Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

[Colin Parkinson]

Why/how was true icebreaker a no go, again?

Since they are very close in spec to the 1100 Class light icebreaker/buoy tenders, I will call them light icebreaker as well. They are not really designed for ramming a channel through new ice, day in and day out like the CCG vessels, but they can do it for awhile.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Well when you promote to Major a full three years ahead of their equivalent counterparts in the RCN and RCAF that's what happens. It's the Russian strategy, swamp them with numbers and you'll win the day!

Seriously though, this NATO pivot to the Pacific is going to make the army primary for Europe and the RCN Primary for the Pacific. I would not be surprised if we started seeing east coast frigates doing OP PROJECTION deployments or at the very least port visits from India to Singapore/Australia.

In the Army's defense leading unit PT is about the pinnacle for most of their leaders. And they will argue tooth and nail that it's a true measure of leadership.

 

[quadrapiper]

It is almost like the RCAF had a good idea WRT giving junior ranks alot of responsibility….

Wonder how directly comparable the two are.

 

[CBH99]

It is almost like the RCAF had a good idea WRT giving junior ranks alot of responsibility….

Absolutely.

I know a ton of people, myself included, who left precisely because I was treated like a child despite 2 tours, some personal travel to hotspots (at the time), and working in emergency services.

If people were given a responsibility or series of things they had to 'own' - it wouldn't the Army's retention problem

 

[Grimey]

Any replacement is at least 10 years away which is the ABS assessment of how long they'll last.

ABS? Absolute best scenario?

 

[Underway]

ABS? Absolute best scenario?

Something like that. Kingstons are in good shape but we don't want to put them into bad shape.

Problem is, unless we start the procurement process now we'll be late. It will take about 5-7 years to get it going. And the yards are basically full. Davie might be available but they were unable to meet their contract on St. John's and there is a lot of work left to do (and fix).

 

[YZT580]

Something like that. Kingstons are in good shape but we don't want to put them into bad shape.

Problem is, unless we start the procurement process now we'll be late. It will take about 5-7 years to get it going. And the yards are basically full. Davie might be available but they were unable to meet their contract on St. John's and there is a lot of work left to do (and fix).

Would they be considered a warship and thus fall under the Irving umbrella or could they be included in the 'others' category which would leave them open for other yards to bid on.

 

[Navy_Pete]

ABS? Absolute best scenario?

American Bureau of Shipping; they are the classification society doing the in service certification for the non-combatants. I think they just looked at the hull, but not as confident with the components, as some genius decided 15 years ago to mix steel pipe with bronze valves on the sea water system, and weirdly there are corrosion issues. (Funny aside, they tried to pass it over to the normal SWS LCMM 5 years later and basically were told they broke it, they bought it).

NSS applies to anything over 1000 tonnes; anything underneath that for new builds the NSS yards are excluded (which would include Davie if they get brought in officially).

 

[GR66]

Something like that. Kingstons are in good shape but we don't want to put them into bad shape.

Problem is, unless we start the procurement process now we'll be late. It will take about 5-7 years to get it going. And the yards are basically full. Davie might be available but they were unable to meet their contract on St. John's and there is a lot of work left to do (and fix).

Perhaps it would be a good idea to get observer status of some sort on the European Patrol Corvette (EPC) program. They're looking at a couple of variants including one with 10,000nm range which might be a good fit for Canada. Target for contract signing is 2025 with first deliveries around 2030.

Edit: Another option would be to stick with BAE and go with their 99m Corvette design (Khareef Class)

 

[TacticalTea]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to get observer status of some sort on the European Patrol Corvette (EPC) program. They're looking at a couple of variants including one with 10,000nm range which might be a good fit for Canada. Target for contract signing is 2025 with first deliveries around 2030.

Edit: Another option would be to stick with BAE and go with their 99m Corvette design (Khareef Class)

Matches speed, range and displacement expectations, varied armament configurations, borne out of an allied project set to deliver just about when we'd need it, and a flight deck that permits a wide range of operations including those involving the increasingly relevant drone warfare.

