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Partition

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Brad Sallows said:
Municipalities have (or would have) enough resources if they focused on municipal responsibilities and didn't roll over for every demand or suffer from weak attention spans.  "GoGo" at the municipal level is about basic infrastructure and service provision at the lowest possible cost.  Cities get into trouble when the people running them create projects more interesting than sewer maintenance for themselves or subordinate budget management to political and ideological fashion statements.

:goodpost:

Exactly right. Municipal engineers, by providing clean water and collecting sewage and garbage, do more for public health than does Health Canada. The city streets and sidewalks are the arteries of the socio-economic body: just like the arteries of the human body they need to be kept open and in good order. Police, fire, some parks and recreation facilities ~ to promote good health and social contentment ~ and that's about it for a city's Priority 1 tasks.
 
I would add maintaining the streets and sidewalks and snow removal to the list.
 
This article, which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Ottawa Citizen, is full of numbers and dollars so it will not surprise you that I like it, but it is related to partition:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/health/Kelly+Egan+Quebec+relies+Ontario+fill+Outaouais+health+care/9670258/story.html
ottawa_citizen_logo.JPG

Quebec relies on Ontario to fill Outaouais’s health-care gaps

BY KELLY EGAN, OTTAWA CITIZEN

MARCH 27, 2014

OTTAWA — A buddy of mine broke his leg while cycling on the Gatineau side last summer.

After an X-ray and a dose of painkillers at the old Hull hospital, the first order of business was this: How quickly could they ship the busted biker to Ottawa for surgery?

An Aylmer family, we learn this week, waited three years for a one-page coroner’s report on the death of their son in a terrible head-on crash.

The Wakefield hospital, meanwhile, is so over-run with emergency patients there are wisecracks about third-world conditions — from its own regional health authority!

Dear candidates in the April 7 Quebec election: for the love of God, what is going on with health care in the Outaouais?

There is a long-held bias on this side of the river that hospitals and health-care on côté Quebec are a poor cousin to, say, Ottawa’s Cadillac heart institute and first-class children’s hospital.

To sound machiavellian, is it a matter that Quebec City needn’t worry about the Outaouais’s health needs when it can just fling the more complex cases to Ottawa?

The number of Quebec residents using Ottawa hospitals is really quite remarkable. Are they, in a sense, voting with their feet?

The Ottawa Hospital — between its two campuses and the rehab centre and Heart Institute — admitted 16,491 patients from Quebec in 2013 (the lowest number in four years). In the two emergency departments, 8,095 Quebec residents were treated last year, a figure about 30 per cent higher than in 2009.

The number of Quebec mothers who gave birth at Ottawa’s Montfort Hospital in 2013 was roughly 700.

Imagine this. The number of Quebec patients using the Montfort’s emergency department has jumped from 3,726 in fiscal 2009-10 to 9,171 in fiscal 2012/13, forming 17 per cent of the entire patient load in that department.

Little wonder that in 2012, the PQ health ministry estimated that $107 million was headed to Ontario to pay for Quebec patients.

Think of the multimillion-dollar expansions that have gone on at the Civic/General/Montfort in the past decade. Was much of it to accommodate out-of-province patients?

Doug Angus is a health economist at the University of Ottawa. He suspects the Outaouais has suffered from the same kind of neglect that eastern Ontario sometimes gets from Queen’s Park.

“The Outaouais has always been kind of neglected,” he said Thursday. “I think there’s been a subconscious understanding that, ‘well, they’re right next to Ottawa’.”

He makes the reasonable point that it would unwise to attempt to replicate in Gatineau the same kind of “centres of excellence” — whether cardiac or pediatric — that we have in Ottawa.

It would be smarter, he argues, to have connected health authorities that treat Ottawa-Gatineau as one service area, instead of competing jurisdictions for scarce health-care dollars.

“It would make a lot more sense if we could just ignore the bloody politics of the two provincial governments and say this is a national capital region. Why shouldn’t we be looking at this whole region in its entirety so we can make better use of these services?”

The Canadian Institute for Health Information has a handy-dandy tool that allows comparisons between provinces and cities. By almost every measure, Gatineau comes out worse than Ottawa, or much of the rest of Canada.

