More Than Half (56%) of Canadians Consider Canada’s Armed Forces to be Old and Antiquated

[KevinB]

MLVW needed 150 mods to fix issues when issued, pretty sad when your just updating an existing design. The Iltis was not a terrible vehicle, but the Germans were at the time replacing theirs with G-wagons, which is what we should have done as well.

We should have bought the Hummer instead of the Iltis.
Other than the very true aspect of @CountDC ’s point that if you rolled it on a range road playing ‘Dukes of Hazard’ you could easily have it flipped back over before anyone else noticed the Iltis did nothing they the Hummer didn’t do better, and while you can’t flip a Hummer back upright easily, it’s wheelbase and stability made it very hard to flip.

The only time I needed recovery for an Iltis roll, was when we put it into a swamp behind the Mattawa plains.
That cost a case of beer and $20 at a coin op car wash in Pembroke to hose the mud and clay out (which shorted out the horn to permanently on) which was a little suspicious when we drove back to the Z lines.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

At that time the Hummer still had a lot of issues, including the horrible 6.2L engine. Plus I think one of the requirements was to fit into a Chinook (I could be wrong on that, but I seem to recall that) Plus it had to be built in Canada.

 

[KevinB]

At that time the Hummer still had a lot of issues, including the horrible 6.2L engine. Plus I think one of the requirements was to fit into a Chinook (I could be wrong on that, but I seem to recall that) Plus it had to be built in Canada.

Ah yes the Chinooks that got divested right after…
The 6.2 was still better than the gutless VW 4 banger lawnmower in the CAF Iltis. The German and Dutch had a V-6 for theirs.

The Hummer would have been significantly cheaper for the end result as the CA managed to get 3 platforms (Iltis, LSVW and GWagon) in the same time the Hummer has served down here.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Ah yes the Chinooks that got divested right after…
The 6.2 was still better than the gutless VW 4 banger lawnmower in the CAF Iltis. The German and Dutch had a V-6 for theirs.

The Hummer would have been significantly cheaper for the end result as the CA managed to get 3 platforms (Iltis, LSVW and GWagon) in the same time the Hummer has served down here.

I am agnostic on the Hummer, but I really liked the 4x4 tactical truck the US got and wished we had bought them as well.

 

[CBH99]

We should have bought the Hummer instead of the Iltis.
Other than the very true aspect of @CountDC ’s point that if you rolled it on a range road playing ‘Dukes of Hazard’ you could easily have it flipped back over before anyone else noticed the Iltis did nothing they the Hummer didn’t do better, and while you can’t flip a Hummer back upright easily, it’s wheelbase and stability made it very hard to flip.

The only time I needed recovery for an Iltis roll, was when we put it into a swamp behind the Mattawa plains.
That cost a case of beer and $20 at a coin op car wash in Pembroke to hose the mud and clay out (which shorted out the horn to permanently on) which was a little suspicious when we drove back to the Z lines.

It's stories like these that make it easy to tell the difference between real military folks, and the odd walt you meet in a bar

The walt probably couldn't even think of stories like that

 

[CBH99]

Ah yes the Chinooks that got divested right after…
The 6.2 was still better than the gutless VW 4 banger lawnmower in the CAF Iltis. The German and Dutch had a V-6 for theirs.

The Hummer would have been significantly cheaper for the end result as the CA managed to get 3 platforms (Iltis, LSVW and GWagon) in the same time the Hummer has served down here.

Don't forget though...the US does this crazy thing called 'continuous build' where older vehicles are replaced by newer vehicles of the same type... (Crazy, right?)

We like to buy all of ours at once so we don't have to think about it again for a few decades!



Is THIS what my mom meant when she referred to a lazy man's load?

 

[KevinB]

Don't forget though...the US does this crazy thing called 'continuous build' where older vehicles are replaced by newer vehicles of the same type... (Crazy, right?)

We like to buy all of ours at once so we don't have to think about it again for a few decades!



Is THIS what my mom meant when she referred to a lazy man's load?

Well TBH a fleet build schedule for the CAF is usually a shifts work of work for a day or two…
So there is never any sort of economic incentive to continuous build schedules.

 

[CBH99]

Well TBH a fleet build schedule for the CAF is usually a shifts work of work for a day or two…
So there is never any sort of economic incentive to continuous build schedules.

True.

