More "Army" in Army Cadets (combat training, etc.)

[Jarnhamar]

Marc it‘s very safe to say Recceguy knows exactly what he‘s talking about. Leave it at that.

 

[1feral1]

In Australia, we have adopted the 12.7 x99mm Accuracy International AW AMR. WTF is an AMR? A: AMR - ‘Anti Material Rifle‘ and thats the politically correct term for sniper rifle of larger calibres. Right now AI‘s AW is in our operationally deployed areas, and I am sure they are not there for target practice.

Thats a crock, in fact a big giant crock of shyte you cant use .50 on ‘soft fleshy tgts‘ which are trying to kill you.

Australia uses the fol 12.7 x 99mm wpns in flex and fixed roles:

US/UK/FN manufactured/ADF FTR .50 M2 HB HMG
FN/US manufactured/ADF FTR .50 QCB HMG

Plus the ‘sniper rifle‘ the UK manufactured AI AW .50 AMR

What next? No Mk19‘s or M203‘s? Dunno who told ya that rumour, but they are wrong.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[1feral1]

That comment that ‘flip-masta‘ made is just plain foolishness, but coming from a ‘child‘, but with 4 years of real military experience‘ why am I not suprised. What a joke, and a POSER!

Mate if you spent one hr with us in the field on a full-tac ex, on the guns, in 45C, 95% humidity, in the sun, you‘d be reduced to tears with an hr from all the hard work, and want to go home berfore you finished your first water bottle.

Wake up to yourself!

Cadet activities here include map and compass, competition day and night nav ex‘s, basic fieldcraft, bush survival techniques, first-aid trg (snake and spider bites included), radios and comms, team building exercises, plus a host of other related activites army related, but not combat trg.

And they LOVE it!

Cheers,

Wes

 

[D-n-A]

going from memory

the geneva convention doesnt allow the use of .50cal rounds on personal(I havent looked at the rules in awhile, so dont quote me on that), but in War, have fun trying to tell the trooper who‘s manning the .50cal not to shoot at the people who are trying to kill him


and m_a_r_c, dont argue with people who have a lot more time in and experiance than you, you will lose

 

[flip_masta]

if u guys feel so strong about your views on cadet combat training should be regulated then fine so be it.........but i agree with 3005_MWO...if a person wants to train to be a soldier then as soon as u turn 16...join the reserves. also i still believe that army cadets is goin down.....and it needs a boost whether it be more live fire activities or even excercises with your affiliated unit...i mean cmon lets be serious, even for one moment, i have been discussing a matter with an officer at the cadet support unit for ontario and they were thinking of removing all weapons affiliated with the army such as the c7 and the cadets will not have access to them....now tell me that is a stupid move or not

 

[1feral1]

So Flip, say you are firing a C7, and a bit of the extractor fractures, and sticks to the bolt face.

Then as the next rd is picked up from the mag and is driven into the chamber, the fractured piece sticking to the bolt face acts as a firing pin, strikes the primer, and and fires the rifle out of battery (that means before the rd is fully chambered) and the rifle blows up in your face, not killing you, but blinding you and disfuguring you, or someone next to you.

You end up blind and disfigured, and your parents are gonna want compensation arent they!

So whos gonna get a law suit filed? IVI? Diemaco? the CF? Hummm.

Although not common, weapons/ammo do malfunction and people are often injured, sometimes killed.

Its best that RCACC and other ‘Service‘ cadet corps stick to air rifles or FATS.

Regards,

Wes

 

[cdhoult]

Originally posted by flip_masta:
[qb] if u guys feel so strong about your views on cadet combat training should be regulated then fine so be it.........but i agree with 3005_MWO...if a person wants to train to be a soldier then as soon as u turn 16...join the reserves. also i still believe that army cadets is goin down.....and it needs a boost whether it be more live fire activities or even excercises with your affiliated unit...i mean cmon lets be serious, even for one moment, i have been discussing a matter with an officer at the cadet support unit for ontario and they were thinking of removing all weapons affiliated with the army such as the c7 and the cadets will not have access to them....now tell me that is a stupid move or not [/qb]

As explained earlier, it all depends on how you look at it...

