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Boy, I've only been back to the forum for a couple of days, and I have to admit that I'm impressed: no name calling, balanced, thought out answers. What happened to all the know-it-alls from a couple of months back?? Must have moved on to their true calling: lying on another forum.
Some excellent points from CFL, eyre, kat, and c4th.
I suppose I was hasty to say "boot 'em out" to people who don't want leadership positions, but to be honest, if you make it up a few rungs in the ladder, and don't want to play any more, they force your hand (ie. refuse career course, you pay the price.) So, if a young buck gets the PLQ after 3 years, makes it to jack or Sgt, realizes that he isn't cracked up to be a leader, and they offer the next leadership course and he doesn't want it, what is to become of him??? Kick him, keep him, demote him, what??? I had a POISON crew commander in Recce Sqn in Petawawa before I got posted to Gagetown. I was his driver for 9 months, and he never bothered to learn my last name. He called me: Lamundy, Lagonda, Labamba, etc..... He was 3 ranks higher than he should have been (he was a Sgt). He got posted to Gagetown the same time I did, he as a Sgt, I as a no hook trooper. 13 years later, low and behold, we are both the same rank. So, in reality, he has held up 2 promotions forever: 1 to Sgt, and 1 to MCpl. I have a sneaky feeling he was a product of the DAPS era. I realize he is an extreme example, but an example, nonetheless.
I realize we live in a grey world, not the black and white one that the system would have us believe it is. Is it fair to boot guys out who are happy where they are, at their station in life? No it isn't, but is it fair for people who are unwilling to advance to criticize those that are? No, but it happens, all too frequently.
With the policy of late to allow people to stay in to the age of 60 (I don't know all the in's and out's of this policy, and don't care to, as I will be long gone before that bridge is crossed for me), I can only imagine what this will do to our military. I know the idea is to retain "knowledge", especially in skilled trades, but at what expense??? I personally like the British system (if it still is in effect) where you are done at the age of 40, unless you are an RSM. Is it fair?? No, but when did fair really ever come to play in the military? Is it fair that there is multiple standards for dress and drill in the CF (ie Army vs Navy vs Air force drill, when there really is supposed to be one CF standard)? Is it fair that when the Army deploys somewhere, the soldiers are usually sleeping on the ground, be it the woods, a gymnasium, an armouries, a curling rink, and the boys in blue and the navy winge when they get less than 4 star accomodations? No, it's not. The first time in 16 years that I ever stayed in a hotel (other than R&R's and LTA overseas) was last year when I went to Cape Breton to run in a relay race.
As I stated earlier, the most important time in a soldier's career is spent at the rank of Cpl. Not everyone can advance; it's just not feasible. But, to have people drag their heels when push comes to shove is unacceptable. I would have had many more tour opportunities and cushy job opportunities as a Cpl, but I accepted my fate, and have reached the lofty perch of Sgt. Off the top of my head, I can't think of too many swans, at the rank of Mcpl or Sgt, unless 2 months working with cadets in Whitehorse, or 3 months in Wainwright teaching SQ is a swan, or multiple courses at the Regt, WX, the Armd School are swans. Don't get me wrong, I like to teach, and I want to make a difference. It is hard work sometimes, and you don't make a lot of friends (especially the way I rub some people), but that's what it's about: teaching the young 'uns and hopefully one of them that ends up becoming a piece of the future leadership of the CF, and they aren't like some of the refuse that has streamed through over the last 25 years.
On a slightly different path, but something that ties into something that we've touched on more than a few times: experience. I was a student on the AIT (Advanced Instr Techniques) course when I first got to the School last year. Pretty interesting course, as it goes beyond the "hide behind a podium, and sound like an automaton droning out factoids". Anyway, the instructors were a Crewman MWO, and an Arty WO, so it wasn't as higgy-kissy as I first thought it would be. I suggested to them that they should separate the instructional techniques part of the PLQ, and let any (within reason) Cpl take the course, so that the CF could benefit from that vast pool of knowledge. I remember back a few years, and they made a MCpl, who wasn't qualified Leopard D&M teach a Leo D&M course, under the principle of "he's qualified to teach, so he will teach". I'm sure he muddled through it, but it wasn't fair to him, or to his students. I'm sure there were plenty of Cpl's that, even though they didn't know the lesson plan format, or how to make an overhead transparency (remember, this was before PowerPoint, grandson.......), could have "winged" it, and taught a lot of good info and experience to the students.