I remember when the MLVW replacement was first signed (MilCOTS side of the fleet, built by Navistar I think?) and the factory could produce 101 vehicles per day

The Canadian plant was in the process of closing, and someone asked "Why not build them at the Canadian plant instead?"

And the answer was basically even if they did, it would have kept the plant open for something like an additional 11 days or something...


______________________________


Just saying...

- I'm sure there's a little factory somewhere up here that could built 50-100 new trucks a year, and have those trucks replace the oldest trucks in some units. It would keep those units more capable, employ a few people, etc

- If the RCMP can replace their vehicles often enough that they all look new, why can't we?

(is it cuz we're green? It is, isn't it!? #thatsracist)


(

 

[lenaitch]

True.

I remember when the MLVW replacement was first signed (MilCOTS side of the fleet, built by Navistar I think?) and the factory could produce 101 vehicles per day

The Canadian plant was in the process of closing, and someone asked "Why not build them at the Canadian plant instead?"

And the answer was basically even if they did, it would have kept the plant open for something like an additional 11 days or something...


______________________________


Just saying...

- I'm sure there's a little factory somewhere up here that could built 50-100 new trucks a year, and have those trucks replace the oldest trucks in some units. It would keep those units more capable, employ a few people, etc

- If the RCMP can replace their vehicles often enough that they all look new, why can't we?

(is it cuz we're green? It is, isn't it!? #thatsracist)


(

A little factory building 50-100 vehicles a year would go out of business. If it is an assembly line, what do they do for the other 51 weeks? If they are hand-built, do you want to know the price?

The RCMP and other police services don't replace their vehicles because the ashtrays are full. They are miled-out (occasionally timed-out) to whatever the department standard is. Even at that, most departments are keeping them longer than the members are happy about. Whether they are serviced in-house or on the economy, maintenance is generally close at hand (realizing vehicles in the territories/remote areas are a special case).

Police services don't have patrol vehicles built to their specs or highly customized like the CAF seems to like to do. They are 'police packages' as offered by the various manufacturers , either with certain options/featured offered by the manufacturers or installed themselves.

A few years ago, there was much angst about the loss of the Ford Interceptor (Crown Victoria) which were all made in St. Thomas Ontario. Even if they could have gotten every police service in North America to agree to buy them exclusively, it still wouldn't have been enough to keep the plant going.

 

[RedFive]

- If the RCMP can replace their vehicles often enough that they all look new, why can't we?

Boy have I got news for you

 

[FJAG]

A little factory building 50-100 vehicles a year would go out of business. If it is an assembly line, what do they do for the other 51 weeks? If they are hand-built, do you want to know the price?

I consider it more as a challenge to industry.

It clearly wouldn't be worthwhile for one of the major mass producers to retool a functioning plant for such low volume work, but I could see a small operation being set up to do just that. As long as there is a long term contract to produce vehicles at a given rate (and just as importantly the spare parts and do theatre level maintenance) then a business should be able to configure for that. There are numerous models of low rate manufacturing entities that build "custom" vehicles. It's a matter of adapting to the right model.

 

[CountDC]

The only time I needed recovery for an Iltis roll, was when we put it into a swamp behind the Mattawa plains.
That cost a case of beer and $20 at a coin op car wash in Pembroke to hose the mud and clay out (which shorted out the horn to permanently on) which was a little suspicious when we drove back to the Z lines.

I was instructing when we rolled it so I just tested the students on "self-recovery). Didn't cost anything.

Maybe someone here actually knows the truth. We were excited about the iltis as it was supposed to be able to swim across small bodies of water. Problem was that when the deal was made for them they excluded the parts for swimming to save a few bucks (kind of like buying rear wheel drive only pickups instead of 4 wheel ). At least that was what we were told.

 

[KevinB]

I was instructing when we rolled it so I just tested the students on "self-recovery). Didn't cost anything.

Maybe someone here actually knows the truth. We were excited about the iltis as it was supposed to be able to swim across small bodies of water. Problem was that when the deal was made for them they excluded the parts for swimming to save a few bucks (kind of like buying rear wheel drive only pickups instead of 4 wheel ). At least that was what we were told.

I tend to doubt that, as I know of a few that ‘sunk’ trying to ford rivers, so unless the swim kit included a bunch of floaties, I don’t see that being feasible.
Non of the Belgian ones I saw had any sort of fording provisions either.

 

[RangerRay]

From what I understand, the Iltis the Germans and others had was quite impressive and built by VW. The one we got was messed up by Bombardier a cost several times more than the original VW Iltis. But that could have been an urban myth I heard in several different messes too.