Sea Cadets doesn‘t really do anything ‘Navy‘, aside from the uniform and some Naval Traditions (Boatswains call, etc)....When I was a Sea Cadet, we didn‘t learn how to fire weapons on a ship, or go out to sea in the YAGs and fight against eachohter...We did Seamanship, Dinghy sailing...nothing you can‘t do in the civilian world. Aside from Marine Engineering, which is a CF Ticket...they don‘t learn combat, they just learn how to engineer on a YAG.

Air Cadets certainly don‘t do any ‘air force‘ training that I know of...They don‘t learn combat tactics, or anything of the sort. They learn to fly, but that‘s civilian certification.

Army Cadets is a bit misleading, because even at HQ, it‘s the ACO(Land), not ACO(Army), so ‘Land‘ Cadets may be a better term to think along the lines of. The most Army thing is the CF Jump Course, which can sometimes be a dream for Reg Force Soldiers (so I‘m told). That‘s pretty ‘army‘ if you ask me. Beyond that, Army Cadets isn‘t anymore or less ‘military‘ than Sea is Navy or Air is Air Force.

CH

CH

 

[Michael OLeary]

For anyone wishing to refer to the Geneva Conventions (one of the tangents in this discussion thread), I dropped links to the Conventions‘ texts in a new post at http://army.ca/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/7/241 .

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by 3005_MWO:
[qb]

Originally posted by flip_masta:
[qb] if u guys feel so strong about your views on cadet combat training should be regulated then fine so be it.........but i agree with 3005_MWO...if a person wants to train to be a soldier then as soon as u turn 16...join the reserves. also i still believe that army cadets is goin down.....and it needs a boost whether it be more live fire activities or even excercises with your affiliated unit...i mean cmon lets be serious, even for one moment, i have been discussing a matter with an officer at the cadet support unit for ontario and they were thinking of removing all weapons affiliated with the army such as the c7 and the cadets will not have access to them....now tell me that is a stupid move or not [/qb]

As explained earlier, it all depends on how you look at it...

Sea Cadets doesn‘t really do anything ‘Navy‘, aside from the uniform and some Naval Traditions (Boatswains call, etc)....When I was a Sea Cadet, we didn‘t learn how to fire weapons on a ship, or go out to sea in the YAGs and fight against eachohter...We did Seamanship, Dinghy sailing...nothing you can‘t do in the civilian world. Aside from Marine Engineering, which is a CF Ticket...they don‘t learn combat, they just learn how to engineer on a YAG.

Air Cadets certainly don‘t do any ‘air force‘ training that I know of...They don‘t learn combat tactics, or anything of the sort. They learn to fly, but that‘s civilian certification.

Army Cadets is a bit misleading, because even at HQ, it‘s the ACO(Land), not ACO(Army), so ‘Land‘ Cadets may be a better term to think along the lines of. The most Army thing is the CF Jump Course, which can sometimes be a dream for Reg Force Soldiers (so I‘m told). That‘s pretty ‘army‘ if you ask me. Beyond that, Army Cadets isn‘t anymore or less ‘military‘ than Sea is Navy or Air is Air Force.

CH

CH [/qb]

"Military" doesn‘t mean "combat". Army cadets shine boots and press uniforms and polish brass. Boy Scouts, Beavers, Cubs and Venturers don‘t do that. Army Cadets drill and march using the same drill the Army uses. Army Cadets have a rigid rank structure; they salute commissioned officers and stand at attention to talk to superiors. They have career progression (star levels) in the same manner as the Army (the old TQ, QL, or now the DP system). That is all good "military" stuff that other civvie organizations don‘t do, so don‘t diss cadets as being "unmilitary" either. They are very much military, they‘re just not trained for combat.

 

[combat_medic]

The Geneva Convention does not prohibit the use of .50 cal weaponry against soft targets (soft vehicles, personnel etc.).

However, in several overseas operations, particularily those under the jurisdiction of the UN, the use of .50 against personnel was prohibited according to the particular rules of engagement (ROEs) of each mission. ROEs change all the time... even the same mission will have changing ROEs as the situation evolves.

However, I remember reading a while back about certain weapons being prohibited for use against personnel because they cause "undue pain and suffering." Things like flechette arty rounds and white phospherous are in this category, but I don‘t know if .50 cal is included, and I don‘t remember the paper that it was in.

