Reconstitution

[Navy_Pete]

I've always been cognisant of the UoS provisions and the conflicting CHRC and Charter challenges to that. I always thought that UoS was one of those self evident things but give a bunch of legislative draftsmen and some lawyers a minute and they can set common sense on its head.

At the same time being able to keep wounded veterans or even veterans that DND has simply invested time and money on available to the system without undermining UoS would also be of value. I would have thought of some time of transfer system to the Civil Service with flow through benefits wouldn't be impossible to make happen. Whether they are employed back with DND or elsewhere is immaterial.

That reminds me though when I retired in 2009, I thought that the number of civil servants that I knew of on "stress leave" seemed pretty high. I'm not thinking of veteran PTSD here, I'm thinking civil servants in cubicles. How's that going these days?

The actual process to go from mil to civil service is pretty easy, and there is even incentives to hire veterans. Medically released CAF members are on the highest priority list, and normal retirements/releases are a secondary tier but still on a priority hire list. If you find a qualified candidate you can effectively directly hire them (after jumping through HR hoops).

The issue is more the lack of SWE, lack of HR people to process the hires, and in some cases, credentialism. You can do the same job in the CAF, but maybe not be able to do it as a public servant if the position requires something like an engineering degree (because of the classification). Which is weird, because you can get a P.Eng without it with equivalent experience.

Still a fair number of people on stress leave, and more that should be on stress leave, but when you are one person with the workload of 3-4, with no hope for a change like a posting, that grinds people down over time. I'm sure there are fakes, but have met a lot of dedicated PSs, who genuinely are passionate about doing their job properly so that the CAF has the tools they need, but when you can't buy spares, get contracts in place or otherwise do your job because of lack of funding, bureaucratic hurdles, multi-department empire building, etc that makes the overwork even worse.

I think the term for it is 'moral injury', but burnt out is burnt out, regardless if you are on a front line unit or in a cubicle..

 

[daftandbarmy]

The actual process to go from mil to civil service is pretty easy, and there is even incentives to hire veterans. Medically released CAF members are on the highest priority list, and normal retirements/releases are a secondary tier but still on a priority hire list. If you find a qualified candidate you can effectively directly hire them (after jumping through HR hoops).

The issue is more the lack of SWE, lack of HR people to process the hires, and in some cases, credentialism. You can do the same job in the CAF, but maybe not be able to do it as a public servant if the position requires something like an engineering degree (because of the classification). Which is weird, because you can get a P.Eng without it with equivalent experience.

Still a fair number of people on stress leave, and more that should be on stress leave, but when you are one person with the workload of 3-4, with no hope for a change like a posting, that grinds people down over time. I'm sure there are fakes, but have met a lot of dedicated PSs, who genuinely are passionate about doing their job properly so that the CAF has the tools they need, but when you can't buy spares, get contracts in place or otherwise do your job because of lack of funding, bureaucratic hurdles, multi-department empire building, etc that makes the overwork even worse.

I think the term for it is 'moral injury', but burnt out is burnt out, regardless if you are on a front line unit or in a cubicle..

Luckily, the consulting industry is helping out


The revelation that the Canadian government spent CA$15 billion (USD$11.2 billion) on consultant contracts in the 2021-2022 fiscal year has dogged Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s administration all through 2023.

Breaking the billion-dollar addiction to consultants in government - 360

Private consultancy companies have governments addicted to their services and the bill continues to balloon year on year, writes Denis Saint-Martin and Chris Hurl.

360info.org

 

[childs56]

The actual process to go from mil to civil service is pretty easy, and there is even incentives to hire veterans. Medically released CAF members are on the highest priority list, and normal retirements/releases are a secondary tier but still on a priority hire list. If you find a qualified candidate you can effectively directly hire them (after jumping through HR hoops).

The issue is more the lack of SWE, lack of HR people to process the hires, and in some cases, credentialism. You can do the same job in the CAF, but maybe not be able to do it as a public servant if the position requires something like an engineering degree (because of the classification). Which is weird, because you can get a P.Eng without it with equivalent experience.

Still a fair number of people on stress leave, and more that should be on stress leave, but when you are one person with the workload of 3-4, with no hope for a change like a posting, that grinds people down over time.

Why should more be on stress leave? If the job is that hard or that difficult then find a new job.


'm sure there are fakes, but have met a lot of dedicated PSs, who genuinely are passionate about doing their job properly so that the CAF has the tools they need, but when you can't buy spares, get contracts in place or otherwise do your job because of lack of funding, bureaucratic hurdles, multi-department empire building, etc that makes the overwork even worse.

I think the term for it is 'moral injury', but burnt out is burnt out, regardless if you are on a front line unit or in a cubicle..

most if not all these issues have been created by the Public service themselves over the years. That "moral injury" has been self inflicted over the decades of empire building. Slowly making niche jobs specific to what they thought was good to do and create a safety net.
To many involved have been part of changing/modify the procurement process to fit their task. They called this stream lining. All the while it was lining the pockets of some individuals.
One thing I like about private companies is if they are loosing to much money they can adapt to another process easier then the government does.

