Question of the Hour

[JBoyd]

Well since its been a few days and no one has ventured a guess as to the second part of the question, I shall provide another hint.

The misrepresentation is that the germans had thought it was a white rose when it fact it was a white lily

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

Seems like the previous question has been "abandoned" so claiming salvage let me provide a new one

Been reading/listening to the O'Brian Aubrey/Maturin novels which prompted the following question:

What was the last time prize money was paid out?
I have an answer for the US Navy but I am more curious as the last time it was paid out for an action of the Royal Navy and if it was ever paid out for an action of the Royal Canadian Navy or its antecedents.

 

[geo]

During the Great War this was the distribution of shares;

First Class.-Captain in Command. 80 Shares

Second Class.-Captain not in Command, and Officers of equivalent Rank, and Commander in Command or serving as Second in Command in a Ship commanded by a Captain. 40 Shares

Third Class.- Commander not in Command, and Officers of equivalent Rank, and Lieutenant-Commander in Command, or serving as Second in Command in a Ship commanded by a Captain. 30 Shares

Fourth Class.- Lieutenant-Commander not in Command, and Officers of equivalent Rank, and Lieutenant in Command, or serving as Second in Command in a Ship commanded by a Captain. 25 Shares

Fifth Class.- Lieutenant not in Command, and Officers of equivalent Rank, and Sub-Lieutenant, Mate, or Commissioned Warrant Officer, in Command. 20 Shares

Sixth Class.-Sub-Lieutenant not. In Command, Mate, Commissioned Warrant Officer, and Officers of equivalent Rank, Warrant Officer, R.N., or R.N.R., in Command. 15 Shares

Seventh Class.-Warrant Officer, R.N., and equivalent Ranks, and Royal Marine Gunner. 12 Shares

Eighth Class – Midshipman, Clerk, Chief Petty Officer, Warrant Officer of Marines, Staff and Colour Sergeant of Marines, and equivalent Ranks and Ratings. 10 Shares

Ninth Class.-Naval Cadet, Assistant Clerk, Petty Officer, Petty Officer 1st Class (O.S.), Sergeant of Marines, and equivalent Ranks and Ratings. 8 Shares

Tenth Class.-Petty Officer 2nd Class (O.S.), Leading Seaman, Corporal and Bombardier of Marines, and equivalent Ranks and Ratings. 6 Shares
Eleventh Class. – Able Seaman, Private Gunner and Bugler of Marines (after training), Second Head Krooman, Second Tindal, and equivalent Ranks and Ratings. 5 Share

Twelfth Class.-Ordinary Seaman, Private, Gunner and Bugler of Marines (before completion of training), and equivalent Ranks and Ratings; Native Seamen and Stokers. 3 Shares

Thirteenth Class.-Supernumeraries (except as provided in paragraph 6) and Canteen Attendants. 2 Shares

Fourteenth Class – Boys. 1 Share

Believe the last distribution for a War Prize went to the Capt & crew of the HMAS Sydney afet having disposed of SMS Emden - the light cruiser that terrorized allied shipping in the Indian ocean.

 

[FascistLibertarian]

What was the last battle in which a British formation fought wearing kilts?

 

[JBoyd]

due to the fact that my question was abandoned I shall provide the missing answer.

The secondary reference to White Rose in WWII was Lydia Litvyak - the White Lily of Stalingrad.  She had a white lily painted on the side of her aircraft and the germans mistook it for a white rose. There was also a play about her titled 'White Rose' that was performed once at the Belgrade Studio Theatre in Coventry

 

[Lumber]

What was the last battle in which a British formation fought wearing kilts?

The Battle of Dunkirk?

 

[geo]

The Battle of Dunkirk?

Nope, seen pictures of El Alamein with Highlanders in kilts moving foreward...

 

[chrisf]

Nope, seen pictures of El Alamein with Highlanders in kilts moving foreward...

Then Wikipedia is wrong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_kilt (Near the bottom of the page. And I'd also like to note that I'm not trying to be confrontational here. It doesn't surprise me at all that wikipedia is wrong. Perhaps once the answer is correctly determined somone would care to edit the page?)

 

[geo]

wikipedia wrong? really?

Note, that Dunkirk could be the last large scale use of the kilt & that the few individuals I saw in a pic @ El Alamein might be an aberation.....

 

[Lumber]

wikipedia wrong? really?