The institute came up with a base figure of 100 in 2009 to compare the number of deaths in Canadian hospitals. The national average has now fallen to 89. The Outaouais is at 122, among the worst in the province, and the number is steady.

Only 76 per cent of West Quebec residents say they have their own doctor. The national average is 85, and Ottawa is at 88.

Smoking rates are at 20.3 per cent across Canada but 27.1 per cent in greater Gatineau. The number of deaths that were avoidable with “better prevention or care” is 183 per 100,000 across Canada. In our little slice of Quebec? 214. In Ottawa area? 166.

It is not that the Gatineau regional hospitals are standing still. It is a network of three main hospitals, plus many other stand-alone clinics and geriatric facilities. It costs in excess of $400 million to run annually and the main Gatineau hospital recently expanded its ER department.

Yet, they’re pouring over the border. Health care, honestly. It just never ends, until it’s the death of us.

By the numbers:

16,491: Quebec patients admitted to The Ottawa Hospital, Heart Institute and Rehabilitation Centre in 2013.

17: Percentage of Montfort Hospital ER patients from Quebec in 2012/13.

700: Number of Quebec mothers giving birth at Montfort in 2013.

27.1: Percentage of smokers in the Outaouais

18.5: Percentage of smokers in Ottawa area

To contact Kelly Egan, please call 613-726-5896, or email kegan@ottawacitizen.com or twitter.com/kellyegancolumn

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen


The partition message is in the numbers. Gatineau is NOT part of Quebec, it, including the Pontiac ~ across the river from Petawawa, is economically and socially and even culturally Part of the National Capital Region which makes, it, by default, Canadian rather than Québécois, and I will expect it to secede, along with e.g. Akwasasne and Ungava, very early on during the independence negotiations. And I expect that Quebec nationalists will be happy to be rid of it, geography or not.
 
Along that line, I am a proponent that the NCR should be a designated regional district (like Washington DC) and should have the NCC along with area municipal governments merge to govern.

As well it should be noted that the Ottawa Hospital charges Quebecers up front since that province takes forever to transfer funds. 
 
This article, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail looks at the post Scottish referendum blues that infects the Quebec sovereignty movement ... for now:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/parizeau-says-sovereigntists-stand-before-a-field-of-ruin/article20712452/#dashboard/follows/
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Parizeau says Quebec sovereigntists ‘stand before a field of ruin’

LES PERREAUX
MONTREAL — The Globe and Mail

Published Friday, Sep. 19 2014

Quebec separatist leaders went to Scotland to find inspiration from the Yes campaign of their nationalist counterparts, but now they jet home to face the harsh reality that the fundamentals of their movement have not been worse in 40 years.

When a poll in early September showed Scotland’s pro-independence side ahead in what proved to be only a momentary lead, the issue of Quebec sovereignty surged again to the forefront in the province. Perhaps not in the minds of most Quebeckers, who had thrown the Parti Québécois out of office five months earlier, but certainly among the political class and media. The airwaves filled with musings on whether the Scots would show the way for a third referendum on Quebec sovereignty.

Stalwarts from the Quebec movement and a host of PQ leadership hopefuls flocked to Scotland, and dreamed. “It shows the desire to be independent is extremely topical,” Pierre Karl Péladeau, said in an interview published Friday in one of the newspapers he owns. “We’ve learned from what the Scots have done.”

In the midst of the excitement, however, none other than Jacques Parizeau offered a more sobering assessment of the true state of affairs for Quebec independence in a video-recorded speech that will be presented to sovereigntists this weekend. “Sovereigntists today stand before a field of ruin,” Mr. Parizeau said in excerpts obtained by Radio-Canada. “There is confusion in their spirits that I have not seen in a very long time.”

Those spirits now return to reality: The sovereignty option sits near historic lows in popularity. By the time the Liberal majority mandate is up for renewal, likely in 2018, the PQ will have held power for only 18 months of the previous 15 years. The party is leaderless and divided on the right-left spectrum as well as on fundamental questions of the way ahead for independence. The party’s result in the April election was the worst in 44 years.

“We are speaking about separation more now than we were when they were in government,” said Stéphane Dion, the Liberal MP who remains the most vigorous and visible separatist fighter in Quebec.