Very nice.

 

[Underway]

Been down the road before. Corvette is a frigate with all the cost and none of the survivability. An Patrol Class is where we need to go. Actually I think with UXV's we are likey entering an age where we start getting new ship classes/classifications.

 

[TacticalTea]

.

 

[Stoker]

Something like that. Kingstons are in good shape but we don't want to put them into bad shape.

Problem is, unless we start the procurement process now we'll be late. It will take about 5-7 years to get it going. And the yards are basically full. Davie might be available but they were unable to meet their contract on St. John's and there is a lot of work left to do (and fix).

That would be a great retirement posting for me at the replacement project for the Kingston Class

 

[TacticalTea]

That would be a great retirement posting for me at the replacement project for the Kingston Class

I know a good amount of DND positions are filled by prior service folks - or sometimes even created for them - but do we know if that's the bulk of them? I'm curious about how optimized things are with regards to that sort of transition. I'm not too familiar.

Sorry for the thread derail, I won't comment at length on this in here, but given that we're on the topic, if anyone has pertinent input on this, I'd love to hear it.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I know a good amount of DND positions are filled by prior service folks - or sometimes even created for them - but do we know if that's the bulk of them? I'm curious about how optimized things are with regards to that sort of transition. I'm not too familiar.

Sorry for the thread derail, I won't comment at length on this in here, but given that we're on the topic, if anyone has pertinent input on this, I'd love to hear it.

Yes, it's the bulk of them on the PMO side (which includes ISED and PSPC pers). A lot of the civilians end up as retired military, but generally everyone is having problems finding people anyway, and there is a SWE freeze atm.

I think the short term will be to justify why we actually need them and get it into the strategic plan to get project funding, which has a lot of hoops.

I can't see the MCDVs still being around though by the time we would get them, even if someone started it tomorrow. It's a 10 year horizon project unless the Cabinet basically kicks TBS/PSPC/ISED etc in the ass and gets most of the hurdles dropped. I can't see that happening as there is zero government priority for it now, and we also really need to spool up a sub replacement project as well which would need to do the same thing (with the same resources).

 

[dapaterson]

There are many competing needs, and above forecast inflation is going to start manifesting in current projects as something they can't mitigate, even with contingency funds.

There are significant Defence investments occurring (CSC, JSS, NGFC, MRTT come to mind)... as you noted, it's getting hard to fill positions to manage the acquisitions already underway, let alone others that are required and desired.

 

[Good2Golf]

It's a 10 year horizon project unless the Cabinet basically kicks TBS/PSPC/ISED etc in the ass and gets most of the hurdles dropped. I can't see that happening as there is zero government priority for it now, and we also really need to spool up a sub replacement project as well which would need to do the same thing (with the same resources).

Cabinet doesn’t kick TBS in the ass…TBS is Cabinet’s (PMO’s) programme throttle.

 

[Underway]

Cabinet doesn’t kick TBS in the ass…TBS is Cabinet’s (PMO’s) programme throttle.

Their frigging potentiometer is always stuck on near zero.

 

[dapaterson]

DND's biggest problem is that TBS remembers what we told them, even when we don't.

Constant rotation of PL / PD staff and grossly insufficient information transfer every APS causes considerable damage and incurs significant delay to many, many DND projects.

 

[Grimey]

American Bureau of Shipping; they are the classification society doing the in service certification for the non-combatants. I think they just looked at the hull, but not as confident with the components, as some genius decided 15 years ago to mix steel pipe with bronze valves on the sea water system, and weirdly there are corrosion issues. (Funny aside, they tried to pass it over to the normal SWS LCMM 5 years later and basically were told they broke it, they bought it).

NSS applies to anything over 1000 tonnes; anything underneath that for new builds the NSS yards are excluded (which would include Davie if they get brought in officially).

Thanks for the clarification.