Naval Lessons from Ukraine/Russia

[Spencer100]

Moskiva is a long way from the condition of our ships. Particularly as they started a refit and never finished it. It was basically sailing without having had a DWP in about 8 years, without propery trained technicians and without a professional crew. And it is older then our ships by about 15 years as well with no midlife refit (that was cancelled).

My opinion of the frigates isn't as nearly negative as some above. I certainly have my issues and frustrations. Hell my current ship is in dry dock because of corrective maintenance, but sailing with other navies I'm aware of how screwed up they all can be. We aren't the only ones with older ships that have challenges.

Or challenges with new ships too..cough cough Prince of Wales.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Moskiva is a long way from the condition of our ships. Particularly as they started a refit and never finished it. It was basically sailing without having had a DWP in about 8 years, without propery trained technicians and without a professional crew. And it is older then our ships by about 15 years as well with no midlife refit (that was cancelled).

My opinion of the frigates isn't as nearly negative as some above. I certainly have my issues and frustrations. Hell my current ship is in dry dock because of corrective maintenance, but sailing with other navies I'm aware of how screwed up they all can be. We aren't the only ones with older ships that have challenges.

I think you, like a lot of people, are overstimating the state of our fleet.

If you can poke your finger through paint below the waterline, that's bad. If the ship is sailing around with no functional eductors in major spaces that's bad. If the fire suppression systems are degraded, with degraded detection, and degraded smoke control, that's also bad.

The deployed ships are the ones in the best material state, with a full crew etc and they still have a lot of recoverability concerns from battle damage. The ships ramping up are questionable if they should be at sea, and only have a skeleton crew of fairly inexperienced people.

The RCN was told quite directly that the FRE fire could have happened in any other ship, and most non-HR ships would have had a much worse outcome (up to running aground). It's not as bad as the Moskva, but it's hardly sunshine and lollipops.

 

[Underway]

I'm not overestimating the state of the fleet, but I think we differ on the risk estimation. We certainly differ on our communication style. However I have more of a tactical picture right now and don't have a full fleetwide view as much as I would like. I'll defer to your experience.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I'm not overestimating the state of the fleet, but I think we differ on the risk estimation. We certainly differ on our communication style. However I have more of a tactical picture right now and don't have a full fleetwide view as much as I would like. I'll defer to your experience.

The reality is, if the RCN found itself in an actual hot war, our Frigates would get mauled badly. The material State of the Ships, including the weapon systems, is well ehm....

They would be useful meat shields though!

 

[Navy_Pete]

The reality is, if the RCN found itself in an actual hot war, our Frigates would get mauled badly. The material State of the Ships, including the weapon systems, is well ehm....

They would be useful meat shields though!

Don't worry though, all the wood paneling and false brick in the casualty clearing spots and section bases will boost morale and improve quality of life, so everyone will be happier if it gets turned into shrapnel from a hit. Hard to take the RCN seriously when it says it's all about operations but baulks at the suggestion of crowbarring that off if they are going to hit a shooting match.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Don't worry though, all the wood paneling and false brick in the casualty clearing spots and section bases will boost morale and improve quality of life, so everyone will be happier if it gets turned into shrapnel from a hit. Hard to take the RCN seriously when it says it's all about operations but baulks at the suggestion of crowbarring that off if they are going to hit a shooting match.

We can all sing "Heart of Oak" When the Wardroom paneling gives us flail chest!

 

[NavyShooter]

Just as Nelson would have wanted it to be!

 

[Navy_Pete]

We can all sing "Heart of Oak" When the Wardroom paneling gives us flail chest!

lol, when I had to argue with someone that a wooden door isn't a suitable replacement for a steel fire door I died inside a little. The plus side is my skillset will translate really well into private life with only minimal work to get some recognized tickets, and some existing quals already recognized.

Collectively the overview of our surveys read like the background to a BOI following a disaster. When we compare our per capita rate of annual incidents to commercial marine in Canada its really not good. I really have no idea what to do anymore other than try and focus on some things to try and minimize the damage.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

lol, when I had to argue with someone that a wooden door isn't a suitable replacement for a steel fire door I died inside a little. The plus side is my skillset will translate really well into private life with only minimal work to get some recognized tickets, and some existing quals already recognized.

Collectively the overview of our surveys read like the background to a BOI following a disaster. When we compare our per capita rate of annual incidents to commercial marine in Canada its really not good. I really have no idea what to do anymore other than try and focus on some things to try and minimize the damage.

You could start by PMing me and I could connect you to people who would be really interested in your experiences dealing with issues related to "health & safety in an industrial setting"

The RCN may not take it seriously but there are others who would be more responsive and appreciative of your input.

 

[Navy_Pete]

You could start by PMing me and I could connect you to people who would be really interested in your experiences dealing with issues related to "health & safety in an industrial setting"

The RCN may not take it seriously but there are others who would be more responsive and appreciative of your input.

Will do, but it's pretty funny as I'm getting more interest from other Navies, IMO and NFPA than the RCN, as well as some weird overlap with totally different industrials like nuclear power. No idea why they pay for use to build the specialist skill sets and then just ignore us because it's inconvenient.

 

[NavyShooter]

I've given up on my local safety organization. When the head of the organization decides to take a tour of people through a space that requires safety footwear and high-visibility clothing, and doesn't wear either, nor make any of the guests on the tour wear them...I just gave up. I haven't worn my hi-vis 'safety straps' in over 3 months.

No-one has corrected me yet.

The RCN pays lip-service to safety at best.

