Remembering 9-11 (merged anniversary thread)

[Jarnhamar]

But when we say "they" (their general population), are we potentially not just talking about a small percentage of them who are protesting?

I think this is an automatic reaction by the moderate Muslims who aren't embaracing the genocidal views of their more radical Islam worshiping fellows.
"It's a small percent who are violent,  99% of the rest of us are peaceful and we condem their actions".

Same thing moderate christians say about the fire and brimstone types or the child molesters in the church. "It's a small percent most of us are normal".

The thing is, I think the amount of "Death to Those who insult islam!" Muslims are a little more than "just a few". There's a hell of a lot of them out there and acting like it's just a few bad apples is going to cost some lives in the future.

 

[George Wallace]

Just going back to this for a second:

If nothing else, I am also happy to see that we have learned from our lessons in the past.  What we did in WW2 to Japanese Canadians was only marginally better than what the Germans did to Jewish people so we didn't have the moral high ground to claim.  No we didn't exterminate them all, but we still rounded them all up and put them in camps.

As has been pointed out; it was WAR.

Japanese Canadians were not the only ones interned in Camps during the Second World War.  Large populations of Ukrainians were interned as well, as were German and Italian Canadians.  Heck, even the mayor of Montreal, an Italian Canadian, was interned.  The same thing was happening in the U.S. of A. and many other countries.

 

[SeanNewman]

Just going back to this for a second:  As has been pointed out; it was WAR.

Japanese Canadians were not the only ones interned in Camps during the Second World War.  Large populations of Ukrainians were interned as well, as were German and Italian Canadians.  Heck, even the mayor of Montreal, an Italian Canadian, was interned.  The same thing was happening in the U.S. of A. and many other countries.

That other people did it does not make it okay.

We were at war against countries, and I am 100% all for everything we did against those countries.

That does not make it okay to racially discriminate against people who were completely innocent (which we did).

My original post was merely to state that I am happy we are not doing that to Muslims now.

 

[Infanteer]

On February 24, 1942 an Order-in-Council passed under the War Measures Act gave the Federal Government the power to intern all "persons of Japanese racial origin."

So that should be put on the same level as the Final Solution?

As per PuckChaser's comments, we have all made our positions known and we're all too stubborn to change our opinions on this matter so let's be mature enough to move on.

If you don't care to submit your statements to any sort of critical discussion, than by all means cop out.  But don't cover your lack of any defence for your logic with an "obviously nobody is right and this can't be solved" smoke-and-mirrors trick.

 

[George Wallace]

That does not make it okay to racially discriminate against people who were completely innocent (which we did).

My original post was merely to state that I am happy we are not doing that to Muslims now.

As you point out, we are not so likely to do so today. 

How did this happen, when only 60 some years ago our "Values", "Ethics" and "Morals" were so different?  We are evolving, hopefully for the better.  The question to ask is why the Western Asian states do not seem to be evolving as well.  In fact, they seem stuck in an era that is hundreds of centuries old.  I think we have touched on the answers in many of our discussions here already.  For those who are paranoid, or mildly suspicious of events, there could be the theory of Islamic World Domination and this could most likely be the factor feeding some of these radical religious sects of other Faiths.

 

[Infanteer]

How did this happen, when only 60 some years ago our "Values", "Ethics" and "Morals" were so different?  We are evolving, hopefully for the better.

Are we "evolving"?  We (the collective we) now hold weapons and have "strategies" that would see the wholesale destruction of societies in minutes.  Moralizing the attack of cities with W88s is a tricky one....

 

[PuckChaser]

Just going back to this for a second:

As has been pointed out; it was WAR.

Japanese Canadians were not the only ones interned in Camps during the Second World War.  Large populations of Ukrainians were interned as well, as were German and Italian Canadians.  Heck, even the mayor of Montreal, an Italian Canadian, was interned.  The same thing was happening in the U.S. of A. and many other countries.

Just because everyone else did it, does that make it right? War is not an excuse to go and do bad things to people based on race or ethnicity because they might be the enemy. Innocent until proven guilty is a huge tenet in our legal system.

 

[aesop081]

Moralizing the attack of cities with W88s is a tricky one....

You would think so but, no, not realy.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Thank you for the personal attack, but don't worry I'm sure you'll be fine.

What has really happened here is that many people have wrongly stated that I said they were the same thing, but they don't get in trouble for violating the site guidelines though even though they are misquoting me.

What I will accept responsibility for is saying something that was unpopular, but that does not mean it was wrong or "stupid" or that I should apologize for it.

Arrant nonsense!

You said: "What we did in WW2 to Japanese Canadians was only marginally better than what the Germans did to Jewish people so we didn't have the moral high ground to claim."

Both TV and JM faulted you, correctly, for the inconsistency of your 'logic.' You have no need you apologize for your opinions, even when they are, demonstrably, sophomoric, but you should grow up and acknowledge the flaw in your reasoning.

