Military concerned by Canada's absence from American-British-Australian security pact

[Navy_Pete]

Do we need CJOC ? Were the L1s not capable of organizing and deploying forces on their own, and working together ?

To me we have over complicated things. And probably for the sake of GO/FO and CWO/CPO1 multiplication.

I have no idea; maybe would be useful if we have deployed some kind of mixed expeditionary force (like Haiti where there were some soldiers and ships with helos?) but when the ship is set up to coordinate with land and air units, as well as normal task group stuff, no idea what CJOC brings to the table in real terms that the L1s couldn't do before hand.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Still pursuing a swerve off topic ...

Someone smarter than I can explain why force generation needs to be separate from force employment. The intention, in the 1960s, was that the unified commands would do both functions and each of Maritime and Mobile Commands had a deputy commander with a (notionally, at least) globally deployable war HQs that would allow tech DComd to employ the task-forces that were generated by formations in Canada.

 

[FSTO]

I have no idea; maybe would be useful if we have deployed some kind of mixed expeditionary force (like Haiti where there were some soldiers and ships with helos?) but when the ship is set up to coordinate with land and air units, as well as normal task group stuff, no idea what CJOC brings to the table in real terms that the L1s couldn't do before hand.

When did the DotComs first start?

 

[Halifax Tar]

When did the DotComs first start?

Hillier

 

[FSTO]

Hillier

Before or after 2000? My mind is fuzzy

 

[Halifax Tar]

After. When Hellier was CDS

 

[CountDC]

Why be concerned? Everyone should understand Canada wasn't included as we are just another US protected territory. Maybe when we get the new jets, ships, tanks, arty, members, etc etc etc they will consider letting us into the club.

 

[FSTO]

After. When Hellier was CDS

So when Pro was in Timor there was no CJOC.

 

[dapaterson]

CJOC fills some of the roles the old DCDS performed.

Like demanding a MLR from an UNMO when their boots were stolen before sending replacement...

 

[dimsum]

Why be concerned? Everyone should understand Canada wasn't included as we are just another US protected territory. Maybe when we get the new jets, ships, tanks, arty, members, etc etc etc they will consider letting us into the club.

Probably not that different as Australia, just that they have the stuff.

I’m just spitballing here, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Canberra is taking “foot stomp” cues from Washington.

 

[Halifax Tar]

CJOC fills some of the roles the old DCDS performed.

Like demanding a MLR from an UNMO when their boots were stolen before sending replacement...

So valuable, and a massive force enabler and multiplier

 

[Navy_Pete]

Before or after 2000? My mind is fuzzy

Think CEFCOM was version 1; wikipedia says 2006 (and rebranded CJOC in 2012).

Canadian Expeditionary Force Command - Wikipedia

Pre-CEFCOM was before my time, but from my limited CJOC experience they were right in our shorts for really detailed things, and completely useless for getting support on high level things where you needed big picture parts to get moving.

If the only thing you bring to the table is additional layers of approval, hard to understand the purpose of their existence. But maybe they are doing all kinds of things up the chain in a black box fashion that aren't obvious at the deployed unit level. to keep SJS and other folks like that happy.

Weird though, because when you are doing the same stuff not under CJOC with ships, SS still manages to figure out how to arrange events with local embassies, coordinate logistics/customs with other countries, etc. Maybe makes more sense for Army or airforce, if you are just sending a platoon or some planes, but might just be another empire.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Think CEFCOM was version 1; wikipedia says 2006 (and rebranded CJOC in 2012).

Canadian Expeditionary Force Command - Wikipedia

Pre-CEFCOM was before my time, but from my limited CJOC experience they were right in our shorts for really detailed things, and completely useless for getting support on high level things where you needed big picture parts to get moving.

If the only thing you bring to the table is additional layers of approval, hard to understand the purpose of their existence. But maybe they are doing all kinds of things up the chain in a black box fashion that aren't obvious at the deployed unit level. to keep SJS and other folks like that happy.

Weird though, because when you are doing the same stuff not under CJOC with ships, SS still manages to figure out how to arrange events with local embassies, coordinate logistics/customs with other countries, etc. Maybe makes more sense for Army or airforce, if you are just sending a platoon or some planes, but might just be another empire.

In the way of material supply CJOC wants nothing to do with the RCN and leaves it in the pre existing organizations hands.

