Navy to replace official Heart of Oak march with ‘more inclusive’ music

[Humphrey Bogart]

I suspect it has more to do with living in ships at sea than with Heart of Oak, but feel free to provide any evidence to the contrary... Shall we do a look into why more women choose to not be in the infantry? Perhaps there is a song somewhere we can blame for that as well?

The reasons people choose to serve in any particular branch/element are many, but the march past is not one of them.

From what I've seen, if women do join, they generally are interested in very specific roles or as Officers. I would love to see a breakdown of what proportion of women that are serving are Officers. Very few women seem to have any interest in pursuing careers in any of the trades or positions that are STEM related.

This also mimics the trends in Universities & College. More women than men now attend University and are dominant in almost all programs, except for STEM which is overwhelmingly dominated by men.

I see this in my current line of work. Lots of women working in positions but very few have an interest in turning wrenches or using a hammer at the coal face where the metal meets the meat.

 

[Furniture]

From what I've seen, if women do join, they generally are interested in very specific roles or as Officers. I would love to see a breakdown of what proportion of women that are serving are Officers. Very few women seem to have any interest in pursuing careers in any of the trades or positions that are STEM related.

This also mimics the trends in Universities & College. More women than men now attend University and are dominant in almost all programs, except for STEM which is overwhelmingly dominated by men.

I see this in my current line of work. Lots of women working in positions but very few have an interest in turning wrenches or using a hammer at the coal face where the metal meets the meat.

Can't be any of that. A guy from a mostly female regiment, in a mostly female occupation, definitely not named after a princess descended from one of the most power/influential colonizers in the history of the world, has told me otherwise. It's all because the RCN has an old song with a few words that are unacceptable...

Edit: A song that I'm pretty sure 90% of the current sailors don't know the words to. At the last NDHQ C & PO's mess dinner when someone challenged the RCN members to sing the first verse, exactly one of us knew the words.

 

[Edward Campbell]

So in getting rid of this as part of our tradition of repeating British “things.” Can we reexamine the tradition of simply naming regiments after British ones and adding “of Canada.” Surely the costs of kilts, extra work in having highland dress and marches, is a factor. Similarly I don’t think the historic links to Scotland are really huge factors in recruiting anymore.

Caution: Geezer Eruption!

Bingo!

The longer I served the less and less British I felt and the less I valued many of our imported traditions.

But, to be clear, based on my own observations and experience - and your views may, for very good reasons, be very, very different - I value our ties to the US even less.

We have, 120+ years after Paardeberg, an enviable and well earned reputation as Canadian soldiers who fought and still fight and win Canada's battles and we fight as well or better than almost any damned force anywhere, ever.

We need not take a back seat to anyone - there may be a few forces who are our equals, damned few are any better when the going gets tough.

Going on 50 years ago now I gave a briefing to my officers and senior NCOs; I opined that the Canadian soldier had four all important, individual human attributes that made her/him better than most in the word. (S)he was, I sad: Tough; Superbly Disciplined; Very Well Trained and Adequately Equipped.

Toughness, I explained, was NOT "macho thuggery," as one of our favourite generals described it, rather it was the quality that let good people try just a bit harder than the gal or guy in the other Army; discipline, I opined, as what let us conquer our own fear; training made us get the best out of ourselves and our often less than the best equipment. I was asked to expand on my remarks at a symposium in Mobile Command and I was asked to "bookend' my notion with two other, organizational attributes: that those people were well organized and well led. I was never 100% sure either was 100% true. I'm still not sure the military's most senior leaders and managers are as good as the men and women in the ranks but I'm always happy to be wrong.

By the way, I like the way our New Zealand counterparts incorporate their indigenous culture into their military.

My 2 cents ...

 

[daftandbarmy]

Caution: Geezer Eruption!

Bingo!

The longer I served the less and less British I felt and the less I valued many of our imported traditions.

But, to be clear, based on my own observations and experience - and your views may, for very good reasons, be very, very different - I value our ties to the US even less.

We have, 120+ years after Paardeberg, an enviable and well earned reputation as Canadian soldiers who fought and still fight and win Canada's battles and we fight as well or better than almost any damned force anywhere, ever.

We need not take a back seat to anyone - there may be a few forces who are our equals, damned few are any better when the going gets tough.

Going on 50 years ago now I gave a briefing to my officers and senior NCOs; I opined that the Canadian soldier had four all important, individual human attributes that made her/him better than most in the word. (S)he was, I sad: Tough; Superbly Disciplined; Very Well Trained and Adequately Equipped.