While the PQ obsesses over the national question, the Liberal government appears poised to embark on the most ambitious cost-cutting program the province has seen at least since the 1990s, and perhaps ever. Government leaks suggest everything from the structure of the heath-care system to daycare, parental leave and a wide assortment of school programs, from milk to libraries to special education, are about to be chopped.

“What I’ve heard in the past few weeks [from the PQ], and what I see in coming weeks, is a discussion on pure theoretical ambitions on how they will make another referendum,” Premier Philippe Couillard said Friday. “What about jobs, what about public finances, what about what kind of society we want to live in? I’m not hearing anything about that.”

So what have sovereigntists, who came within a percentage point of winning the 1995 referendum, drawn from the Scottish experience? Interim PQ leader Stéphane Bédard highlighted how the United Kingdom accepted a 50-per-cent-plus-one threshold for independence, something Canadian courts and law have left artfully vague at “clear majority.”

Alexandre Cloutier, one of the PQ members the party sent to observe the referendum, says he was inspired by how the Scottish movement cut across ethnic and other lines that divide society. “They brought new arrivals into their project. They were united. One of the problems we have is division,” Mr. Cloutier told reporters. “We have so much work to do before we can get anywhere close to what they had in Scotland.”


I suspect that part of the Quebec sovereigntists' problem is that the core of their grievance is cultural and, especially, linguistic. They are facing (while trying to ignore) the fact that French is, most probably, doomed in North America. British author/journalist/published (and white supremacist?) Arthur Kemp coined the phrase "demographics is destiny." These data show us, pretty conclusively, that there is a direct correlation between GNP and birth rates: a higher GNP ≈ a lower birthrate. Canada, with, in 2011, a national birthrate of 1.61 is below the "replacement" rate which is, generally, held to be 2.1. Thus Canada, like every G7 nation requires immigration to grow its population. Quebec's birthrate is 1.69, slightly above the national average, but, and it's a Big BUT, Quebec's share of immigrants is too low and, therefore, Quebec's share of Canada's population will continue to shrink and since Quebec is the only place in the Americas, including French possessions, where French is reasonably strong, the continued existence of French in the Americas is in real doubt.

Because language, which is central to culture in Quebec, is the key issue, the "cause" is far more emotional than it was in Scotland. The Scottish "Yes" side had some economic arguments for separation - they were all poor argument, in my opin ion, but they had some. Quebec sovereigntists generally ignore economics because a) it's not what their 'cause' is all about, and b) economic issues tend to frighten "soft nationalist" Quebecers away from sovereignty.

I do not believe the sovereignty dream is dead in Quebec, but I do believe that the fires are damped, largely as a result of the Great Recession that began in 2008 and still lingers.


Edited to add:

More on Jacques Parizeau and the sovereignty issue in this article, which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Montreal Gazette via canada.com:

http://www.canada.com/news/Macpherson+Jacques+Parizeau+incoherent+advice+sovereignists/10218705/story.html
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Jacques Parizeau’s incoherent advice to sovereignists

BY DON MACPHERSON, THE GAZETTE

SEPTEMBER 19, 2014

Jacques Parizeau is impatient. But at age 84,  the former Parti Québécois leader and premier can’t afford to be patient.

Other sovereignists say they mustn’t rush another referendum, because they can’t afford another defeat.

But every passing year reduces the chances that Parizeau will see the realization of what has been his life’s work for nearly 50 years: Quebec sovereignty.

Already, the election last April of a Liberal majority government means that it will be at least another four years before the sovereignists return to power.

And Parizeau does not want the main sovereignist party to go into the general election due in October 2018 without having committed itself to holding another referendum if it wins.

Because of former PQ leader Pauline Marois’s refusal to make such a commitment in the last two general elections, Parizeau has been estranged from his former party, supporting  the small, hard-line sovereignist Option nationale party instead.

That didn’t stop him, however, from once again this week, as he has done often in the past, publicly offering the PQ some unsolicited advice.

Intervening in the party’s unofficial leadership campaign, Parizeau criticized the two main rivals of consensus early front-runner Pierre Karl Péladeau.

Bernard Drainville and Jean-François Lisée have raised the possibility that the PQ might promise not to hold a referendum if it wins the next general election. (Péladeau has not yet taken a position.)