I hate to hear when they say that Cpl isn't a leadership rank, because I probably learned a lot more from Cpl's in my day (including when I outranked them......) than I have from other ranks. One of the most abused ranks/qualifications in the military is the CLC/ISCC/JLC/PLQ qualified Cpl. One day you're shovelling shit, the next day you're supervising guys shovelling shit, and then the day after you're back to shovelling shit. You're good enough to do the job, but not good enough to get the rank, even if there are positions open. From my perspective, the Armour Corps has been good with this one (I can honestly say I have never heard of an "acting-lacking" MCpl in our trade), but I know that in other trades it can be much worse (ie the example I gave in another post of a JLC Cpl instructing on a PLQ where his boss (a A/MCpl was a student)). My wife and I get in arguments over the reasoning behind this (she says that CSS trades don't get as many positions as Cbt Arms trades. I tell her she's wrong. Then I don't get any loving for a while :'(, but at least I know I right 8) ). The sad fact is that we are playing catch-up after too many years of ignoring the fact that massive numbers of the leadership pool would be getting out in the '05-06 timeframe. Boy, I would hope somebody gets fired over dropping that ball, but odds are they'll get promoted...... I can remember back a few years, when it seemed we would send 2 or 3 MCpl's from our Regt for a 8 or 12 student 6A (two serials a year). Now we are running serials of 36 to 48 MCpl's twice a year, so that they can crew command a vehicle. I'm sure it's the same for the other Combat Arms. I know money was (and still is) an issue, but even back then, I thought it seemed a little silly to basically only train to need, without looking ahead beyond the next fiscal year.
The idea of mentoring or tutoring the young leadership is a good one, but I rarely, if ever, see that happening. I ended up being the Tp WO on an exercise (as a non 6A MCpl), and I got shit on more than a few times by the SSM for not knowing "my job". Rather than teach me what to do, he shit on me, as though that is an acceptable form of training his subordinates. That went into my mental notebook of what NOT to do when in that position (as if I'll ever be there)....... I see some "professional development" styles of training, whereby MCpl's give drill to their soldiers, or Sgt's have to do essay's and the like to prepare for ILQ, and that's all well and good, but it seems that once you get to a certain level, it is assumed that you can handle pretty much anything, and then WHEN you screw up, it's the end of the world, and you are done. There is a serious fear of failure in our military (how many battles (in training) have we ever lost????) and so consequently, people won't take chances. I can't wait until the CMTC gets in full swing, and we realize that the "awesome and spectacular" combat team attacks that we executed in the past, were nothing but folly. I've had so much sunshine blown up my ass at the debriefs after these things that I've learned to apply SPF30 to my ringpiece before the big group hugs......
Anyway, to get back on track, I think that a good balance of youth and experience can save our bacon, but I think that a major mistake would to pass over the soldier's whose best before date has expired (in the eyes of the powers that be, anyways). I've overhead a lot of younger soldiers grumbling that they will never get anywhere in the army, based on the past 10-15 years of slow career progression. I try to convince them that they need to realize these things come and go in cycles, and that their day very well could come, and don't be contaminated by the negativity that a lot of the disgruntled Cpl's (and MCpl's and Sgts, and ......) spout off about. I'm not exactly an optimist by nature (I prefer to think of myself as a realist, not a pessimist) but I can see that things will probably get better, especially when we have an Army CDS, over the short term, and hopefully, once some of the dinosaurs that are RTC finally realize that the Cold War is over, and that them new fangled computer thingies aren't going to go away any time soon, they can retire, and tell war stories at the A&W down in Oromocto (one of the circles of hell, in my opinion....), and let the rest of us move on, and try to right the wrongs of the last 25 years or so.
Anyway, this has been a very invigorating topic, and since nobody has come in to rain on our parade so far, maybe we can present some solutions that may actually work. Not that anybody would implement them, but at least we're thinking of solutions, rather than just bitching about it.
