Preserving Army Fleets

[Colin Parkinson]

As I understand it two main reasons 1) Larger USA presence in Poland 2) Poland getting Abrams.
Poland being closer to Russia as well - it is a shorter road move if Push comes to Shove...

Down side is it puts your Depots in range of more Russian missiles, with a shorter response time.

 

[KevinB]

Down side is it puts your Depots in range of more Russian missiles, with a shorter response time.

I suspect we’d know a lot before the missile crews if they were launching…

 

[DBNSG]

So while driving to Cape Breton and back for work in the last two days I passed a total of five Civilian flatbeds moving in total 8 obviously retired M113's and two Cougars. All heading towards Halifax on the 102. The M113's were all missing tracks and roadwheels but were remarkably still green painted as if travelling from a sheltered space . The Cougars still had all eight wheels . Would these items be on their way to Ukraine as spare parts?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Another post apocalyptic movie being shot in Halifax, perhaps?

 

[daftandbarmy]

So while driving to Cape Breton and back for work in the last two days I passed a total of five Civilian flatbeds moving in total 8 obviously retired M113's and two Cougars. All heading towards Halifax on the 102. The M113's were all missing tracks and roadwheels but were remarkably still green painted as if travelling from a sheltered space . The Cougars still had all eight wheels . Would these items be on their way to Ukraine as spare parts?

The Conservatives just crushed the Liberals in an election... maybe it was a Plan B of some kind

‘Falls on my shoulders’: Churchill apologetic after Liberals crushed in N.S. election - Halifax | Globalnews.ca

Zach Churchill's Liberals were dealt a devastating loss in the Nova Scotia election — dropping to third-party status. Churchill lost his own seat in Yarmouth by 14 votes.

globalnews.ca

 

[DBNSG]

The Conservatives just crushed the Liberals in an election... maybe it was a Plan B of some kind

‘Falls on my shoulders’: Churchill apologetic after Liberals crushed in N.S. election - Halifax | Globalnews.ca

Zach Churchill's Liberals were dealt a devastating loss in the Nova Scotia election — dropping to third-party status. Churchill lost his own seat in Yarmouth by 14 votes.

globalnews.ca

Well all the Provincial Liberals needed was a two man dinghy. The M113's could be boat Anchors?

 

[lenaitch]

New equipment for the reserves?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

New equipment for the reserves?

You army guys need to stop that. Really.

It is new equipment for the ARMY. Some of it operated by full-timers. Some of it operated by part-timers.

 

[DBNSG]

So while driving to Cape Breton and back for work in the last two days I passed a total of five Civilian flatbeds moving in total 8 obviously retired M113's and two Cougars. All heading towards Halifax on the 102. The M113's were all missing tracks and roadwheels but were remarkably still green painted as if travelling from a sheltered space . The Cougars still had all eight wheels . Would these items be on their way to Ukraine as spare parts?

So over on another Site I look into (Shipfax) the gear I saw on the 102 the other day is sitting on Pier 9 in Halifax. Car Carriers usually drop off or pickup outsized or unusual cargo from that pier.

 

[lenaitch]

You army guys need to stop that. Really.

It is new equipment for the ARMY. Some of it operated by full-timers. Some of it operated by part-timers.

So to disappoint; I'm an outsider. It was just a riff on the Reserves getting outdated hand-me-downs.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

So to disappoint; I'm an outsider. It was just a riff on the Reserves getting outdated hand-me-downs.

Sure, sorry. That second sentence is exactly the attitude that needs to stop. There is one Army. Full-Stop.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Sure, sorry. That second sentence is exactly the attitude that needs to stop. There is one Army. Full-Stop.

To be said in your 'Wizard Voice', ending with the following word of command

 

[Kirkhill]

Sure, sorry. That second sentence is exactly the attitude that needs to stop. There is one Army. Full-Stop.

I was a Militia Rat. I left prior to the Total Force army (D9 and the Militia were not compatible).

I have watched the Army and the Reserves (Militia) struggle with trying to create one army out of two very distinct cultures for the best part of 40 years.

At bottom, in my opinion, there are two fundamental issues.

1: 34 days per year versus a 365 day per year commitment.
2: Voluntary association versus contractual association.

The government can make demands of its contracted forces that it can't of its voluntary forces.
There is no way in this world or the next that it is possible to replicate the full array of skills found in a 365 day a year force in 34 days.
You can't get there from here.

Something has to give.

In my view that means lowering the expectations of the Reserves and accepting that while the Reserves can do some jobs with supervision other jobs will require a massive training delta. And, perhaps, different security clearance standards. Physical fitness standards should be common.

 

[dapaterson]

Sure, sorry. That second sentence is exactly the attitude that needs to stop. There is one Army. Full-Stop.

There are four Armies - of the West, of the East, of Ontario and of Quebec.

 

[FJAG]

The government can make demands of its contracted forces that it can't of its voluntary forces.

