Merged Child Custody in CF thread (joint custody, etc.)

[Wookilar]

If she is your daughter, she is entitled to be on your MPRR. Even if you have surrendered all rights, you can have her listed as NOK, for instance.

It's a situation similar to yours  that got us into all this in the first place, we have no solid regs on how to track joint custody. Bits and pieces here and there where someone has already challenged it for whatever benefit that were asking for.

We're putting together a suggestion for the Peoplesoft guru's that will allow us to track things like joint custody with % of time with parent. I'm not so worried about benefits (i.e. money) as I am parental rights that jive with court documents/family care agreements. All we need is a couple of boxes in the Dependants field noting : 1) Live with Member; 2) Do not live with Member; 3) Joint Custody for  date/group.

Given the amount of CF members I personally know that share custody of children, I can't believe this hasn't come up enough times for a procedure to be invented.

Now all I have to do is get Career Manglers to read more than the 490A.

Wook

 

[PMedMoe]

If I were single, I could indeed list my daughter as NOK.  But, I'm married, so I cannot. 

 

[CountDC]

um - no.  She is not "entitled" to anything.  As a member of the CF you may add people to your profile as dependants if they meet the requirements to be recognized.  When you surrender all rights and responsibilities then they are no longer recognized as your next of kin.  Been through that one when a nice Lt(N) attempted to take LTA to where his daughter lived after he had given everything up. His only recognized NOK was his mother and he didn't get the LTA.

 

[PMedMoe]

CountDC, I was thinking of that as well.  While I understand the listing of dependents might be an issue for some, the CF has a pretty strict definition.

I remember a query on these forums a while ago about someone asking if they could claim LTA to visit a child who does not normally reside with them.  According to DCBA, the answer is no.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't your NOK have to be over 18?  Even when I was single, my daughter was never listed as my NOK as she was too young.  Thankfully, F'ton isn't far from Moncton (where my parents live). 

 

[Wookilar]

Moe, Count, you're both right of course, as far as Primary NOK is concerned, spouse trumps children.
We do have a member who wants his child as Primary NOK, has no other NOK that fits (some cousins), but the minor is not his dependant. Doesn't work for us.

Count,

I understand (and agree) re:LTA and other benefits that are linked to NOK when a member has given up all rights.

What I am trying to sort through is trying to administer for a parent who has court documents clearly stating times where they have custody and it got me to thinking about the systemic approach to all this. It seems that administratively we have not kept up to the courts.

It's easy enough to handle at the unit level, the OR's can be kept informed on any changes. The problem is when things leave the unit lines and people start looking at at you like you have 17 heads  ;D.

Wook

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I believe the reason I was denied my daughter being on my MPRR is the CF definition of dependent IAW the DCBA Aide Memoire if I recall...which is what makes me bang my head on the table, as my 2 step daughters don't live with Mrs EITS and myself either but they ARE on my MPRR.

When I was PRes my daugher lived in PEI, I was NOT in PEI, and she was on my MPRR.  Then I did my CT...and she was on my MPRR.  Then I was posted to YAW, and the folks there said she couldn't be, removed her, added my 2 step daughters, removed them THEN added my 2 step daughters back...but even though I told them that they did NOT reside with us, the listed them as living in NS with us anyways...anyone remember *The Gong Show* of yester-year?  ;D

I've had more headaches trying to get the info correct on my MPRR every year I have to indicate what is incorrect on it and sign that damn thing than...well anything else in my life.  I have no had a *correct* MPRR for over a decade I am sure.

 

[Jarnhamar]

If a member is on a career course and they get served with a surprise court date for custody issues can the member ask the court to move the court date to the right until after their course (say if there is a month left on course).

If the member wants to RTU themselves in order to deal with the court issues what type of RTU does it fall under?

 

[Tibbson]

Yes you can certainly ask the court for a change in the date and I'd try that first before I went the RTU route. 

 

[PuckChaser]

If the member wants to RTU themselves in order to deal with the court issues what type of RTU does it fall under?

As its custody issues, I'd be inclined to say its compassionate grounds.

