Platoon warrant disregarding chits

[geo]

Douke,
as indicated, if the individual was provided by QM with alternate footwear & thus, no longer has Mk IIIs in his posession, then the subject if "moot".

 

[y2kroachman]

Ya the clothing stores never took back my mkIIIs or punched a whole in them the guy just said take em home but they are not on my docs anymore. I think ill keep wearing my new boots and if the issue keeps geting pushed ill just wear my mkIIIs because I dont want to be in the PL WO bad books.  Thanks for all the help guys I really appreciate it. 

 

[geo]

Ya the clothing stores never took back my mkIIIs or punched a whole in them the guy just said take em home but they are not on my docs anymore. I think ill keep wearing my new boots and if the issue keeps geting pushed ill just wear my mkIIIs because I dont want to be in the PL WO bad books.  Thanks for all the help guys I really appreciate it. 

jovi,
You're not getting the message here
QM issued you new boots and took the Mk IIIs off your charge
The new boots are the only boots you are supposed to wear & are authorized to wear.
So long as you are wearing black boots that are issued by the CF supply system & approved for you to wear by the CF medical system, then there should not be a problem.

While I am not advocating your facing down your Pl WO on your own, you should be getting your section commander in on the act.
1.  Your feet had problems with Mk IIIs
2.  The MO confirmed you had problems with your feet & prescribed different boots for you to wear... PERIOD
3.  The CF supply system validated your MOs chit & ordered special CF approved boots for you to wear.
4.  The CF supply system issued you new boots.... PERIOD

If the Mk IIIs are the root cause of futur incapacitating injuries to your feet & your back, will the Pl WO assume full responsibility for your injuruies? I think not.... 

If reason fails to sway the Pl WO, ask to have a conversation with your Pl Commander - thru your section commander.

 

[tomahawk6]

Keep wearing your special boots.Officially you no longer have the mk3 boots to wear. I dont know about CF policy but if you were a US soldier and you were issued special boots but kept wearing the old issue boots and you injured yourself as a result, you could be brought up on charges. Similarly if a supervisor made you violate the orders of a doctor he could be charged.

 

[COBRA-6]

Vern, got a question for you...

I have a med chit and had alt boots issued through clothing stores last year, recently I went in because I had worn out one pair and needed new ones, and they mentioned I needed to get a new med chit every two years, is that standard policy accross the board? Not a problem for me as my chit was less than two years old, but I would have thought once you were issued alt boots you would be good to go from then on...

Also, I don't remember them taking the Mk III's or the WWB's off my docs, should they have told me if they did this?

Cheers!

 

[Shamrock]

...
1.  Your feet had problems with Mk IIIs
2.  The MO confirmed you had problems with your feet & prescribed different boots for you to wear... PERIOD
3.  The CF supply system validated your MOs chit & ordered special CF approved boots for you to wear.
4.  The CF supply system issued you new boots.... PERIOD
...

Not all chits for wearing non-issue boots stem from problems directly related to the Mk III's.  Mine came about from either my orthotic or my foot fitting in my boot (but not both).  I can wear the Mk III's comfortably for a short while -- it's the same as wearing any footwear without my orthotic.

 

[armyvern]

Not all chits for wearing non-issue boots stem from problems directly related to the Mk III's.  Mine came about from either my orthotic or my foot fitting in my boot (but not both).  I can wear the Mk III's comfortably for a short while -- it's the same as wearing any footwear without my orthotic.

True,

BUT, if we bought you boots to accomodate your orthotics ... YOUR MkIIIs would also have been bunched and written off your charge.

Short & Simple:

If the Sup system has purchased you boots to wear ... THEY are the authorized boots now on your charge; if you still have MkIIIs still on your charge ... then a Sup Tech at Clothing Stores did NOT do their jobs properly. You CAN NOT be made to wear that which you NO LONGER are entitled to be issued. You are entitled to 2 pairs of cbt boots ... either MkIIIs OR LPO'd boots ... not BOTH.

If you can still wear both -- why would the Crown (taxpayer) have to buy you civ pattern boots in the first place for??

 

[armyvern]

Ya the clothing stores never took back my mkIIIs or punched a whole in them the guy just said take em home but they are not on my docs anymore. I think ill keep wearing my new boots and if the issue keeps geting pushed ill just wear my mkIIIs because I dont want to be in the PL WO bad books.  Thanks for all the help guys I really appreciate it. 