Toughness, I explained, was NOT "macho thuggery," as one of our favourite generals described it, rather it was the quality that let good people try just a bit harder than the gal or guy in the other Army; discipline, I opined, as what let us conquer our own fear; training made us get the best out of ourselves and our often less than the best equipment. I was asked to expand on my remarks at a symposium in Mobile Command and I was asked to "bookend' my notion with two other, organizational attributes: that those people were well organized and well led. I was never 100% sure either was 100% true. I'm still not sure the military's most senior leaders and managers are as good as the men and women in the ranks but I'm always happy to be wrong.

By the way, I like the way our New Zealand counterparts incorporate their indigenous culture into their military.

My 2 cents ...

I agree!

Meanwhile, pips and crowns and, eventually, Sam Browne belts etc

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

From the RCN Association:

There are 760 women currently serving in the ranks of the RCN, representing 11.3% of the navy's regular force, a number lower than the average of women serving in the CAF in general.

I wonder why that is?

I'll tell you why that is, and I hold this from a lot of "exit" interviews, if I can call them that (That is I spoke with a fair number of women that released from the RCN to find out why they quit/did not resign for further service): One of the major activity on a ship is cleaning. Yep! we're always cleaning something, somewhere on the ship. We spend about 20% of the working day cleaning, and then some at night. You are on watch on the bridge in quiet time: you grab a piece of cloth and clean!

And women, for the most part, join the military to get away from household chores. The Navy quickly lose its appeal to them because to quote some: "I can do that at home and not have to bother with the long hours or being away from my loved ones. I didn't join to clean."

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'll tell you why that is, and I hold this from a lot of "exit" interviews, if I can call them that (That is I spoke with a fair number of women that released from the RCN to find out why they quit/did not resign for further service): One of the major activity on a ship is cleaning. Yep! we're always cleaning something, somewhere on the ship. We spend about 20% of the working day cleaning, and then some at night. You are on watch on the bridge in quiet time: you grab a piece of cloth and clean!

And women, for the most part, join the military to get away from household chores. The Navy quickly lose its appeal to them because to quote some: "I can do that at home and not have to bother with the long hours or being away from my loved ones. I didn't join to clean."

NTS: never try to show your wife how to 'properly' mop the floor ever again ...

 

[Edward Campbell]

NTS: never try to show your wife how to 'properly' mop the floor ever again ...

There is some remote possibility of surviving after doing such a thing?

 

[daftandbarmy]

There is some remote possibility of surviving after doing such a thing?

Define 'survive'

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Actually, my wife knows that I know how to clean floors ... so I am always the one that does it.

 

[FSTO]

People who bitch about cleaning stations should see what it’s like on a ship that doesn't do cleaning stations.

 

[Underway]

Caution: Geezer Eruption!

Bingo!

The longer I served the less and less British I felt and the less I valued many of our imported traditions.

But, to be clear, based on my own observations and experience - and your views may, for very good reasons, be very, very different - I value our ties to the US even less.

We have, 120+ years after Paardeberg, an enviable and well earned reputation as Canadian soldiers who fought and still fight and win Canada's battles and we fight as well or better than almost any damned force anywhere, ever.

We need not take a back seat to anyone - there may be a few forces who are our equals, damned few are any better when the going gets tough.

Going on 50 years ago now I gave a briefing to my officers and senior NCOs; I opined that the Canadian soldier had four all important, individual human attributes that made her/him better than most in the word. (S)he was, I sad: Tough; Superbly Disciplined; Very Well Trained and Adequately Equipped.

Toughness, I explained, was NOT "macho thuggery," as one of our favourite generals described it, rather it was the quality that let good people try just a bit harder than the gal or guy in the other Army; discipline, I opined, as what let us conquer our own fear; training made us get the best out of ourselves and our often less than the best equipment. I was asked to expand on my remarks at a symposium in Mobile Command and I was asked to "bookend' my notion with two other, organizational attributes: that those people were well organized and well led. I was never 100% sure either was 100% true. I'm still not sure the military's most senior leaders and managers are as good as the men and women in the ranks but I'm always happy to be wrong.

By the way, I like the way our New Zealand counterparts incorporate their indigenous culture into their military.

My 2 cents ...

I as well, am not a fan of imported traditions. I danced a jig they day the RCN jettisoned Trafalgar day and introduce Niobie day . I am far to nationalistic to put up with someone else's celebration.

This is a tempest in a teapot. The fact that Skippy started beaking about "warriors not woke" (rich from a career politico who has been a useless backbencher for most of his adult life, and would probably piss himself the first time he saw sea state 6) is far more irritating to me than actually changing the March.

How about this.

The public can stow their opinions on what "my" traditions are. They already get to choose where I fight and die, and with what (or lack thereof) equipment I have to do that with. How about they let the RCN decide their own traditions and f-off.*

(*Army.ca members exempt... I love you folks!)

 

[The Bread Guy]

I agree!