Have a good one,
Al
Some excellent points from CFL, eyre, kat, and c4th.
I suppose I was hasty to say "boot 'em out" to people who don't want leadership positions, but to be honest, if you make it up a few rungs in the ladder, and don't want to play any more, they force your hand (ie. refuse career course, you pay the price.) So, if a young buck gets the PLQ after 3 years, makes it to jack or Sgt, realizes that he isn't cracked up to be a leader, and they offer the next leadership course and he doesn't want it, what is to become of him??? Kick him, keep him, demote him, what??? I had a POISON crew commander in Recce Sqn in Petawawa before I got posted to Gagetown. I was his driver for 9 months, and he never bothered to learn my last name. He called me: Lamundy, Lagonda, Labamba, etc..... He was 3 ranks higher than he should have been (he was a Sgt). He got posted to Gagetown the same time I did, he as a Sgt, I as a no hook trooper. 13 years later, low and behold, we are both the same rank. So, in reality, he has held up 2 promotions forever: 1 to Sgt, and 1 to MCpl. I have a sneaky feeling he was a product of the DAPS era. I realize he is an extreme example, but an example, nonetheless.
I realize we live in a grey world, not the black and white one that the system would have us believe it is. Is it fair to boot guys out who are happy where they are, at their station in life? No it isn't, but is it fair for people who are unwilling to advance to criticize those that are? No, but it happens, all too frequently.
With the policy of late to allow people to stay in to the age of 60 (I don't know all the in's and out's of this policy, and don't care to, as I will be long gone before that bridge is crossed for me), I can only imagine what this will do to our military. I know the idea is to retain "knowledge", especially in skilled trades, but at what expense??? I personally like the British system (if it still is in effect) where you are done at the age of 40, unless you are an RSM. Is it fair?? No, but when did fair really ever come to play in the military? Is it fair that there is multiple standards for dress and drill in the CF (ie Army vs Navy vs Air force drill, when there really is supposed to be one CF standard)? Is it fair that when the Army deploys somewhere, the soldiers are usually sleeping on the ground, be it the woods, a gymnasium, an armouries, a curling rink, and the boys in blue and the navy winge when they get less than 4 star accomodations? No, it's not. The first time in 16 years that I ever stayed in a hotel (other than R&R's and LTA overseas) was last year when I went to Cape Breton to run in a relay race.
As I stated earlier, the most important time in a soldier's career is spent at the rank of Cpl. Not everyone can advance; it's just not feasible. But, to have people drag their heels when push comes to shove is unacceptable. I would have had many more tour opportunities and cushy job opportunities as a Cpl, but I accepted my fate, and have reached the lofty perch of Sgt. Off the top of my head, I can't think of too many swans, at the rank of Mcpl or Sgt, unless 2 months working with cadets in Whitehorse, or 3 months in Wainwright teaching SQ is a swan, or multiple courses at the Regt, WX, the Armd School are swans. Don't get me wrong, I like to teach, and I want to make a difference. It is hard work sometimes, and you don't make a lot of friends (especially the way I rub some people), but that's what it's about: teaching the young 'uns and hopefully one of them that ends up becoming a piece of the future leadership of the CF, and they aren't like some of the refuse that has streamed through over the last 25 years.
On a slightly different path, but something that ties into something that we've touched on more than a few times: experience. I was a student on the AIT (Advanced Instr Techniques) course when I first got to the School last year. Pretty interesting course, as it goes beyond the "hide behind a podium, and sound like an automaton droning out factoids". Anyway, the instructors were a Crewman MWO, and an Arty WO, so it wasn't as higgy-kissy as I first thought it would be. I suggested to them that they should separate the instructional techniques part of the PLQ, and let any (within reason) Cpl take the course, so that the CF could benefit from that vast pool of knowledge. I remember back a few years, and they made a MCpl, who wasn't qualified Leopard D&M teach a Leo D&M course, under the principle of "he's qualified to teach, so he will teach". I'm sure he muddled through it, but it wasn't fair to him, or to his students. I'm sure there were plenty of Cpl's that, even though they didn't know the lesson plan format, or how to make an overhead transparency (remember, this was before PowerPoint, grandson.......), could have "winged" it, and taught a lot of good info and experience to the students.