And this is exactly why soldier's injuries become permanent.

Tell your PL WO ... to put that order in writing. If you want an AO for the charge ... give them my name.

 

[armyvern]

Vern, got a question for you...

I have a med chit and had alt boots issued through clothing stores last year, recently I went in because I had worn out one pair and needed new ones, and they mentioned I needed to get a new med chit every two years, is that standard policy accross the board? Not a problem for me as my chit was less than two years old, but I would have thought once you were issued alt boots you would be good to go from then on...

Also, I don't remember them taking the Mk III's or the WWB's off my docs, should they have told me if they did this?

Cheers!

It is every two years ... because sometimes (whatever the medical problem is that caused the chit ...) is correctable and will be corrected during that 2 year period.

But hey, why don't you just wear your MkIIIs and make it permanent??  > (Really ... do NOT take the advice I have given in my last line!!)

 

[Armymedic]

It is every two years ... because sometimes (whatever the medical problem is that caused the chit ...) is correctable and will be corrected during that 2 year period.

Actually, gait is not correctable once you have concluded your growth cycle (after 18 yrs for women, 21 for men).  And any condition that is non correctable in 12-18 months should be subjected to a PCAT change.

**************

As you can see, this is not a medical issue, but one of regulations, interpretation and supply system directives.

 

[Haggis]

Tell your PL WO ... to put that order in writing.

jovi:   If the Pl WO orders that you keep wearing Mk III's and will not put his orders on paper, ask to see your CSM, with a copy of your chit and wear your new boots.  Ask the CSM to review with the Pl WO, on your behalf, CANLANDGEN 009/07 specifically para 1, which states:

"1. THE PURPOSE OF THIS CANLANDGEN IS TO REMIND UNIT COMMANDING OFFICERS THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO OVERRIDE OR DISREGRARD WHAT MEDICAL STAFF RECOMMENDS AS MEDICAL CARE FOR MEMBERS UNDER THEIR COMMAND. THIS INCLUDES MEDICAL EMPLOYMENT LIMITATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN ASSIGNED."

This is drawn from CANFORGEN 128/03 which states, in part:

"3. COMMANDING OFFICERS ARE REMINDED THAT THEY HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO OVERRULE OR DISREGARD WHAT MEDICAL STAFF RECOMMEND AS MEDICAL CARE FOR CF MEMBERS UNDER THEIR COMMAND. THIS INCLUDES BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO MEDICAL AND SURGICAL TREATMENT, DIAGNOSTIC AND INVESTIGATIONAL PROCEDURES, HOSPITALIZATION, PREVENTIVE MEDICINE PROCEDURES, MEDICAL EMPLOYMENT LIMITATIONS AND SICK LEAVE."  (emphasis is mine)

As a CSM myself, I'd readily accept that the issue of new LPO boots to allow a member to train and deploy is considered "medical treatment" since your chit was written by an MO.

See, Vern, we're not all Dinosaurs!

 

[medaid]

See, Vern, we're not all Dinosaurs!

True But you're one of those Un-dinos, and you're quite a rare breed indeed! Rare breed!

EDIT: Geo is also part of the Un-dino family. That makes 2 so far 

 

[geo]

Piffle..... I saw the light at the end of the tunnel
(though I mighta been the old 4:05 coming down the track)
we're no exception

 

[Haggis]

True But you're one of those Un-dinos, and you're quite a rare breed indeed! Rare breed!

EDIT: Geo is also part of the Un-dino family. That makes 2 so far 

OK... maybe I am a dinosaur. I've been called one in the past (along with some other names that usually don't pass the Army.ca content filter)

But I look at myself as a more cereberally evolved Velociraptor; relatively smart, small (by dino standards), fast and deadly.  I'm not a T-Rex.

 

[Franko]

OK... maybe I am a dinosaur. I've been called one in the past (along with some other names that usually don't pass the Army.ca content filter)

But I look at myself as a more cereberally evolved Velociraptor; relatively smart, small (by dino standards), fast and deadly.  I'm not a T-Rex.

ummm...some have seen you in Sarajevo a few years ago, you may want to re think that one.            ;D

Regards

 

[Haggis]

ummm...some have seen you in Sarajevo a few years ago, you may want to re think that one.              ;D

So may you.  I'm some 40 odd pounds lighter now, and far better looking.  Times change.  People change, too.

