canadians are. How anyone can run away instead of taking action is beyond me.Truly a disgusting statement on how cowardly and weak the citizens of this nation have become.

I have to agree with you on this.

Although I am still young, I really do think that our society has gotten too soft, where much of the population has become 'sheep' if you will, where they avoid bad things, and go with everyone else. This is a prime example of how bad things have become. If I was a family member of this poor lad, I would sure as hell be pretty upset since everyone else on the bus ran off, not bothering to help him. Sure, after a few well placed blows with the knife he was probably gone, but it could have save him from being beheaded and stabbed much more, if someone would have decided that this monster needed to be stopped.

But we can't change the past now can we, only change things that we do to change the future.

-Deadpan

 

[Greymatters]

I have to question the actions of of the other passangers, they ran like the sheep 90% of Canadians are. How anyone can run away instead of taking action is beyond me.Truly a disgusting statement on how cowardly and weak the citizens of this nation have become.

The reason for this falls into the old saying "train like you fight".  Nowadays,  we are sent the same message: "don't use violence'; 'let the proper authorities handle the situation'; 'you don't have the right to physically handle another person no matter that they did'; 'you don't have the right to protect yourself or your family, wait for trained persons to deal with the situation'.

Herosim is dead.  Initiative has been crushed.  The concept of acting out goodwill or societal stewardship, preserving life or preventing further violence, has been strangled by politics and bureaucracy.  No one is taught to deal with a crisis situation where there is no law enforcement present or able to respond quickly.  Everyone is taught that violence is not a solution and there are harsh penalties for using force if you aren't carrying a badge or you can be sued in court.  Its no surprise that the first response for every passenger is to get away. 

The ones who stand and deal with the situation are the ones who have been trained to stand and deal with a situation - in this country that usually means only LEOs, security and serving/former CF members - a very small percentage of the population.       

 

[George Wallace]

Aren't "Hindsight" and "Armchair Generaling" great?    :

 

[Greymatters]

You disagree?

 

[George Wallace]

You disagree?

I think some have stated it quite logically already, after listening to some of the comments from passengers on the bus.  The more sensible and quickest to react, hustled the remainder of the passengers off the bus after assessing the situation.  Once getting the passengers off the bus, the Driver, a passenger and a Trucker disabled the bus and then entered the bus to try a rescue of the victim, only to realize it was too late and there was nothing they could do for him, nor could they take on an armed madman.  They did their best to secure the bus until police arrived.  As this was in the middle of the Prairie, someone else had the presence of mind to call the Police in a timely manner.  I would say the these people handled themselves quite well in a very unusual and tragic event.

What else do you people expect of the passengers and Driver?  What other measures do you think could have REASONABLY been in effect to prevent such a tragedy?  How often do you think an act like this is to occur again? 

So YES.......Aren't "Hindsight" and "Armchair Generaling" great?   :

 

[Greymatters]

Hmmm... I think you took my post the wrong way.  I wasnt categorizing the actions of every person on that particular bus as I wasnt there and didnt see how each person reacted.  My comment was more on our society in general.  But if you want to discuss armchair generals, that tends to apply to most everyone when discussing past events...

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I have to question the actions of of the other passangers, they ran like the sheep 90% of Canadians are. How anyone can run away instead of taking action is beyond me.Truly a disgusting statement on how cowardly and weak the citizens of this nation have become.

..and I totally disagree with you.  The main job in this situation would be to save the most possible from the threat of DEADLY FORCE, and then make an assesment.

You are 100% wrong about the actions that they took.........

 

[Neill McKay]

Just as there's a bad side to due process there's also a good side to vigilante justice.  The argument about 'innocent' people being attacked is invalid since innocent people get convicted by due process anyway.

No, it's quite a valid argument against vigilante justice.  The courts have safeguards in place to avoid convicting innocent people.  In fact, the entire justice system is structured that way, with the burden of proof on the prosecution and the belief that it's far better to let a criminal go free than to convict an innocent person.