They were more concerned about budgets and making sure certain people got certain medals.

Empires and silos my boy.

 

[Navy_Pete]

In the way of material supply CJOC wants nothing to do with the RCN and leaves it in the pre existing organizations hands.

They were more concerned about budgets and making sure certain people got certain medals.

Empires and silos my boy.

Is CJOC still the approving authority for mobile repair parties (and associated goods)? I can't remember but think they call them TAVs instead (technical assisstance visits?)

On one hand, having someone else able to direct a grey tail to bring you cargo is good, but they previously had a 2-3 week lead time for approvals of the individuals and scope of the job.

They were paying, so would have expected some kind of review, but at $100k/day for sitting alongside in port fees, delays costs a lot more than one extra person riding along on a jolly (which never saw anyway).

On the flip side, FMF was pretty good at not being able to schedule a job with a two week window in Halifax, but suddenly it's a priority they can support during a 4 day port visit in France.

I don't miss that particular hamster wheel.

 

[Good2Golf]

Do we need CJOC ? Were the L1s not capable of organizing and deploying forces on their own, and working together ?

To me we have over complicated things. And probably for the sake of GO/FO and CWO/CPO1 multiplication.

As Mr. Campbell said upthread…separation of church and state. It was arguably done decently back in the days of the DCDS, pre-transformation. VCDS - admin and program($) and DCDS - operational command (less NORAD/CANR).

When did the DotComs first start?

APS 2005

 

[Weinie]

Before or after 2000? My mind is fuzzy

2006 for CANSOFCOM.

 

[Good2Golf]

2006 for CANSOFCOM.

It took a bit longer to update the name from SOG to CANSOF, lest the high speed, no sparks dudes and dudettes would have been known as ‘GOS’ by Francos….(if you know, you know )

 

[Halifax Tar]

Is CJOC still the approving authority for mobile repair parties (and associated goods)? I can't remember but think they call them TAVs instead (technical assisstance visits?)

On one hand, having someone else able to direct a grey tail to bring you cargo is good, but they previously had a 2-3 week lead time for approvals of the individuals and scope of the job.

They were paying, so would have expected some kind of review, but at $100k/day for sitting alongside in port fees, delays costs a lot more than one extra person riding along on a jolly (which never saw anyway).

On the flip side, FMF was pretty good at not being able to schedule a job with a two week window in Halifax, but suddenly it's a priority they can support during a 4 day port visit in France.

I don't miss that particular hamster wheel.

CJOC is the approving authority for the flow of people to and from a deployment. But in the case of a mobile repair team it's a rubber stamp. No one is going to o deny that without some very good reason.

But they jealousy guard repats and will almost never allow backfills unless it's a missing critical position. Or combat related replacement.

As Mr. Campbell said upthread…separation of church and state. It was arguably done decently back in the days of the DCDS, pre-transformation. VCDS - admin and program($) and DCDS - operational command (less NORAD/CANR).


APS 2005

I dunno... We invaded Normandy with something like a 14 page Op order. But now now need CJOC to do an Op Reassurance. Which is essentially something the RCN has been doing since the creation of NATO.

The longer I spend in the more I think we overcomplicate things for the sake of jobs and ranks.

World War II Operational Documents

Operation order for the famous landing of allied troops on D-Day, known as Operation OVERLORD. This order provides a succinct summary of the plans for this huge military offensive.

cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org

 

[OldSolduer]

The longer I spend in the more I think we overcomplicate things for the same jobs and ranks.

World War II Operational Documents

Operation order for the famous landing of allied troops on D-Day, known as Operation OVERLORD. This order provides a succinct summary of the plans for this huge military offensive.

cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org

I would agree with that - and adding that multiple levels of bureaucrats (Not ALL Civvy) tend to roadblock things from happening

 

[Good2Golf]

I dunno... We invaded Normandy with something like a 14 page Op order. But now now need CJOC to do an Op Reassurance. Which is essentially something the RCN has been doing since the creation of NATO.

That’s a good point, HT, but I think notes that the CJOC way seems more complicated than I remember the DCDS was. I believe the ‘keep the FE authority separate from the FG authority’ isn’t necessarily wrong. It did make for some spicy times though…(he said, having been in the room during a dust up between LGens Leslie and Gauthier boxing )