In a videoed speech to be shown at a sovereignist meeting on Saturday, Parizeau said for the PQ to promise not to hold a referendum would be “ridiculous.”
He said it would make sovereignists look like “hypocrites” who don’t really want sovereignty.

There was some incoherence in Parizeau’s thinking, however.

On the one hand, he said the PQ must commit itself to holding a referendum if it wins the next election. On the other, he criticized the PQ for having become “disconnected”  from the people.

And if, as Parizeau said, the sovereignty movement faces “a field of ruins” after the PQ suffered its worst defeat in more than 40 years in the general election last April, it’s because the people didn’t want another referendum.

That probably isn’t going to change because of the Scottish independence referendum on Thursday, in which Quebec sovereignists invested such hope.

As I wrote before the vote,  the sovereignists did make some gains in Scotland.

The British government created one precedent by agreeing in advance that 50 per cent plus one would be a clear vote in favour of independence.

That clear-majority precedent, however, is linked in a package deal to the clear-question standard established by the Scottish government, whose referendum question asked simply: Should Scotland be an independent country?

And if 50 per cent plus one would have been a clear majority for the Yes side, then the 45 per cent it actually received is a clear defeat.

Still, it was an honourable defeat, which Quebec sovereignists tried to spin  as a moral victory for them, showing that political independence is still relevant in the globalized 21st century.

It also showed, however, that the Scottish independence movement is much stronger than its Quebec counterpart.

The defeat of the Yes side in Scotland concludes what for Quebecers and other Canadians was a sort of political-science laboratory experiment for our benefit.

We can learn from the referendum itself. It would also have been interesting, however, to see what happened after a Yes vote, what fears raised by the campaign would have proven to be unfounded, and what hopes would have been left unfulfilled.

dmacpherson@montrealgazette.comTwitter: DMacpGaz

© Copyright (c) The Montreal Gazette

 
I believe there will be another Quebec referendum, not soon, but I suspect that a third defeat, and by something more like 55/45 than the 51/49 fiasco we had in 1995, will be needed before the separatists can, honestly, move on to other things, like constitutional changes. This article, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the (British) conservativehome website suggests that Scotland offers us some good lessons:

http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2014/09/matthew-elliott-ten-lessons-from-the-scottish-referendum-for-people-involved-in-the-eu-debate.html
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Ten lessons from the Scottish Referendum for people involved in the EU debate

By Matthew Elliott

September 22, 2014

Matthew Elliott is Chief Executive of Business for Britain.

As we digest the constitutional impact of the last minute promises made to Scotland to keep the Union together, we must not allow the other referendum promised to voters to slip our minds. Studying the Scottish Referendum campaign reveals important lessons for how Britain should conduct its next referendum; the one on our membership of the EU. These lessons should not only inform how EU campaigners approach the referendum, but also what must be done to ensure that voters are presented with a genuine, informed choice when they are finally given a chance to vote on Britain’s relationship with the EU. Here are my initial thoughts on the ten lessons we should take away from the #indyref:

1. By defining independence as Yes, Salmond set the terms of debate in his favour

The question had a big impact on how the campaigns were conducted. “Should Scotland be an independent country?” played into the Yes campaign’s hands. “Should Scotland remain part of the United Kingdom?” would have made for a very different campaign for both sides. Fighting for Yes has inherent advantages compared to fighting for No, and Alex Salmond made the most of owning the positive side of the debate. This would suggest that the In campaign in an EU Referendum would be helped by the question in the EU Referendum Bill being: “Do you think that the United Kingdom should be a member of the European Union?”

2. A decision about who can vote must be made early as it will be controversial

Not only was Salmond allowed to choose the question, but he also defined who had a right to vote in the referendum. He added 16 and 17 year olds to the franchise while excluding those Scots living elsewhere in the UK and further afield. Those 16 and 17 year olds voted by a margin of 71 per cent to 29 per cent in favour of independence, according to Lord Ashcroft’s polling. The decision to disenfranchise Scots living in England was particularly controversial amongst this community and the negotiations over the franchise for an EU referendum will be equally controversial. To dampen any controversy, this decision should be taken early on and made in consultation with representatives of both sides of the EU debate.