 

[KevinB]

From what I understand, the Iltis the Germans and others had was quite impressive and built by VW. The one we got was messed up by Bombardier a cost several times more than the original VW Iltis. But that could have been an urban myth I heard in several different messes too.

The CAF Iltis was a weak cousin to the German one.
There were a number of early engine issues - partially because the CAF engine and transmission were different, and also allegedly due to Bombardier tinkering.

While I’m not 100% sure on the Bombardier issues, there is clear evidence that the whole 4 versus 6 cylinder engine - and the resultant R, 1-4 and a Ground Gear in the CAF one to make up for the lack of engine power did cause issues.

Admittedly I wasn’t impressed with the German version either, as while it had sufficient power, it was still too small for a 1980’s Jeep. That is a two part issue:
1) The rear seats didn’t fit a grown adult let alone with kit on, unless one was standing ‘rat patrol’ style with the top off
2) Equipment especially electronics hadn’t been miniaturized sufficiently to make the available room sufficient.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I tend to doubt that, as I know of a few that ‘sunk’ trying to ford rivers, so unless the swim kit included a bunch of floaties, I don’t see that being feasible.
Non of the Belgian ones I saw had any sort of fording provisions either.

I crossed a few rivers deeper than I expected them to be while crew commanding an Iltis. It floated free of the bottom and moved downstream with the current at least a few feet. We also got water in through the drain holes in the floor, so we would not have floated for long…

 

[lenaitch]

I consider it more as a challenge to industry.

It clearly wouldn't be worthwhile for one of the major mass producers to retool a functioning plant for such low volume work, but I could see a small operation being set up to do just that. As long as there is a long term contract to produce vehicles at a given rate (and just as importantly the spare parts and do theatre level maintenance) then a business should be able to configure for that. There are numerous models of low rate manufacturing entities that build "custom" vehicles. It's a matter of adapting to the right model.

It can work, but there are potential pitfalls. If it is only a piece of the company's work, or if there are multiple customers for the product, the government simply is one of the customers. The closer it gets to being a niche product or the government is the sole/primary customer, there are potential political ramifications. If the price or quality of the product falls away or get too expensive, is the government willing to bail? No politician or handler likes the headline of 'Company 'x' loses government contract, 150 out of work'.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I tend to doubt that, as I know of a few that ‘sunk’ trying to ford rivers, so unless the swim kit included a bunch of floaties, I don’t see that being feasible.
Non of the Belgian ones I saw had any sort of fording provisions either.

possibly inspired by this setup

 

[CBH99]

A few years ago, there was much angst about the loss of the Ford Interceptor (Crown Victoria) which were all made in St. Thomas Ontario. Even if they could have gotten every police service in North America to agree to buy them exclusively, it still wouldn't have been enough to keep the plant going.

That last part is surprising to me. I would think that if every police service in North America was only operating Crown Vics, that would be enough to keep the production line going......shows you how much I know

Boy have I got news for you

I just said that police services are able to keep their vehicle fleets looking new!



I know police vehicles obviously get the miles put on them, and those miles add up quickly. I imagine most police vehicles general maintenance can be done via local dealerships via agreements in place, which is an option the CAF doesn't always have w/ highly customized vehicle fleets (can't exactly take a LAV 6 to a local dealership)


Here in Edmonton, the EPS vehicles all look fairly new all the time. I had just assumed that they'd have a standing order for 20+ vehicles a year (make up a number) and those would replace the vehicles that were miling out or starting to look a show the wear & tear...

In our bedroom communities like Sherwood Park, St. Albert, Spruce Grove, Leduc/Beaumont - all the RCMP vehicles look fairly new also

Now that I'm thinking about it though, and my fingers just keep moving, when I worked for AHS our ambulances all looked pretty new. But holy hell, some of the odometers on those things...

 

[KevinB]

How many LEO in North America?
Roughly 660k in the US
U.S. law enforcement officers 2021 | Statista

And 70k in Canada

Number of police officers in Canada 2023 | Statista

This statistic shows the total number of police officers in Canada from 2000 to 2023.

www.statista.com

So 730k

At ~.7 vehicles / officer to me that sounds like a crazy amount of vehicles, 511k

But I guess that’s only really a 102k a year if you set a 5 year average (which obviously won’t only be cars).

*I can’t find a good source for LE vehicle types percentages. But it’s most likely at least 80% cars.