New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Colin Parkinson]

OFSV #2 is coming along nicely

As is the first AOP's

 

[Cloud Cover]

The AOPS is huge, eh. Looks like folks on top of the bridge could play hockey up there. Will be interesting to see it in the water dwarfing the Kingston’s and the frigates.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Somewhat related, interesting how good ideas have unintended results. 2003 would have been a good time to do the NSS and have replacement vessels before the the older vessels failed.

http://www.news1130.com/2018/02/05/federal-government-gave-millions-to-irving-subsidiary-records-reveal/

 

[jollyjacktar]

The AOPS is huge, eh. Looks like folks on top of the bridge could play hockey up there. Will be interesting to see it in the water dwarfing the Kingston’s and the frigates.

She's a queer looking girl, seems to be too squat for her length.  But she needs to be so for what she is intended to do.  And yes, she is big.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Of course she is: She is one and half time the size of the frigates.

I don't know why we have to keep explaining this, even to seamen sometimes, but size of ships is measured by displacement, not length or width or height or draught.

She weighs a little over 6000 tons to the frigates 4200 tons, hence the is 1.5 times the size of a frigate.

We use this method because the thing that matters in ships is mo-men-tum. She will not be anywhere near the capacity of a frigate for acceleration and deceleration. Drivers beware if they have not worked large, heavy (I would almost say underpowered - at least to a naval officer) ships: Take it slow 'cause you will need more room! Ask the tanker drivers 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You just have more time to watch your mistakes unfold...... ;D

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Ah yes! Maritime accidents: You see them coming for miles ... and many long minutes (made even longer by the pit in your stomach that makes everything feel like slow motion), in full knowledge that there is just nothing in the universe that will stop what you know is about to happen from happening.

:nod:

 

[Good2Golf]

Ah yes! Maritime accidents: You see them coming for miles ... and many long minutes (made even longer by the pit in your stomach that makes everything feel like slow motion), in full knowledge that there is just nothing in the universe that will stop what you know is about to happen from happening.

:nod:

I had a USNS/MSC bos'n once tell me about watching a Kevlar hawser snap....for 90 seconds.  They knew it was going...and SFA they could do about it, except clear the deck. :nod:

 

[jollyjacktar]

Of course she is: She is one and half time the size of the frigates.

I don't know why we have to keep explaining this, even to seamen sometimes, but size of ships is measured by displacement, not length or width or height or draught.

She weighs a little over 6000 tons to the frigates 4200 tons, hence the is 1.5 times the size of a frigate.

Frigates can load out much heavier than 4200 tons, depending on the required condition.

Harry is more of a linebacker than running back.  You want to get all that displacement to punch through, just like a linebacker.  She's designed for power not speed.  Still makes her look like one of the ugly step sisters from Cinderella.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I'm comparing light loads displacement.

I think the HAL's top up at around 4800 tons full load, but then, the HDW will top up at around 7000 in full load also, so it's still the same.

And BTW, , icebreaking is not done by "punching through", it is done by crushing down. Look at the bow section of the HDW on the picture. Above the water line, the bow is mostly wide and blunt, flaring out to the sides quickly - not a very hydrodynamic shape, nor shape that would do any more than pushing the ice inefficiently in front of the ship, which would block her way quickly.

However, slightly above the waterline itself, the hull takes sharp backward turn and then goes at about a 30 degree angle towards the back, creating fairly flat "sled like" shape: That's the icebreaker's trade mark (if you look at merchant ships, or the old AOR's you would see a "knife-like" shape going straight down like a wedge - with or without a bulbous bow). The ice breaker uses that "sled-like" angled hull to ride up on the ice until you get to the point where the weight of the ship riding on the ice is heavy enough to crush it below the ship, the flared bow then serving both to do the crushing and to move the crushed ice out of the way. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Nothing more peaceful, than trying to sleep on a ship breaking ice..................

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm comparing light loads displacement.

I think the HAL's top up at around 4800 tons full load, but then, the HDW will top up at around 7000 in full load also, so it's still the same.