I certainly hope the court would be receptive to moving the date as well.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Can the member request the court change the date over the phone or would they have to travel to the court in person and request it?

 

[Tibbson]

Call the court and ask them.  They will tell you the process.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Wise words thanks

 

[kratz]

When I had this happen to me in the 1990s, I asked a good friend to appear in court and make my request for a delay, in my place.
The judge recognized the effort, acknowledge she was a good friend in appearing for me and did move the date to when I would be off course and available. So, as advised above, call the court to confirm expectations and you may be able to avoid the expensive cost of a lawyer for one appearance.

 

[cupper]

I would suggest that the member get a lawyer if he can afford it, and make the request through his council. If he can't afford one, definitely contact the court and request a delay, or as Kratz suggested, have a close friend or relative make the request.

But foremost, he should definitely get a lawyer if at all possible to represent his interests. The legal system is no place for anyone to try DIY, unless you have a legal background.

 

[brihard]

I would suggest that the member get a lawyer if he can afford it, and make the request through his council. If he can't afford one, definitely contact the court and request a delay, or as Kratz suggested, have a close friend or relative make the request.

But foremost, he should definitely get a lawyer if at all possible to represent his interests. The legal system is no place for anyone to try DIY, unless you have a legal background.

What Cupper said. Get a lawyer if possible, and contact the court as early as possible. They will usually be receptive to reasonably articulated issues if brought forth in a timely manner. That said, they might not go for it and he needs to be prepared for that too.

 

[FJAG]

Almost any court date can be adjourned to a later date for appropriate reasons. The question is what is the nature of the hearing? If this is an urgent or emergency matter than adjournment may be more difficult or even impossible.

In addition please note that in many courts, a motion or application is set for a "first appearance" date but with the clear understanding that at that appearance, all that will happen is that the matter will be adjourned to another date to allow additional documents to be filed, examinations take place etc before a final "hearing" date is set. At these appearances, there is no need for the client to be present, the lawyer's appearance is usually sufficient.

IMHO, custody matters are the most important issues that a family court deals with because they directly effect the relationship between the parents and the child(ren) and, possibly, some serious financial consequences as well. They should not be dealt with in-person or by having a "friend" appear. I obviously do not know what the nature of this motion is, but, if it's serious enough to go before the court then it's serious enough to get immediate legal advice and to get a lawyer involved quickly.

Most family court proceedings (with the exception of a full blown custody trial) require only minimal client appearances in court and until one has a good understanding of what the court proceedings are (whether or not this is an actual hearing date or just a "first appearance" returnable for a later date etc.), it may be that taking RTU actions are premature.

Hope things work out for the individual.

:cheers:

 

[Alberta Bound]

A most important part is to do some research and get a lawyer who is well regarded in family law - custody issues. Every consult with a lawyer, all pre court prep, every court appearence by the lawyer (or their agent) costs YOU. But if you get a less expensive lawyer who is not very experienced in family law - child custody issues it ultimately will cost you a lot more. The more experienced lawyer will shepherd your issues through the process efficiently and save you from having to go back to court again and again.

The newer lawyer or local generalist who does a bit of wills, real estate, criminal, family, etc may miss problems / issues and ultimately cause you to go back to court over and over again. I have seen this quite often.

Parenting Orders, Custody Orders (interim or full) should never include phrases that leave room for personal interpretation (yes by you and the ex) like "by agreement", "by mutual agreement", "reasonable access" and other generally open phrases. Because if you could come to agreement or be reasonable with each other, then you wouldn't need the court.

Times / locations of custody, meetings, drop offs need to be clearly outlined including the exact dates and locations.

Also remember. All these orders are only valid in the province they are made in. I have seen parents skip to another province and gotten themselves new ex parte orders and the other parent starts pretty much at square one. It is good to get along with the ex. But a good custody order can save you time, money, aggravation.

Just some suggestions. 