That's fundamentally and legally incorrect. The government can make those demands, if and when it chooses. The problem is that it doesn't fully understand how to do so nor when the right time is to use that power. It has defaulted into not using it.

There are four Armies - of the West Patricias, of Ontario The Royals, of Quebec the Van Doos, and of the East undominated.

FTFY

 

[Kirkhill]

That's fundamentally and legally incorrect. The government can make those demands, if and when it chooses. The problem is that it doesn't fully understand how to do so nor when the right time is to use that power. It has defaulted into not using it.


FTFY

@FJAG

That is fundamentally wrong. The government can give all the orders it likes. It can chuck as many citizens in jail as it likes for not following those orders. But its orders are only as good as the number of people willing to follow them.

Coercion only gets you so far. Canada does not have a positive track record with conscription.

The consent of the governed.

 

[dapaterson]

@FJAG

That is fundamentally wrong. The government can give all the orders it likes. It can chuck as many citizens in jail as it likes for not following those orders. But its orders are only as good as the number of people willing to follow them.

Coercion only gets you so far. Canada does not have a positive track record with conscription.

The consent of the governed.

An individual chooses to join the CAF. Whatever happens next may be many things, but it is not conscription.

 

[KevinB]

I was a Militia Rat. I left prior to the Total Force army (D9 and the Militia were not compatible).

I have watched the Army and the Reserves (Militia) struggle with trying to create one army out of two very distinct cultures for the best part of 40 years.

Well maybe try the culture command should work on that.

At bottom, in my opinion, there are two fundamental issues.

1: 34 days per year versus a 365 day per year commitment.
2: Voluntary association versus contractual association.

Honestly non issues.
Yes some aspects of their trades the PRes won’t be able to do, but many jobs the PRes should have can be done.
@FJAG already addressed the misconception about voluntary association -but any volunteer Army doesn’t solely work on ‘when you want’ attendance.

If the ARNG can field capable Armored Divisions any argument that the PRes can’t at least field Companies/Squadrons/Batteries is pretty feeble (if given equipment).

The government can make demands of its contracted forces that it can't of its voluntary forces.
There is no way in this world or the next that it is possible to replicate the full array of skills found in a 365 day a year force in 34 days.

Technically I believe it’s 39 days
But if given some additional time before deployment they should be able to be combat capable inside 90 days.

You can't get there from here.


In my view that means lowering the expectations of the Reserves and accepting that while the Reserves can do some jobs with supervision other jobs will require a massive training delta. And, perhaps, different security clearance standards. Physical fitness standards should be common.

Then just abolish the PRes then, as that offers nothing for Canada’s security in a realistic sense.

 

[Kirkhill]

An individual chooses to join the CAF. Whatever happens next may be many things, but it is not conscription.

And an individual can choose to leave the CAF. Ignoring those wishes and imposing the government's will is vanishingly dissimilar to conscription. The individual is still being coerced.

The situation is more obvious in the Reserves because the terms of engagement are that much looser.

If the government chooses to exercise its contractual rights then it risks losing a lot of willing volunteers.

Now it is a separate and valid debate as to whether those volunteers are benefitting the government as much as it wants or needs.

 

[FJAG]

That is fundamentally wrong. The government can give all the orders it likes. It can chuck as many citizens in jail as it likes for not following those orders. But its orders are only as good as the number of people willing to follow them.

Coercion only gets you so far. Canada does not have a positive track record with conscription.

The consent of the governed.

And an individual can choose to leave the CAF. Ignoring those wishes and imposing the government's will is vanishingly dissimilar to conscription. The individual is still being coerced.

That's pure bullshit. Democratic society is governed by laws. Once a citizen joins the CAF he is subject to the provisions of the NDA. It is not conscription in that the individual has voluntarily placed himself subject to those laws until he is released.

Obligation to serve

• 23 (1) The enrolment of a person binds the person to serve in the Canadian Forces until the person is, in accordance with regulations, lawfully released.

The situation is more obvious in the Reserves because the terms of engagement are that much looser.

I haven't seen an enrollment form for quite some time, but AFAIK, the fundamental provisions respecting the terms of service which govern the length of time that a regular or a reservist is engaged for are substantially the same.

Voluntary release is governed by regulations and policies. Note this NDA provision.

Entitlement

• 30 (1) Except during an emergency, an officer or non-commissioned member who is not on active service is entitled to be released at the expiration of the term of service for which the officer or non-commissioned member is enrolled or re-engaged.

All RegF members are currently on Active Service due to an OiC. That also covers ResF members outside the country. An OiC can be issued by the government in a heart beat and has been for most operations. Note that the NDA technically keeps everyone subject to the NDA for their entire term of service. Voluntary releases prior to the expiration of that term are subject to regulations and policies. They too can be changed in a heart beat.

Your libertarian notions have little force unless a government, in times of crisis, can be easily cowed. If it can be it deserves to fall.