 

[medaid]

So may you.  I'm some 40 odd pounds lighter now, and far better looking.  Times change.  People change, too.

How'd you lose your 40lbs? I wouldn't mind doing that at all!

 

[1feral1]

if your PL WO is overiding med chits, he is simply failing his duty of care.

Not happy?

Take it further up the chain of command. Thats your right. Exercise it.

Here in Australia, we don't have PL WOs, we have PL SGTs, and I am one (RAAC - we use TP and SQN).

A top priority for any one in this position is the welfare of his men. Any medical chits come from them thru to me, and are strictly adhered to without question and duely noted. I inform the TP Leader, who informs the SSM, who informs the OC.

Why anyone would do otherwise is beyond me.

My two bob,

Wes

 

[Haggis]

How'd you lose your 40lbs? I wouldn't mind doing that at all!

So far, it's 45 lbs actually.... in eight months.  (I doubt RBD would recognize me from a distance any more)

THREAD HIJACK ALERT!

Three words:  Army Fitness Manual.  Good programs, good info.  Stick to it, eat sensibly and you'll do just fine.

I'll start off by giving you a bit of background before I go into the details.

Back in November, my wife and I made a bet to see who could drop the most pounds by Christmas.  We did this without any real "plan" in place, just trying to eat healthy and exercise more.  I concentrated on exercising without changing the way I ate and she concentrated on watching her caloric intake without doing any substantial exercise.  I lost about six pounds, she lost eight.  However, over Christmas, we put on about half of that. Clearly our "plan" wasn't working.  It lacked discipline.

In January 2007, we decided it was time for some lifestyle changes.  My DEU was fairly tight and I was tired a lot, getting headaches etc. 9er Domestic was determined to make a big difference in her physique and energy levels.  There's a variety of reasons for this but our primary motivation was that 2007 is our 20th anniversary and we had never taken a honeymoon.  It was time.  We decided to shape up for our anniversary and set the date for May 17th weekend. That was our first step: we now had a goal.

Since I already have access to a CF gym, we shopped around for a membership for her.  All the gyms were offering "New Years Resolution Fitness and Weight Loss Specials" and we found one she liked.  So, she signed up. 

In a nutshell her program consisted of guided exercise and weight loss education.  No pills, no special food to buy, no supplements.  Just education and information on nutrition and healthy eating habits.  She also learned how to exercise properly and efficiently with a personal trainer.  Now you're thinking "What has this got to do with the Shrinking Haggis?".  Well, I piggybacked on her program.  I did what she did, but without the trainer support.

OK, now on to the program:

Getting Started: To get started I did the Army Fitness Manual 12 week program, weeks 1 to 9 (the winter in Ottawa was too messy outside to ruck march in).  That gave me a quick, easy program to follow and specific goals to measure my progress against.  The AFM program is super!

Moving On: Once I'd completed the AFM program, now I do a split routine (upper body weights and lower body weights), five days a week.  Strength training is an integral part of the program as lean body mass helps to raise your metabolic rate, thus burning more fat.  Plus, chicks dig big shoulders.  For strength training I divide my month into weeks.  In weeks 1 and 3, I do three days of upper body weight training and two days of lower body training.  In weeks 2 and 4 I reverse this.  I do it as a circuit to keep my HR up and cut the time down. 

Each day consists of 6-7 exercises which should be done in three sets of 10-15 reps. That's 18-21 sets per day.  What I do is alternate muscle groups (Push/Pull) and do them back to back.  For example, I'll do a set of Push Ups and a set of Lat Pull Downs, back to back, three times.  Then I'll move on to Dumbbell Press and Dumbbell Curls the same way.  You can do the entire strength workout in 30 minutes.

Cardio: Every day includes 40-50 minutes of Target Heart Rate cardio; running, or elliptical trainer.  I do at least ruck march a week, 10 km or longer.

Warm Up and Cool Down: I use my cardio workout as a warm up, going semi-easy for about 5 minutes then ratcheting up the pain.  Similarly I always do cardio before weights and close out with a 5-7 top to bottom stretching routine.  If you skip this, you'll be sore and risk injury.

Rest: Don't train more than 5 days a week.  You'll burn out the muscles which need time to recover and grow.  You also risk overuse injuries.