Meanwhile, pips and crowns and, eventually, Sam Browne belts etc

But hey, that was supposed to be revenue neutral/no net cost, right?

Actually, my wife knows that I know how to clean floors ... so I am always the one that does it.

Just like some spouses leave the ironing to those who know how not to create "railroad tracks".

... The longer I served the less and less British I felt and the less I valued many of our imported traditions.

But, to be clear, based on my own observations and experience - and your views may, for very good reasons, be very, very different - I value our ties to the US even less ...

I like this.

... I like the way our New Zealand counterparts incorporate their indigenous culture into their military.

Same, but the biggest problem with doing anything similar here would be that our Indigenous populations are nowhere NEAR as homogenous as the Maori are in NZ. Hard to pin down a truly pan-Canadian Indigenous "culture".

 

[FSTO]

Same, but the biggest problem with doing anything similar here would be that our Indigenous populations are nowhere NEAR as homogenous as the Maori are in NZ. Hard to pin down a truly pan-Canadian Indigenous "culture".

We found that out when there was considerations towards calling the new destroyers Tribals.

 

[Jarnhamar]

People who bitch about cleaning stations should see what it’s like on a ship that doesn't do cleaning stations.

I've seen some videos of what the toilets look like. Sure makes me appreciate blue rockets.

 

[Jarnhamar]

It won't make it better for you. But how about the ~11% of the RCN who are female?

I've been thinking about your question.

The women I know and have worked with in the military (troops and NCOs) seemed to have just wanted to fit in and not be treated differently. Now I'm wondering if stuff like this bothered them more than they let on and they just ignored it for the sake of fitting in.

 

[markppcli]

Now I'm wondering if stuff like this bothered them more than they let on and they just ignored it for the sake of fitting in.

Ding ding ding. Probably goes double for a lot of minority soldiers who laughed at racial jokes because the alternative was being a social pariah.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I as well, am not a fan of imported traditions. I danced a jig they day the RCN jettisoned Trafalgar day and introduce Niobie day . I am far to nationalistic to put up with someone else's celebration.

This is a tempest in a teapot. The fact that Skippy started beaking about "warriors not woke" (rich from a career politico who has been a useless backbencher for most of his adult life, and would probably piss himself the first time he saw sea state 6) is far more irritating to me than actually changing the March.

How about this.

The public can stow their opinions on what "my" traditions are. They already get to choose where I fight and die, and with what (or lack thereof) equipment I have to do that with. How about they let the RCN decide their own traditions and f-off.*

(*Army.ca members exempt... I love you folks!)

 

[daftandbarmy]

I've been thinking about your question.

The women I know and have worked with in the military (troops and NCOs) seemed to have just wanted to fit in and not be treated differently. Now I'm wondering if stuff like this bothered them more than they let on and they just ignored it for the sake of fitting in.

More practically, given the 'threat environment', western militaries especially (with their declining birth rates) will need to be able to quickly mobilize and deploy larger portions of their populations than ever before.

Women are 50% of the population. To NOT be able to effectively employ that proportion of any country's national human resource pool during a major conflict could put national survival at risk.

 

[dimsum]

Probably goes double for a lot of minority soldiers who laughed at racial jokes because the alternative was being a social pariah.

At the risk of slight doxxing, can confirm.

I remember a few years ago filling out surveys about whether I was treated differently, etc and I always said “no”. Because literally I was not. I don’t think I got promoted faster or slower, or got this or that task because of my ethnicity.

But, later I also realized I never really stopped and thought about the overall question - they never asked if I consciously or unconsciously changed my behaviour to fit in, like the example up top. That got me thinking about other examples that came up, and while I thought it was just “the shit you go through in training” - now I know it’s not right.

But to @Underway ’s points, I have always fundamentally disagreed with the “warrior / warfighter” term over soldier / sailor / air person. I have said this here before, but warrior / warfighter implies that their main job is to fight in a war. What happens if there isn’t a shooting war? Are they worthless then?

 

[Jarnhamar]

But to @Underway ’s points, I have always fundamentally disagreed with the “warrior / warfighter” term over soldier / sailor / air person. I have said this here before, but warrior / warfighter implies that their main job is to fight in a war. What happens if there isn’t a shooting war? Are they worthless then?

Me too but for different reasons.

In my opinion everything from the get go is about establishing a hierarchy and pecking order. Kids on their infantry DP1 will brag about being "rifleman number 1"

In a light infantry battalion it's rifle company -> jump company-> recce platoon -> sniper or pathfinder.

I see the "you're a warrior" stuff as low hanging fruit the CoC uses for that we're better than X stuff. Few years ago I recall an infantry OC giving that warrior speech and lookibg over and seen the kid who didn't bring his jacket or sleeping back to the exercise sitting there picking his nose and eating it and thinking to myself "yeah, right".