I hate to hear when they say that Cpl isn't a leadership rank, because I probably learned a lot more from Cpl's in my day (including when I outranked them......) than I have from other ranks. One of the most abused ranks/qualifications in the military is the CLC/ISCC/JLC/PLQ qualified Cpl. One day you're shovelling shit, the next day you're supervising guys shovelling shit, and then the day after you're back to shovelling shit. You're good enough to do the job, but not good enough to get the rank, even if there are positions open. From my perspective, the Armour Corps has been good with this one (I can honestly say I have never heard of an "acting-lacking" MCpl in our trade), but I know that in other trades it can be much worse (ie the example I gave in another post of a JLC Cpl instructing on a PLQ where his boss (a A/MCpl was a student)). My wife and I get in arguments over the reasoning behind this (she says that CSS trades don't get as many positions as Cbt Arms trades. I tell her she's wrong. Then I don't get any loving for a while :'(, but at least I know I right 8) ). The sad fact is that we are playing catch-up after too many years of ignoring the fact that massive numbers of the leadership pool would be getting out in the '05-06 timeframe. Boy, I would hope somebody gets fired over dropping that ball, but odds are they'll get promoted...... I can remember back a few years, when it seemed we would send 2 or 3 MCpl's from our Regt for a 8 or 12 student 6A (two serials a year). Now we are running serials of 36 to 48 MCpl's twice a year, so that they can crew command a vehicle. I'm sure it's the same for the other Combat Arms. I know money was (and still is) an issue, but even back then, I thought it seemed a little silly to basically only train to need, without looking ahead beyond the next fiscal year.
The idea of mentoring or tutoring the young leadership is a good one, but I rarely, if ever, see that happening. I ended up being the Tp WO on an exercise (as a non 6A MCpl), and I got shit on more than a few times by the SSM for not knowing "my job". Rather than teach me what to do, he shit on me, as though that is an acceptable form of training his subordinates. That went into my mental notebook of what NOT to do when in that position (as if I'll ever be there)....... I see some "professional development" styles of training, whereby MCpl's give drill to their soldiers, or Sgt's have to do essay's and the like to prepare for ILQ, and that's all well and good, but it seems that once you get to a certain level, it is assumed that you can handle pretty much anything, and then WHEN you screw up, it's the end of the world, and you are done. There is a serious fear of failure in our military (how many battles (in training) have we ever lost????) and so consequently, people won't take chances. I can't wait until the CMTC gets in full swing, and we realize that the "awesome and spectacular" combat team attacks that we executed in the past, were nothing but folly. I've had so much sunshine blown up my ass at the debriefs after these things that I've learned to apply SPF30 to my ringpiece before the big group hugs......
Anyway, to get back on track, I think that a good balance of youth and experience can save our bacon, but I think that a major mistake would to pass over the soldier's whose best before date has expired (in the eyes of the powers that be, anyways). I've overhead a lot of younger soldiers grumbling that they will never get anywhere in the army, based on the past 10-15 years of slow career progression. I try to convince them that they need to realize these things come and go in cycles, and that their day very well could come, and don't be contaminated by the negativity that a lot of the disgruntled Cpl's (and MCpl's and Sgts, and ......) spout off about. I'm not exactly an optimist by nature (I prefer to think of myself as a realist, not a pessimist) but I can see that things will probably get better, especially when we have an Army CDS, over the short term, and hopefully, once some of the dinosaurs that are RTC finally realize that the Cold War is over, and that them new fangled computer thingies aren't going to go away any time soon, they can retire, and tell war stories at the A&W down in Oromocto (one of the circles of hell, in my opinion....), and let the rest of us move on, and try to right the wrongs of the last 25 years or so.
Anyway, this has been a very invigorating topic, and since nobody has come in to rain on our parade so far, maybe we can present some solutions that may actually work. Not that anybody would implement them, but at least we're thinking of solutions, rather than just bitching about it.
Have a good one,
Al