Diet: Surprisingly this was the biggest factor in our success.  We learned about the Canada Food Guide, portion control and, above all, discipline.  Here's a few of our biggest changes:

- Switch to a smaller, 9 inch dinner plate;
- Divide your plate into quarters:  1/2 should be vegetables, 1/4 should be starch/carbs, 1/4 should be meats/proteins.
- Read and follow the Canada Food Guide
- Snack healthy:  veggies, fruits etc.  V8 is your friend.  Snack only enough to fool your body into thinking it had a meal. (3-4 pieces of celery, an apple etc.)
- Watch your alcohol intake.  I cut back to about 2-4 beer a week on average and maybe a glass of wine with 9er Domestic on weekends (liquid panty remover ;D).  Some weeks I have none.
- Drink water.  Lots of water, at least 64 ounces a day (8 X 8 ounce glass)
- Limit sweets to 2 X a week and no bigger than ONE donut or two cookies.  Use these to reward yourself after a particularly hard workout.
- Cook smaller quantities.  Don't leave enough for leftovers.
- Clear the table as soon as you're done eating your first (and only) serving.  Remove temptation to refill your plate.
- Drive throughs are EVIL!!  If you must drive through, pick a salad, chicken or fish.
- Set a cut-off time (i.e. 8:00 PM) after which you don't eat/snack anymore that day.  Water, decaffeinated tea or coffee is OK.  No soft drinks!

If you follow the diet rules 90% of the time (hey, we're only human) than you'll drop pounds pretty quick.  9er Domestic, who is 5'1", has lost 25 lbs and kept it off for nine months.  I've dropped 45 lbs of weight since November 2006.  In the last month I've put on about 4 lbs of lean muscle mass for a net loss of 41 lbs.  How do I know?  i'm getting heavier but my clothes are looser.  I went from a 42" waist to a 34" waist; an 18 1/2" shirt to a 17" shirt..... and I'm keeping it off!

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

THREAD HIJACK ALERT ENDS!

 

[armyvern]

Actually, gait is not correctable once you have concluded your growth cycle (after 18 yrs for women, 21 for men).  And any condition that is non correctable in 12-18 months should be subjected to a PCAT change.

**************

As you can see, this is not a medical issue, but one of regulations, interpretation and supply system directives.

Uhmm, actually no. Some of those medical chits are written for mesh-sided footwear due to rash etc -- which IS a correctable situation, is the reason these soldiers have follow-ups appts with their MOs etc, and the reason new chits are required. I find that most just get their new chit written at those follow-up MO appts -- where, I would assume, the MOs are also doing up that recommendation for PCat should there be no change or improvement in the situation (and, I'm pretty sure that new direction out on this from the medical world this past spring -- made PCat processing a necessary requirement for A Class Res F pers who were required to wear orthotics as well).

The Sup procedures outlining ortho/medical chit processing are based upon CFMOs (or whatever they are called these days) ... in consult with your medical staff in NDHQ ... It's really quite simple. If the sitauation IS corrected within the time period laid out, the MO won't be issuing a new chit -- ergo no more LPOd footwear for buddy -- his entitlement to them ceases; buddy who's first chit read "requires boots to accomodate orthotics" now comes back after his follow-up MO appt with a chit reading "requires vibram soled boots which accomodate orthotics". It does change from chit to chit -- frequently -- and that's a medical thing -- not a Supply thing.

Here's a reason based on Supply Procedures that you will need a new chit:

When you are posted from one base to another base -- you will need a new medical chit from the new Unit's medical facility. This is because the funding to pay for boots etc comes from the individual Base's budget -- and thus the chit must be issued by the new Base Medical Facility within the parameters that it sets out to determine whether a chit is required or not. Authority to spend the Comds budget must come from personnel authorized to do so on his behalf and within the parameters set out for that spending. (IE -- according to the med directives each soldier who is issued a chit for "vibram soled" footwear should have been put through some gait testing etc at physio pror to getting it. Some places just hand them out like candy -- no testing performed -- some Comds KNOW that.) Me personally, I don't care as long as he's got that new chit from the medical side of the house which is SUPPLY's AUTHORITY to go purchase those boots for the member using the Comd's money ON BEHALF OF the medical system (we could, I suppose, send this function where it could be -- to your Base Pharmacy because we are only filling a prescription on your behalf in footwears case. The BPharm fills all other physio eqpt prescriptions itself). Physio's signed the new chit?? The MOs written a new chit?? It's their signature on the bottom of it saying that there was a valid medical requirement for that chit IAW applicable medical directives. It is not a Supply issue.