3. A positive message is key, but negative campaigning was effective for both sides

In broad brush terms, the Yes campaign was seen as positive and emotionally engaging whilst the No campaign was portrayed as negative and overly analytical. A negative campaign can be seen as offering little hope, and scaremongering can work, but the victory of the No campaign should not be seen simply as a victory of negative over positive campaigning. The No campaign identified that it lacked a positive message as the polls began to narrow, hence David Cameron and Gordon Brown’s emotional pleas in the closing days of the campaign. Nor was the Yes campaign only positive. Those in favour of independence were very effective at exploiting anti-Tory, anti-Thatcher and anti-Westminster feelings north of the border, plus fears over the NHS. Campaigners on both sides in an EU Referendum will want to put a positive message at the heart of their campaigns, but must also recognise the effectiveness of the anti-politics message and the vulnerability of their campaigns to negative campaigning if they fail to answer fundamental questions (such as Yes’s inability to deal with the currency issue).

4. Both options in a referendum should be clearly defined

What happened in Scotland is a prime example of why two clearly defined outcomes need to be settled before an EU Referendum takes place. The last minute concessions by the No side and the confusion of the Yes campaign on key issues starkly shows how a referendum should not be conducted if voters are to be allowed to make an informed decision. The fact that much of the campaign was a battle over what an independent Scotland might look like, rather than the relative merits of the two options on the ballot paper, was in part a result of Salmond’s failure to conclusively deal with many issues such as the future of North Sea oil, the allocation of the UK national debt and prospects of border controls between England and Scotland. But the Better Together campaign also faced serious confusion over what it stood for and many postal ballots were cast before Gordon Brown outlined the new settlement for Scotland and the three party leaders made their “Vow”. The goal posts changed on both sides. It was a messy campaign and ordinary voters were the losers.

For an EU referendum, it would be far more preferable to have two clearly defined options. For such momentous decision, voters deserve concrete alternatives with clear definitions, allowing the debate to be about two precise positions, thereby reducing the scope for mudslinging and the spread of misinformation. The In position should be based on a clearly defined renegotiated deal for Britain with the EU, with the relevant Treaty changes clearly outlined, rather than simply aspirations for future reform. And the Out position should also be concrete. For example, in conjunction with the renegotiation, it could be agreed with other EU member states that were the UK to vote to leave the EU, it would still retain its membership of the European Economic Area.

A clearly-defined, informed debate makes for a better referendum and enhances the validity of the result. The Scottish referendum was historic but the EU referendum will be the biggest decision the whole of the UK will face for a generation. Knowing the policy implications for both an In and Out vote is vital. The electorate shouldn’t be forced to choose between vague promises of EU reform and an uncertain future on the outside. The Government should present the electorate with two clear options.

5. A campaign will struggle to win without newspaper support

The press played a central role in the Scottish referendum. The main analysis and comment of the campaigns was provided by the media. The head to head debates were especially scrutinised with print journalists being the main commentators on the performance of the respective campaigns on the night, particularly through the use of instant post-debate polling. The press reaction to the opinion polls more widely was also highly influential and the panic caused by the first poll to show Yes ahead created a fear that sent all three main party leaders rushing to Scotland to enter last minute campaigning for the Union.

Broadly, newspapers either did not take a stance on the referendum, with many – ranging from the Guardian to the Daily Telegraph – backing Better Together. Only one paper, The Herald, supported Yes. This had strong parallels to the 1975 referendum on the UK’s membership of the Common Market, when only The Spectator, the Morning Star and Tribune supported the No side. While broadcasters are subject to strict impartiality rules during such campaigns, attracting the mainstream support of newspapers is crucial for any future EU referendum campaign. If a campaign does not garner the explicit backing of several national newspapers (and those who finance them) they will face an uphill battle to win a referendum.

6. Social media is an influential source of information that campaigns can harness

Social media played a crucial role in the referendum. Both campaigns heavily utilised Twitter and Facebook. Unavailable at previous comparable referendums (such as the 1975 Common Market referendum and the 1995 referendum on Quebec’s secession from Canada) it was arguably as important as the main stream media in forming people’s views this time around. This was in part driven by a distrust of the more established media by many Yes voters, who relied on information direct from the Yes campaign and supportive blogs that was then rapidly disseminated through social media.
Social media allowed campaigns to get their message out quickly and counteract the announcements of their opponents. Prominent supporters of the No campaign were often accessible to Yes activists via social media which meant that declarations of support for the Union were never made in isolation and without fear of challenge. And the Yes campaign cleverly rebutted Better Together’s fear campaign with humour.