Note, that Dunkirk could be the last large scale use of the kilt & that the few individuals I saw in a pic @ El Alamein might be an aberation.....

From my searching, at El Alamein it seemed like only the pipers were wearing the kilt, and not any sort of large formation in combat.

 

[time expired]

Battle of Gordie's Bar Sennelager,late 60s between believe 2nd.Bn.Black Watch
(Brit.) and R22er.Results were somewhat obscured by the intervention of
of an extremely unruly mixed group of RMP Redcaps,and Can.Provost Corps.
Ah the memories of a Cold War warrior.
                                            Regards.
PS The Watch guy must have been on a parade as they were all wearing
kilts,not usual at the All Arms Training Center.

 

[chrisf]

wikipedia wrong? really?

I know, isn't it shocking? 

 

[exspy]

I think the main clue word in this question is 'formation', you know, brigade or larger.

So, what was the last battle in which a British Army 'brigade' (or larger) last wore kilts?

I'm thinking that would make it a Highland Brigade either during the South African War or early in The Great War, ie 1914 or 1915.

Dan.

 

[geo]

Highlanders did wear their kilts through the trench warfare of WW1.
I have photos of Cdn Highlanders going over the top in 17/18 wearing their kilts...... Highalnd heavy Brigades in the CEF
I am positive the Impreial highland regiments wore them as well.  Though I would have to research to validate....

 

[Danjanou]

Imperial and Canadian Highlanders did wear Kilts as part of their normal battle uniform in World War 1. Other Dominion units would have worm them too, although I think only South Africa had “Highland” or “Scottish” Battalions.

If we’re looking for battalion sized actions then the Transvaal Scottish a South African Terriitorial Regiment was mobilized and fought in the 1922 Rand Miners Revolt a rather bloody uprising. I’m sure some Imperial Highland Regiments would also have seen action in India on the NW Frontier in the 1920s and 1930s.

Time Expire as long as we’re discussing ahem FIBUA, then I can beat that date. The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada and the Pipes and Drums of the Black Watch  (UK) versus the crew of some Balkan Freighter visiting Vancouver in the Battle of  The Harp and Heather in Gas Town circa 1978-79 if memory serves me.

(edit to correct typos)

 

[Danjanou]

Update:

I know we've been arguing re the 51st Highland Divison fighting in France in 1940 being the last and I do remember seeing/reading somewhere that some units wore kilts in the delaying actions prior to Dunkirk.  However I know wonder if this was the last action. The Gordons and Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders both had Battalions that fought in Malaya and Singapore in 1941-42 and I think they wore Kilts then too. Off to research via google.

 

[time expired]

OK,Danjanou, you win,those Black Watch guys,you can dress
them up but you can´t take them anywhere.
                                          Regards

 

[tomahawk6]

http://ww2chat.com/forums/news-articles/934-seaforth-highlanders-mural.html

That's why the Camerons wear the Blue Hackle, in recognition of being the last Highlanders to wear the Kilt (officially) in battle.

 

[exspy]

T6,

Sorry but I have to disagree with you.  I found this on canadiansoldiers.com which had a whole page on just the 'blue hackle'.

QUOTE:
In 1939, the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of the British Army, like all Highland Regiments in the British Empire, abandoned the kilt as combat dress. The CO of the First Battalion, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders, was determined that with the kilt gone, his unit should still be distinctively dressed. To do so, he ordered the white hackle normally worn with the tropical helmet to be worn on the balmoral.

King George V inspected the battalion on 5 Dec 1939, and the King agreed to the suggestion of wearing the hackle on the balmoral, but suggested that Royal Blue was more appropriate. Eight hundred hackles were made up and the battalion wore them at Arras for the first time on 11 Feb 1940. Incidentally, the battalion also continued to wear the kilt, and were the last regiment to wear it in action, going all the way through Dunkirk so clad.

The blue hackle was discontinued until it could be approved by the War Office, which only did so in 1951.
UNQUOTE.

According to this the Cameron's had the blue hackle 4 months prior to Dunkirk.

I also think that while the Cameron's are allegedly the last 'unit' to wear the kilt in battle, the original question did ask for the last 'formation' to do so.  We should be looking for the last field brigade to have done this.

Dan.

 

[FascistLibertarian]

Yeah......
In the Mircle of Dunkirk Walter Lord says the last time they were used was during the rearguard action....
However you guys seem to have examples after that, so my face is a bit red now, asking a question I didnt have the apparent right answer to
LOL