 

[cdhoult]

MD, I don‘t believe I was implying that, especially if you‘ve read my other posts in this thread. I was just pointing out that maybe people are looking at it the wrong way when they compare it to Sea/Air Cadets and claiming that there is no ‘army‘ in ‘army‘ cadets.

The Air/Sea elements also have what you mentioned, hence why Air/Sea are no more or less ‘military‘ than army.

My apologies if this was misinterpreted.

CH

 

[Excolis]

Wait a min here. cadets can be 19.. where as the entry age for PRes is 16. so tell me why people are saying they are just kids. if we uped the training a bit, maybe it would make for easier transfer from cadets to PRes.

 

[kurokaze]

Originally posted by 48Highlander:
[qb] I don‘t know about other cadet corps, but I‘ve taken our own cadets on to our SAT range a couple times, so they‘ve gotten to handle a C7, C9, and C6. Might not be as "cool" as live rounds, but they all seemed to enjoy it just fine. I also know that the CF DOES allow cadets to fire C7‘s live as long as certain procedures are followed. For example, no more than 5 rounds in a mag, only single shots, and there has to be 1 reserve or regforce DS staff for every 3 cadets firing. If you want to do any of these things, it‘s up to you and your chain of command. Your best resource is your local armories. If the CO of your corps wants to, and has sufficient funding, he can get on the phone to one of the regiments there and they can either open up the SAT range for you or arrange some kind of live range on a weekend. The SAT range is probably the cheapest option because you‘ll only be paying for 1-2 personnel to run the range, and about 2 cents per round fired. Submit a memo up your chain of command and see what happens. [/qb]

As far as I know, the SAT at Moss park STILL ISN‘T WORKING! :rage:

If CSM McIntyre gets it up and running I have some troops I want to put through it.

 

[48Highlander]

well good news Kurokaze, I ran a range practice for our officers on the SAT in Moss Park a week ago, and it‘s working just fine. There‘s a problem with the number 2 C7, but other than that the system functions fine.

and "combat_medic", I don‘t see how anyone could think that the .50cal would cause "undue pain and suffering" a gut shot with a 12.7mm round would cause immediate death, whereas a gut shot with a 5.56 would result in a great deal of pain, and problems which would last for the rest oh the individuals life.

 

[combat_medic]

48Highlander: I didn‘t write it. I know that a .50 round at any range would turn a human being into crimson vapour and bone chips. Then again, an arty flechette round would reduce a human being into grated cheese, and that‘s on the list. I don‘t write these documents, I‘m just passing on what I read.

 

[alan_li_13]

Wait a min here. cadets can be 19.. where as the entry age for PRes is 16.

Not entirely correct. Cadets must leave when they turn 19. But yes, there are cadets from 16 to 18.

 

[cdhoult]

Originally posted by hopefully airborne soon:
[qb] Wait a min here. cadets can be 19.. where as the entry age for PRes is 16. so tell me why people are saying they are just kids. if we uped the training a bit, maybe it would make for easier transfer from cadets to PRes. [/qb]

But what about the 12-15 year olds? A cadet has the option to leave whenever they like. They aren‘t bound to anything, and don‘t have to give notice. If they choose to join the PRes at 16, more power to them...But what bout those who don‘t want to?

Plus, senior cadets are trained to be instructors/leaders within the corps...going from let‘s say a MWO to a Pte with little responsability, doesn‘t really allow cadets to ‘give back‘ to their corps.

CH

 

[Excolis]

another +aim in the CCM is to promote interest in the Canadian Forces. now this might be a stupid thought, but why not give the cadets the correct view of the canadian forces. if the cadet doesnt like combat training, they should join boy scouts. they have taken the "army" out of army cadets.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

3005_ MWO...we have have had Sea Cadets with us on things like soverignity (sp) patrols and coastal watch exercises and while they didn‘t fire the guns we have had them sit on the radar and do general seamanship duties.

 

[D-n-A]

if cadets want to know what combat training is, the best way is to set up something with their affliated reserve unit

the cadets an reserves can go out to a training area, and the reserves can do a section attack

and have the cadets on the sideline watching