Political parties have vastly improved their use and understanding of the power of social media since the last general election. Campaigners in an EU Referendum who ignore the ability to feed information directly into the newsfeeds of voters at a time when distrust of mainstream media is increasing will find themselves at a significant disadvantage.

7. Single figure led campaigns provide a focal point for debate but can result in internal rifts

Until Gordon Brown’s intervention in the final days of the campaign, the Scottish Referendum was a battle between two figures. In the Yes camp was Alex Salmond, versus Alistair Darling on the No side. These two figures were totems of their respective campaigns, but their party political backgrounds immediately made the referendum a party political fight. It would have been a very different campaign on both sides had they chosen more independent figures. The campaigns in an EU referendum will include many spokespeople, but they might very well be tempted to appoint independent figureheads, free of the shackles of party politics and able to represent the people effectively. The choice of these figureheads will inevitably be controversial and would have a significant impact on the fortunes of the campaigns. However, given the intense scrutiny associated with referendum campaigns, selected an untested independent figurehead can have its downsides too.

It is also worth noting that the Better Together campaign was much more of an Establishment campaign compared to the North East Says No campaign or NOtoAV. This made it easy for the Yes campaign to take the mantle of being on the side of the people. It also meant that Better Together suffered from a slow decision making process and internal spats in a way that Yes did not.

8. Celebrities will garner media coverage, both good and bad

With about six weeks to go, the No side clearly got worried that they were not showing mass appeal and launched a swathe of celebrities into the fray. Many of the celebrities were English and did not appear to increase support for No. They did, however, deliver media coverage for their cause, with Dan Snow in particular gaining the No campaign precious air time. Other endorsements were treated with derision or worse and were quickly forgotten. During the final days of the Better Together campaign, a few selected celebrities were reintroduced but instead focused on addressing their own subjects – historians on history, businessmen on business and so on. In an EU Referendum, celebrities will again no doubt share their views. But these interventions have more impact when the person is speaking about an area they have expertise in, rather than just being a famous face.

9. The business community will play an important role in the debate

The No victory was greatly helped by the interventions of businesses, commenting on their likely decisions following a Yes vote. By bringing out the big beasts of FTSE100 companies to say prices would increase and jobs would be lost, the Better Together campaign successfully reinforced their ‘If you don’t know, vote No’ message. Having the likes of RBS and M&S at the forefront of the campaign certainly influenced voter intentions, particularly those of female voters. For much of the campaign, the pro-independence Business for Scotland was able to neutralise the impact of the various pro-Union business interventions, but the continued uncertainty about what a Yes vote would mean, particularly in relation to the currency issue, meant that in the final weeks these interventions became more powerful and drove the media narrative of the campaign.

Business opinion in an EU referendum is likely to be even more important but much more divided. With EU rules and regulations affecting various types of business in different ways, there is unlikely to be a clear consensus of business opinion. Much will depend on how effectively campaigners present their case, rather than mass adherence to a pre-determined ‘business view’.

10. Single polls have the ability to dramatically change a campaign, but the betting markets provide a better forecast

The polls, which started with an over 20 point lead for Better Together, narrowed significantly in the finals stages of the campaign. Polling in one part of the UK alone made the polls in the independence referendum less reliable than their general election counterparts. However, the effect of individual polls was huge. As the lead tightened – and one poll even edged Yes ahead – the Westminster leaders panicked and started to promise concessions that would not have been considered when No was comfortably in the lead. Throughout the campaign though, the more settled prediction of the betting markets ultimately came to pass. In fact, some bookies paid out early on No and stood to lose a large amount of money had Yes won. The lesson for an EU campaign? Sometimes it is best to trust those willing to put their money where their mouth is.