 

[FJAG]

A most important part is to do some research and get a lawyer who is well regarded in family law - custody issues. Every consult with a lawyer, all pre court prep, every court appearence by the lawyer (or their agent) costs YOU. But if you get a less expensive lawyer who is not very experienced in family law - child custody issues it ultimately will cost you a lot more. The more experienced lawyer will shepherd your issues through the process efficiently and save you from having to go back to court again and again.

The newer lawyer or local generalist who does a bit of wills, real estate, criminal, family, etc may miss problems / issues and ultimately cause you to go back to court over and over again. I have seen this quite often.

Parenting Orders, Custody Orders (interim or full) should never include phrases that leave room for personal interpretation (yes by you and the ex) like "by agreement", "by mutual agreement", "reasonable access" and other generally open phrases. Because if you could come to agreement or be reasonable with each other, then you wouldn't need the court.

Times / locations of custody, meetings, drop offs need to be clearly outlined including the exact dates and locations.

Also remember. All these orders are only valid in the province they are made in. I have seen parents skip to another province and gotten themselves new ex parte orders and the other parent starts pretty much at square one. It is good to get along with the ex. But a good custody order can save you time, money, aggravation.

Just some suggestions.

Bang on until the second last para.

Orders respecting children (whether made under the Divorce Act or under provincial family law) are made by provincial courts and have full effect within the province. In circumstances where the children are moved to another province or even country, there are a number of laws which have the purpose of giving substantial effect to the original court order. In the end, each court has the power to determine what is in the best interest of the child which resides within its geographic jurisdiction but those courts do give great deference to the orders of other courts that have previously examined and ruled on the issue but also giving due consideration to the fact that the move itself might have created a change in circumstances justifying a revised order.

:cheers:

 

[mariomike]

A most important part is to do some research and get a lawyer who is well regarded in family law - custody issues. Every consult with a lawyer, all pre court prep, every court appearence by the lawyer (or their agent) costs YOU. But if you get a less expensive lawyer who is not very experienced in family law - child custody issues it ultimately will cost you a lot more. The more experienced lawyer will shepherd your issues through the process efficiently and save you from having to go back to court again and again.

The newer lawyer or local generalist who does a bit of wills, real estate, criminal, family, etc may miss problems / issues and ultimately cause you to go back to court over and over again. I have seen this quite often.

Parenting Orders, Custody Orders (interim or full) should never include phrases that leave room for personal interpretation (yes by you and the ex) like "by agreement", "by mutual agreement", "reasonable access" and other generally open phrases. Because if you could come to agreement or be reasonable with each other, then you wouldn't need the court.

Times / locations of custody, meetings, drop offs need to be clearly outlined including the exact dates and locations.

Also remember. All these orders are only valid in the province they are made in. I have seen parents skip to another province and gotten themselves new ex parte orders and the other parent starts pretty much at square one. It is good to get along with the ex. But a good custody order can save you time, money, aggravation.

Just some suggestions.

See also,

Child Custody & The CF
http://army.ca/forums/threads/85126.50

Joint Custody and Postings 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/93315.0/nowap.html

 

[Alberta Bound]

FJAG

Fair enough the last part about the orders being valid only in their originating province was over simplified. I was simply hoping to make the point that people should not expect that if their ex departs to another location that they should automatically expect the parenting / custody orders to stay as they are.

I have seen orders that have been recently issued by one court with effect dates being several years down the road and a court in a "new" province conducting an ex parte hearing with only the one parent's input (perspective, wishes, desires, witnesses, friends) and the new court making provisions in their order often directly opposite to the original order. In effect leaving 2 valid orders from different provinces and a tug of war by the parents.

I probably have less faith in Judges / Justices taking notice of other courts rulings unless binding upon them having seen many strange things added by the courts. My favourites are the non attendance clauses at the ex's residence, but then the court specifies the residence as a post box #, no contact orders for the parties unless it is to discuss their marriage or the children, and my favourite is the police enforcement clause that "requests police to assist if a party breaches the order, unless no actual breach occurred".

The lesson from all this is whomever really needs custody advise. Get it from a good lawyer and make sure they are aware of all possible circumstances.

Hoping no one needs any of this advise.