And BTW, , icebreaking is not done by "punching through", it is done by crushing down. Look at the bow section of the HDW on the picture. Above the water line, the bow is mostly wide and blunt, flaring out to the sides quickly - not a very hydrodynamic shape, nor shape that would do any more than pushing the ice inefficiently in front of the ship, which would block her way quickly.

However, slightly above the waterline itself, the hull takes sharp backward turn and then goes at about a 30 degree angle towards the back, creating fairly flat "sled like" shape: That's the icebreaker's trade mark (if you look at merchant ships, or the old AOR's you would see a "knife-like" shape going straight down like a wedge - with or without a bulbous bow). The ice breaker uses that "sled-like" angled hull to ride up on the ice until you get to the point where the weight of the ship riding on the ice is heavy enough to crush it below the ship, the flared bow then serving both to do the crushing and to move the crushed ice out of the way.

Thanks for that, OGBD, I really enjoy learning, at my advanced age, from this site.

 

[jollyjacktar]

And BTW, , icebreaking is not done by "punching through", it is done by crushing down. Look at the bow section of the HDW on the picture. Above the water line, the bow is mostly wide and blunt, flaring out to the sides quickly - not a very hydrodynamic shape, nor shape that would do any more than pushing the ice inefficiently in front of the ship, which would block her way quickly.

Crushing down is a better term for what I was envisioning in my minds eye.  Ride up, crush down through, move forwards, ride up .........  like walking on deep snow with a hard crust on top that you have to break through each step as you move forwards.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Found this article on arstechnica on the problems of the German F125 acceptance, but the comment from a previous member of the build team was of the most interest.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/02/german-navy-experiences-lcs-affect-in-spades-as-new-frigate-fails-sea-trials/

Matthew.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

To quote one of our great protest song of the 60's:

"Oh! When will they ever learn, Oh! When will they ever learn"


And us too, unfortunately.

 

[Rifleman62]

"German military procurement is “one hell of a complete disaster. It will take years to sort this problem out.”

Looks like their military procurement "people" went to the same Academe as the Canadians. Same as their Systems and our Phoenix people. ;D

..... the comment from a previous member of the build team was of the most interest.

Sounds like the Germans and Canadians both have the same cunning plan.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACnqI1l4I9s&feature=youtu.be


Wonder if we could sell the Germans CH-148 Cyclones?

 

[Loachman]

I don't follow this thread, but stumbled across the article below earlier today and thought that it might be of interest.

Davie et Irving: traitement à deux vitesses à Ottawa

Publié le 09 février 2018 à 06h57 | Mis à jour à 06h57

www.lapresse.ca/affaires/economie/transports/201802/09/01-5153208-davie-et-irving-traitement-a-deux-vitesses-a-ottawa.php

Via Google Translate:

The Davie and Irving shipyards do not seem to be entitled to the same treatment when they send an invitation to the Minister responsible for federal contracts. A deputy minister warned Minister Carla Qualtrough not to visit the Lévis shipyard last fall but "recommended" her to go to the Halifax shipyard, internal notes consulted by La Presse reveal.

These briefing documents, obtained under the Access to Information Act, were prepared shortly after the appointment of Ms. Qualtrough as Minister of Public Services and Procurement. Deputy Minister Marie Lemay sets out guidelines on the response to be provided following separate invitations by Davie and Irving at the end of last summer.

These two companies have been competing for years in the hope of winning maritime contracts with the Government of Canada. Irving has raised more than $ 60 billion in contracts, while Davie has been excluded from almost the entire federal procurement process.

SENTIMENT OF EXCLUSION

The Davie shipyard, which has experienced many financial difficulties and shareholder changes in recent decades, found itself in the middle of a political storm last fall. The company was expecting a contract from the Canadian Navy to build a second supply vessel, after delivering a first one - the Asterix - last December. Ottawa did not finally order a second boat.

In the absence of contracts, Davie has laid off 800 of his 1,200 workers in recent months, provoking an outcry in the Quebec City area. Several politicians - including Prime Minister Philippe Couillard - have denounced systematic discrimination against Davie, while Irving and Vancouver's Seaspan have garnered the bulk of federal contracts in recent years.