Change "EU" in the above article to QC and I believe the lessons still stand. I also think that the Scots have made the case for 50%+1 ... that's a blow to Canadian federalists but, I suspect, it is a hard argument to refute unless we can get the Supremes to say that a "Yes" victory requires 50%+1 of those on the voters' list (the eligible voters). We had a 93% turnout n 1995, the Scots had 85% so, maybe, 50%+1 of the eligible voters is an acceptable level, but my guess is that 50%+1 of the votes of those who turn out is, now, the only politically acceptable standard for a liberal democracy where a simple plurality is the normal test.
 
I find it interesting that we would accept a 50 + 1% vote to breakup the nation; yet it takes a minimum of a 2/3 vote to reform the Senate. 

Are our priorities ever screwed up.
 
When the Supreme Court of Canada considered what would be necessary for a province to separate from Canada, in Reference re Secession of Quebec, [1998] 2 S.C.R. 217, the court, in my reading, took pains to state that 50%+1 was not a magic number that could be taken as an automatic number for a "win" for secession in every context.  Here are a few excerpts from the decision:

63    Democracy is commonly understood as being a political system of majority rule. It is essential to be clear what this means. The evolution of our democratic tradition can be traced back to the Magna Carta (1215) and before, through the long struggle for Parliamentary supremacy which culminated in the English Bill of Rights of 1689, the emergence of representative political institutions in the colonial era, the development of responsible government in the 19th century, and eventually, the achievement of Confederation itself in 1867. "[T]he Canadian tradition", the majority of this Court held in Reference re Provincial Electoral Boundaries (Sask.), [1991] 2 S.C.R. 158, at p. 186, is "one of evolutionary democracy moving in uneven steps toward the goal of universal suffrage and more effective representation". Since Confederation, efforts to extend the franchise to those unjustly excluded from participation in our political system - such as women, minorities, and aboriginal peoples - have continued, with some success, to the present day.

64    Democracy is not simply concerned with the process of government. On the contrary, as suggested in Switzman v. Elbling, supra, at p. 306, democracy is fundamentally connected to substantive goals, most importantly, the promotion of self-government. Democracy accommodates cultural and group identities: Reference re Provincial Electoral Boundaries, at p. 188. Put another way, a sovereign people exercises its right to self-government through the democratic process. In considering the scope and purpose of the Charter, the Court in R. v. Oakes, [1986] 1 S.C.R. 103, articulated some of the values inherent in the notion of democracy (at p. 136):

        The Court must be guided by the values and principles essential to a free and democratic society which I believe to embody, to name but a few, respect for the inherent dignity of the human person, commitment to social justice and equality, accommodation of a wide variety of beliefs, respect for cultural and group identity, and faith in social and political institutions which enhance the participation of individuals and groups in society.

65    In institutional terms, democracy means that each of the provincial legislatures and the federal Parliament is elected by popular franchise. These legislatures, we have said, are "at the core of the system of representative government": New Brunswick Broadcasting, supra, at p. 387. In individual terms, the right to vote in elections to the House of Commons and the provincial legislatures, and to be candidates in those elections, is guaranteed to "Every citizen of Canada" by virtue of s. 3 of the Charter. Historically, this Court has interpreted democracy to mean the process of representative and responsible government and the right of citizens to participate in the political process as voters (Reference re Provincial Electoral Boundaries, supra) and as candidates (Harvey v. New Brunswick (Attorney General), [1996] 2 S.C.R. 876). In addition, the effect of s. 4 of the Charter is to oblige the House of Commons and the provincial legislatures to hold regular elections and to permit citizens to elect representatives to their political institutions. The democratic principle is affirmed with particular clarity in that s. 4 is not subject to the notwithstanding power contained in s. 33.