Luckily, the consulting industry is helping out

Surprise that more then a few make a specific job task while working the public service, to turn around and say it is not workable. To turn around and magically do the same job as a contractor for more money.
Private industry does this lots also, especially with government contracts.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Surprise that more then a few make a specific job task while working the public service, to turn around and say it is not workable. To turn around and magically do the same job as a contractor for more money.
Private industry does this lots also, especially with government contracts.

When you can't fire people for non-performance it's easier to hire outsiders to get the work done, at an extra coast, it seems.

 

[FJAG]

I'm sure there are fakes,

You know, it's not really them I'm concerned about. They could be dealt with assuming one had the time and resources to do that - which most don't.

Small anecdote. When I was on Class B for three years I had a small team that I was responsible for plus another team that we needed to interact with as the system we were building would end up being theirs to run when we were done. That second team had hired a new manager about half way through my tour. Almost immediately that the new manager arrived they went on a stress leave program that left them in the office about one day a week and usually behind a closed door. That locked the position and basically downloaded management functions onto junior programmers who already had a pretty heavy workload doing their own jobs. Since there did not seem to be any end in sight for their situation, morale in that team dropped dramatically and some good, and in fact critical, people started looking elsewhere for positions.

Coming from a civilian practice, I was quite frustrated at what I was seeing. Effectively, if you can't function in a civilian job, you're moved out of it. Yes, civilians are subject to the Charter and various HRCs but accommodation does not mean letting someone continue in a job getting 100% pay for 10% productivity especially in managerial positions.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Why should more be on stress leave? If the job is that hard or that difficult then find a new job

'If they are overworked just find a new job'

'WHy do things take so long'

You have the empathy of a turnip mate. Do you not see how the thing you complain about so much might be related? Overworked people either go somewhere else or burn out, and either way things don't get done, bins stay empty, projects don't progress. Glad you know all the solutions for someone who has never tried doing it.

Buying shit isn't niche. Project management isn't niche. Doing it in the GoC with all the TBS rules, PSPC rules, international treaties, domestic laws and regulations is niche.

It's not like front line public servants want to jump through 34 approval gates either, that's just the nature of the beast. Don't take out your ignorant lumping of the entire government on the thousands of people struggling through the necessary bullshit to get things done.

It's not like contractors don't have to jump through the same hoops at some point, and at some point someone still has to manage whatever the contract is, which includes all the bureacratic hoops to get contracts in place, get funding, make payments etc.

I've done similar things on the private side, and it's far more LOE within the government to get the same things done with much more restrictions on what you are allowed to do. People that can do it in the PS that switch to private usually are laughing because it's actually much easier.

 

[Navy_Pete]

You know, it's not really them I'm concerned about. They could be dealt with assuming one had the time and resources to do that - which most don't.

Small anecdote. When I was on Class B for three years I had a small team that I was responsible for plus another team that we needed to interact with as the system we were building would end up being theirs to run when we were done. That second team had hired a new manager about half way through my tour. Almost immediately that the new manager arrived they went on a stress leave program that left them in the office about one day a week and usually behind a closed door. That locked the position and basically downloaded management functions onto junior programmers who already had a pretty heavy workload doing their own jobs. Since there did not seem to be any end in sight for their situation, morale in that team dropped dramatically and some good, and in fact critical, people started looking elsewhere for positions.

Coming from a civilian practice, I was quite frustrated at what I was seeing. Effectively, if you can't function in a civilian job, you're moved out of it. Yes, civilians are subject to the Charter and various HRCs but accommodation does not mean letting someone continue in a job getting 100% pay for 10% productivity especially in managerial positions.

I lived through that for a few years; but it's no different than a CAF member in a position but not actually doing it for any number of reasons (taskings, MELs etc). We had multiple PS and CAF positions filled on paper but vacant in reality. Parental leave is another similar situation where you can't backfill.

Fortunately the CAF recognized that and decreased the expectations of what we could get done accordingly, and didn't create any new work for us. /s

When it's one in 50 not so bad, when it's 4 out of 15 (with 5 other vacancies) it was unsustainable.

 

[FJAG]

I've done similar things on the private side, and it's far more LOE within the government to get the same things done with much more restrictions on what you are allowed to do. People that can do it in the PS that switch to private usually are laughing because it's actually much easier.

I absolutely agree with that but one should never underestimate the impact that government imposed regulations can gum up the civilian side as well. Usually elected officials make laws giving the bureaucracy the power to make regulations. The bureaucratic fetish to centrally control everything is strong.

Fortunately the CAF recognized that and decreased the expectations of what we could get done accordingly, and didn't create any new work for us. /s

Only an industry that doesn't function on a profit basis can say "things are crap, let's produce less." Sigh.