"SYSTEMATIC OBSTRUCTION"

The briefing notes obtained by La Presse follow the same logic, says a well-informed source of the naval industry, who requested anonymity for fear of reprisals from the federal government.

"This deputy minister's recommendation is just another proof of the systematic obstruction of federal public servants with the Quebec shipyard, which is still the largest in the country."

In Davie's internal documents, the deputy minister recommends that Carla Qualtrough agree to meet with the big boss Alex Vicefield, but suggests that she refuse to attend the inauguration of the Asterix, since the place and the date had not yet been fixed at that time.

On the Irving file, the deputy minister advises to have both a meeting with the big boss, James Irving, and a site visit.

"The reasoning is that it would be beneficial to know the extent of your portfolio and continue to encourage a strategic relationship with Irving." - Deputy Minister Marie Lemay

The letter written on behalf of the Minister indicates that she will be pleased to visit the Halifax shipyard "as soon as [her] schedule allows [her] time". Ms. Qualtrough went to Irving's facilities on December 19 at a formal ceremony.

TWENTY VISITS

According to a rough calculation, Trudeau government ministers visited the Irving and Seaspan shipyards about 20 times in the last two years. Davie received two visits from Jean-Yves Duclos, Minister of Families, Children and Social Development, during the same period.

In the face of growing pressure in the Quebec City area, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced last month the launch of negotiations between Ottawa and Davie for the leasing of four icebreakers. This contract, if it materializes, could allow about 300 workers to be recalled for a period of two years.

"We are proud that Chantier Davie Canada has been selected by the Trudeau government to deliver four icebreakers to the Canadian Coast Guard," spokesman Frédérik Boisvert said yesterday.

"COMPETITIVE PROCESS"

In an email to La Presse, a spokesperson for Public Services and Procurement Canada noted that the contracts at Irving and Seaspan were awarded "as a result of an open, fair and transparent competitive process." She recalls that Davie "has the right to bid on small vessel construction projects, as well as ship repair, refit and maintenance".

This spokesperson added that Minister Qualtrough refused to visit the Davie shipyard on the occasion of the inauguration of Asterix "because the location of the launch had not yet been determined."

Contracts awarded to Irving and Seaspan shipyards under the National Shipbuilding Strategy total more than $75 billion. Davie, who has been excluded from this program, has received approximately $650 million in federal contracts in recent years.

In Carla Qualtrough's office, a spokeswoman pointed out that the minister and her staff "have met with the Davie, Seaspan and Irving shipyard management and unions on a number of occasions since the Minister's appointment."

"Our Government recognizes the excellent work done by Davie employees, and we have begun discussions with shipyard leaders on options to meet the Canadian Coast Guard's need for interim icebreakers," he said. "Given that Davie is currently in discussion with our government, we will explore the possibility of a visit when the discussions are over."

- With William Leclerc, La Presse

 

[MTShaw]

I don't follow this thread, but stumbled across the article below earlier today and thought that it might be of interest.

Davie et Irving: traitement à deux vitesses à Ottawa

Publié le 09 février 2018 à 06h57 | Mis à jour à 06h57

www.lapresse.ca/affaires/economie/transports/201802/09/01-5153208-davie-et-irving-traitement-a-deux-vitesses-a-ottawa.php

Via Google Translate:

The Davie and Irving shipyards do not seem to be entitled to the same treatment when they send an invitation to the Minister responsible for federal contracts. A deputy minister warned Minister Carla Qualtrough not to visit the Lévis shipyard last fall but "recommended" her to go to the Halifax shipyard, internal notes consulted by La Presse reveal.

These briefing documents, obtained under the Access to Information Act, were prepared shortly after the appointment of Ms. Qualtrough as Minister of Public Services and Procurement. Deputy Minister Marie Lemay sets out guidelines on the response to be provided following separate invitations by Davie and Irving at the end of last summer.

These two companies have been competing for years in the hope of winning maritime contracts with the Government of Canada. Irving has raised more than $ 60 billion in contracts, while Davie has been excluded from almost the entire federal procurement process.