66    It is, of course, true that democracy expresses the sovereign will of the people. Yet this expression, too, must be taken in the context of the other institutional values we have identified as pertinent to this Reference. The relationship between democracy and federalism means, for example, that in Canada there may be different and equally legitimate majorities in different provinces and territories and at the federal level. No one majority is more or less "legitimate" than the others as an expression of democratic opinion, although, of course, the consequences will vary with the subject matter. A federal system of government enables different provinces to pursue policies responsive to the particular concerns and interests of people in that province. At the same time, Canada as a whole is also a democratic community in which citizens construct and achieve goals on a national scale through a federal government acting within the limits of its jurisdiction. The function of federalism is to enable citizens to participate concurrently in different collectivities and to pursue goals at both a provincial and a federal level.

and

87    Although the Constitution does not itself address the use of a referendum procedure, and the results of a referendum have no direct role or legal effect in our constitutional scheme, a referendum undoubtedly may provide a democratic method of ascertaining the views of the electorate on important political questions on a particular occasion. The democratic principle identified above would demand that considerable weight be given to a clear expression by the people of Quebec of their will to secede from Canada, even though a referendum, in itself and without more, has no direct legal effect, and could not in itself bring about unilateral secession. Our political institutions are premised on the democratic principle, and so an expression of the democratic will of the people of a province carries weight, in that it would confer legitimacy on the efforts of the government of Quebec to initiate the Constitution's amendment process in order to secede by constitutional means. In this context, we refer to a "clear" majority as a qualitative evaluation. The referendum result, if it is to be taken as an expression of the democratic will, must be free of ambiguity both in terms of the question asked and in terms of the support it achieves.
 
It is the second quote from the Supremes that has always led me towards 50%+1 of the eligible voters. It's a steeper test, if you get, say, a 92% turnout - doable in Quebec, I think - then you need to get 54.4% of the vote to achieve 50%+1 of the eligible voters. But, of course, that also means that the "No," side wins with only 45.6% ... is that fair?
 
It will take a long time for the sovereignty dream to fizzle out here.
At first I thought it was the uninformed (mistakenly) and the hard core non-Montreal metropolitan Quebecers that wanted this due to various fears (immigration, language etc..); but once I started working where I'm at (engineering company) and saw that among our greatest talents here there are some discreet hard core separatists, I realized that the dream won't die anytime soon. This generation is in their late 30s, so there's a ways to go before they become obsolete.
 
You can be sure that no independence movement in Quebec or Scotland wants to define in real terms what independence is going to be like. Because it's not going to be pretty for the average person.
 
cryco said:
It will take a long time for the sovereignty dream to fizzle out here.
At first I thought it was the uninformed (mistakenly) and the hard core non-Montreal metropolitan Quebecers that wanted this due to various fears (immigration, language etc..); but once I started working where I'm at (engineering company) and saw that among our greatest talents here there are some discreet hard core separatists, I realized that the dream won't die anytime soon. This generation is in their late 30s, so there's a ways to go before they become obsolete.

Many of the "grievances" they carry date back to the 1700's. In Bosnia I was regaled by the Serbs with tales of the Battle of Kosovo Polje that sounded like it happened in the 1990 civil wars; it took place in 1389. Some people will never let history go, and pass their hopes, fears and hates to their children...
 
Altair said:
A little bit from those other guys.

If 50 percent plus 1 one good enough to break up the county it's good enough for leader to stay on I suppose.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/kelly-mcparland-mulcair-sets-the-ndp-leadership-bar-well-below-the-norm

E.R. Campbell said:
It is the second quote from the Supremes that has always led me towards 50%+1 of the eligible voters. It's a steeper test, if you get, say, a 92% turnout - doable in Quebec, I think - then you need to get 54.4% of the vote to achieve 50%+1 of the eligible voters. But, of course, that also means that the "No," side wins with only 45.6% ... is that fair?

The Supremes have said that 50%+1 is not enough ... but what is?

Is it 50%+1 of eligible voters?
Is it 60% or 66.66666 ...? Of what: those who show up to vote, eligible voters, all Quebecers?

50%+1 is good enough for most things in most democracies ... it almost cost us our country back when Jean Chrétien was minding the store, but I'm not convinced it's a bad test.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
The Supremes have said that 50%+1 is not enough ... but what is?

Is it 50%+1 of eligible voters?
Is it 60% or 66.66666 ...? Of what: those who show up to vote, eligible voters, all Quebecers?

50%+1 is good enough for most things in most democracies ... it almost cost us our country back when Jean Chrétien was minding the store, but I'm not convinced it's a bad test.
It's best to negotiate this if it come up again, rather than have a fixed target for separatists to aim for.

Because this partition thing is a one shot deal if the separatists win, there won't be any referendums about rejoining canada, so make it as tough as reasonably possible.
 
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