A mob of vigilantes has no such safeguards, nor has it any accountability when it gets it wrong (as the justice system does).

Too bad the cops couldn't have seen fit to 'discharge their sidearms in self-defence'. 

I've never been a cop so I'm hardly an expert but I suspect that shooting anyone is just about the last thing most cops ever want to do, regardless of whether it's deserved.

 

[EW]

The reason for this falls into the old saying "train like you fight".  Nowadays,  we are sent the same message: "don't use violence'; 'let the proper authorities handle the situation'; 'you don't have the right to physically handle another person no matter that they did'; 'you don't have the right to protect yourself or your family, wait for trained persons to deal with the situation'.

Herosim is dead.  Initiative has been crushed.  The concept of acting out goodwill or societal stewardship, preserving life or preventing further violence, has been strangled by politics and bureaucracy.  No one is taught to deal with a crisis situation where there is no law enforcement present or able to respond quickly.  Everyone is taught that violence is not a solution and there are harsh penalties for using force if you aren't carrying a badge or you can be sued in court.  Its no surprise that the first response for every passenger is to get away. 

The ones who stand and deal with the situation are the ones who have been trained to stand and deal with a situation - in this country that usually means only LEOs, security and serving/former CF members - a very small percentage of the population.       

You can find plenty of examples of average Canadians engaging a criminal.  The police in Vancouver recently praised a couple of different incidents of citizens getting involved when the situation was so grave that waiting for first responders could have led to loss of life.  One was http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=3673afae-7cd9-4954-91ec-cfbe270761a1.  Another recent example of people getting involved, and not just reporting the crime and waiting for the cops to do all the work-  http://www.nationalpost.com/rss/story.html?id=659537

Not hard to find examples of situations where good Samaritans also got involved, found themselves over their heads and paid a price for it http://www.thestar.com/Crime/article/420014
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/editorials/story.html?id=ec1c3327-92a8-4219-b482-a8dfa9467a03

 

[Good2Golf]

Just something to think about, but for all those folks questioning the actions of the other passengers, in particular by describing them as "cowardly", the fact that the bus was evacuated in an effective manner and secured, and a group went back in to take further action speaks volumes.  Imagine another outcome: passengers get into a wrestling match with the assailant, more people are injured or killed, driver incapacitated or worse.

I am rather tired of hearing groups, in particular it seems that much criticism comes from South of the border, bemoan the lack of action by Canadians, and then taking things on an ugly tangential twist thereafter regarding society as a whole.  Why don't those critiquing this situation also tell us why , on October 3, 2001, upstanding American citizens took little action to stop an assailant from slitting the throat of the driver of a Greyhound bus in Tennessee, the resulting loss of control and crash killing six passengers and the attacker?  Should we even start asking why more action wasn't taken by bystanders in many of the attacks around our nations?  High school shootings, etc...?

That some people have the nerve to critique that actions of others when they weren't there themselves to see what actually took place...that takes gall!  I find it almost laughable listening to someone state how they would have taken actions to stop the attack....those are just words, and I don't consider it anything more than bluster!  No one knows how they would truly act in such a situation until you were actually in such a situation.

I don't know any of the medical details of the injuries, but I suspect that after the first few strikes, there was little that could have been done to save the victim.  That everyone else is alive and uninjured, and the assailant was captured is all that someone could hope for.

G2G

 

[observor 69]

Thanks for that G2G. I haven't got the patience or time to spend dealing with such poorly thoughtout responses. 

 

[Snafu-Bar]

I don't know any of the medical details of the injuries, but I suspect that after the first few strikes, there was little that could have been done to save the victim.  That everyone else is alive and uninjured, and the assailant was captured is all that someone could hope for.

G2G
[/quote]



We could hope for the death penalty to keep people like Li from breathing another breath AFTER thier actions. there is ALWAYS more to hope for.

Cheers.