 

[FSTO]

Just as Nelson would have wanted it to be!

Actually when man-o-war "cleared for action", that meant clearing all the false bulkheads and anything else that could cause unnecessary splintering to the lowest part of the ship or over the side. So Nelson would not approve sir!

 

[Lumber]

I've given up on my local safety organization. When the head of the organization decides to take a tour of people through a space that requires safety footwear and high-visibility clothing, and doesn't wear either, nor make any of the guests on the tour wear them...I just gave up. I haven't worn my hi-vis 'safety straps' in over 3 months.

No-one has corrected me yet.

The RCN pays lip-service to safety at best.

I thought you were working for the Army Reserves now?

 

[Navy_Pete]

I've given up on my local safety organization. When the head of the organization decides to take a tour of people through a space that requires safety footwear and high-visibility clothing, and doesn't wear either, nor make any of the guests on the tour wear them...I just gave up. I haven't worn my hi-vis 'safety straps' in over 3 months.

No-one has corrected me yet.

The RCN pays lip-service to safety at best.

Coastal FSEs are overall not great; some good people at the working level but the management is...lacking in expertise and backbone. They can follow a checklist but actual enforcement/oversight they are too eager to satisfy the operator side, vice looking out for the welfare of individuals.

Waiting for them to action some non-compliance to life safety requirements, but have been getting crickets for months.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I've given up on my local safety organization. When the head of the organization decides to take a tour of people through a space that requires safety footwear and high-visibility clothing, and doesn't wear either, nor make any of the guests on the tour wear them...I just gave up. I haven't worn my hi-vis 'safety straps' in over 3 months.

No-one has corrected me yet.

The RCN pays lip-service to safety at best.

I'm sure there might be a Union around who would like a photo of that

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Coastal FSEs are overall not great; some good people at the working level but the management is...lacking in expertise and backbone. They can follow a checklist but actual enforcement/oversight they are too eager to satisfy the operator side, vice looking out for the welfare of individuals.

Waiting for them to action some non-compliance to life safety requirements, but have been getting crickets for months.

At the shipyard, you won't last long as a worker or contractor if you don't follow the safety protocols. I have seen people booted off the site or given warning that they will if they don't compile. All the management abides by it as well. Same at many of the construction sites I used to regulate. Maybe you need a independent monitor that can issue "Stop Work Orders" to sort people out.

 

[GR66]

At the shipyard, you won't last long as a worker or contractor if you don't follow the safety protocols. I have seen people booted off the site or given warning that they will if they don't compile. All the management abides by it as well. Same at many of the construction sites I used to regulate. Maybe you need a independent monitor that can issue "Stop Work Orders" to sort people out.

It helps that as a manager in the civilian world you can be charged by the Ministry of Labour if you're found not to have properly enforced safety guidelines or properly trained your staff for the work they are doing.

 

[NavyShooter]

I thought you were working for the Army Reserves now?

Class A. I also do a full time gig with the PS working in a large building in HMC Dockyard. I am no longer a sailor in the fleet, but I am still within the organization.

If management actually cared...then I wouldn't have had to submit the work refusal the other year after the major flood in my building. The boss 2 levels up told me to my face that it was 'safe to work' in a space that was covered in the damp remains of the rat and mouse feces that got washed out onto the main floors and that all we needed to do as individuals was a quick tidy of our spaces to get back to work. I disagreed.

The same pipe system that leaked and flooded was patched, but not actually replaced. I'm awaiting the next flood with all of my important things off the floor this time...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Class A. I also do a full time gig with the PS working in a large building in HMC Dockyard. I am no longer a sailor in the fleet, but I am still within the organization.

If management actually cared...then I wouldn't have had to submit the work refusal the other year after the major flood in my building. The boss 2 levels up told me to my face that it was 'safe to work' in a space that was covered in the damp remains of the rat and mouse feces that got washed out onto the main floors and that all we needed to do as individuals was a quick tidy of our spaces to get back to work. I disagreed.

The same pipe system that leaked and flooded was patched, but not actually replaced. I'm awaiting the next flood with all of my important things off the floor this time...

The staff at the TC building in the South Terminal at YVR had similar issues with mould and flooding, the Regional Manager took the ADM for a tour who went into a sort of anaphylactic shock from the mould spores and had to be carted away by ambulance. A couple of weeks later they were moved out of that building.

 

[Navy_Pete]

At the shipyard, you won't last long as a worker or contractor if you don't follow the safety protocols. I have seen people booted off the site or given warning that they will if they don't compile. All the management abides by it as well. Same at many of the construction sites I used to regulate. Maybe you need a independent monitor that can issue "Stop Work Orders" to sort people out.

Which is as it should be.

I know that DND has some exemptions for operational reasons, which is totally reasonable in a shooting match, but absolutely no reason not to meet/exceed those standards when you can.

Catching a bullet or similar is an occupational hazard, but not meeting SOLAS rules and other national safety standards during peacetime is negligent IMHO, and should lead to all kinds of charges if someone does get hurt (mil or civilian). Also personnally think it's a huge disregard for your responsibility to protect your people from known risks that have basic controls already in place. Things are complicated enough without ignoring basic precautions, and some things are international standards for a reason. It's laughable to argue this kind of thing with random non-specialists in FSE who are essentially ivory tower policy weenies with zero experience on ships in operation.

VAC already rejects valid claims, so no idea why anyone in the miltary side takes that kind of risk as I'm sure a CF98 for something were you weren't wearing basic PPE (or not wearing it properly) and got injured would be another easy out for them.