SENTIMENT OF EXCLUSION

The Davie shipyard, which has experienced many financial difficulties and shareholder changes in recent decades, found itself in the middle of a political storm last fall. The company was expecting a contract from the Canadian Navy to build a second supply vessel, after delivering a first one - the Asterix - last December. Ottawa did not finally order a second boat.

In the absence of contracts, Davie has laid off 800 of his 1,200 workers in recent months, provoking an outcry in the Quebec City area. Several politicians - including Prime Minister Philippe Couillard - have denounced systematic discrimination against Davie, while Irving and Vancouver's Seaspan have garnered the bulk of federal contracts in recent years.

"SYSTEMATIC OBSTRUCTION"

The briefing notes obtained by La Presse follow the same logic, says a well-informed source of the naval industry, who requested anonymity for fear of reprisals from the federal government.

"This deputy minister's recommendation is just another proof of the systematic obstruction of federal public servants with the Quebec shipyard, which is still the largest in the country."

In Davie's internal documents, the deputy minister recommends that Carla Qualtrough agree to meet with the big boss Alex Vicefield, but suggests that she refuse to attend the inauguration of the Asterix, since the place and the date had not yet been fixed at that time.

On the Irving file, the deputy minister advises to have both a meeting with the big boss, James Irving, and a site visit.

"The reasoning is that it would be beneficial to know the extent of your portfolio and continue to encourage a strategic relationship with Irving." - Deputy Minister Marie Lemay

The letter written on behalf of the Minister indicates that she will be pleased to visit the Halifax shipyard "as soon as [her] schedule allows [her] time". Ms. Qualtrough went to Irving's facilities on December 19 at a formal ceremony.

TWENTY VISITS

According to a rough calculation, Trudeau government ministers visited the Irving and Seaspan shipyards about 20 times in the last two years. Davie received two visits from Jean-Yves Duclos, Minister of Families, Children and Social Development, during the same period.

In the face of growing pressure in the Quebec City area, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced last month the launch of negotiations between Ottawa and Davie for the leasing of four icebreakers. This contract, if it materializes, could allow about 300 workers to be recalled for a period of two years.

"We are proud that Chantier Davie Canada has been selected by the Trudeau government to deliver four icebreakers to the Canadian Coast Guard," spokesman Frédérik Boisvert said yesterday.

"COMPETITIVE PROCESS"

In an email to La Presse, a spokesperson for Public Services and Procurement Canada noted that the contracts at Irving and Seaspan were awarded "as a result of an open, fair and transparent competitive process." She recalls that Davie "has the right to bid on small vessel construction projects, as well as ship repair, refit and maintenance".

This spokesperson added that Minister Qualtrough refused to visit the Davie shipyard on the occasion of the inauguration of Asterix "because the location of the launch had not yet been determined."

Contracts awarded to Irving and Seaspan shipyards under the National Shipbuilding Strategy total more than $75 billion. Davie, who has been excluded from this program, has received approximately $650 million in federal contracts in recent years.

In Carla Qualtrough's office, a spokeswoman pointed out that the minister and her staff "have met with the Davie, Seaspan and Irving shipyard management and unions on a number of occasions since the Minister's appointment."

"Our Government recognizes the excellent work done by Davie employees, and we have begun discussions with shipyard leaders on options to meet the Canadian Coast Guard's need for interim icebreakers," he said. "Given that Davie is currently in discussion with our government, we will explore the possibility of a visit when the discussions are over."

- With William Leclerc, La Presse

Davie are the worse of the worst sore losers.

 

[Underway]

Wonder if we could sell the Germans CH-148 Cyclones?

Oddly enough, the Germans were (are?) seriously considering the Cyclone.  Odds are we will have proven the airframe and systems by the time they are looking for a replacement for the Sea King.  The convergences of Canadian/German procurement is creepy coincidental in many ways.  Now if we could pick up some Puma IFV's...

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I spoke to a number of German Officers, recently. It was spooky how closely events in their military mirrored CF misfortunes.