What we did (and didn't do) to anyone (Japanese, Germans, Italians and Eastern Europeans resident in and even citizens of Canada) was not, in any measurable way, "only marginally better" than Kristallnacht and Auschwitz, and to suggest they were is a grave insult to millions of Canadians in generations past, including those who fought and died to defeat the Germans, and you owe them all an abject apology for your casual, thoughtless insult.

We have things, in our modern 20th century history, about which we need to hang our heads in shame - the MS St Louis, for example - but the internments of suspected enemy aliens, during a war, aren't amongst them. They may have been unnecessary acts; there may have been few enemy agents and fifth columnists amongst e.g. German Canadians and Japanese Canadians but only hindsight is 20/20.

Of course there was racism and xenophobia in Canada in 1941 - it persists today - and of course some of the pressure to segregate and even imprison aliens came from racists and xenophobes, but the historical evidence suggests that the decision was made, despite the military's view that it was unnecessary (at least for the Japanese), out of an honest, albeit largely misguided, concern for national security. That is not what motivated the Germans in the 1930s and 40s. There is, simply, no way to equate the two situations; they were not alike; they are incomparable. You compared them, one to the other, you likened them, one to the other; you were and remain wrong.

Your original statement is wrong and you should accept and acknowledge that fact and we can all move on.

 

[Edward Campbell]

You are still missing the point.

German-Canadians, Italian-Canadians, Japanese-Canadians and Ukrainian-Canadians, at least, were all interned; thus it (internment) was not based, solely, on race, it was based on ethnicity and connection to enemy nations. (Ukrainians were interned because, we thought, the Germans found too many allies amongst the nationalistic Ukrainians in 1941/42.) Ethnicity was considered important in the much less multi-cultural 'world' of the 1940s; it was presumed that "blood was thicker than water" and it was, therefore, presumed that e.g. Japanese-Canadians might have deep emotional ties to Japan, (and Italian-Canadians to Italy, etc) where they had kith and kin - and a few did.

Further: the fundamental natural right to life was never threatened. Liberty was restricted; but so was the liberty of most Canadians - not as severely as the restrictions imposed on German, Italian, Japanese etc Canadians, but restricted all the same. It's what we might describe, in 21st century charter-speak, as being demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society, when the country is at war. Liberty is a natural right (along with life and property) but it is of a different order; liberty is never absolute (if it was it would be nothing better than licence), but life and, to some degree, property, are. Thus, in a free society, liberty can be constrained, temporarily, for good reason; one of those good reasons is to protect the public. Depriving e.g. German and Japanese Canadians of some, actually a lot of their liberty was, and remains, justifiable, in a war. Once again, hindsight is 20/20.

Thus, there was no threat to life and, consequently, no conflict with freedom because liberty and property were justifiably restricted. (There is some doubt, in my mind, as to whether or not Japanese property claims in the late 1940s were properly adjudicated, but that's another issue.)

You are still wrong.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm taking one, final, shot: I think that you, Petamocto, actually believe what you said - that Canadians of your grandfather's generation had only "marginally better" moral compasses than the Nazis. If that's the case then you are a bigger fool than you too often let us imagine, and you are an unworthy fool, to boot.

I, personally, am deeply offended by your comment because I, personally again, knew some of those people. You apply a broad and logically flawed brush to tar good, brave, honourable men and women; they don't deserve it.

_______________
On a personal note: I went to high school in Richmond, BC. Many of my classmates came from the village of Steveston then, in the 1950s, the biggest Japanese-Canadian community in Canada; my (Japanese-Canadian) girlfriend went to one of the camps when she was a babe in arms; two of my good Army friends, staff college classmates (Ken Murata and Tak Takahashi) were also internment camp kids. It is a subject with which I have more than just a passing familiarity. While I have the deepest sympathy for those (mostly) good, honest, loyal Canadians whose rights were (temporarily - for the duration of hostilities) violated neither I nor they, my friends from school and the Army, would ever, under any circumstances, compare the actions of Canadians to those of the Nazis. They were/are all waaaay to smart for that.

 

[mariomike]

If interested:
Regarding the internment of Japanese-Americans, this is a memo from FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover to the US Attorney General on the subject, less than two months after Pearl Harbor:
http://courses.csusm.edu/hist347as/di/ps_hoover.htm

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Imprisoning people solely because of their race, whether in war or not, is wrong.

We did (and do, and will do) things in war which are wrong.  Interning people is not the worst on the list.  But here's the thing: we do misdeeds because and while we are at war, and the worst things we do only when driven by the most vicious conflicts.  When war is over, we stop.  The wrongs are not cornerstones ("solutions") of public policy to be effected at all times.  Is the difference understood?

And scale always matters in the moral calculation, because intentions, means, and ends always matter.

 

[readytogo]

Very interesting read Mike,

    so if i read that right even Hoover saw the existance of japanese pers on the west coast(or anywhere in North America) as a threat on 2 fronts, 1 being espionage and sabatoge and the other being the constant threat of "race riots" pertaining to "atrocities committed by the japanese" in the phillipenes and that the local filipino population may seek a measure of revenge.  Even though the Japanese were law abiding citizens they are very loyal to country due to the close relationship of religion and government, and he sought some kind of temporary control over this threat.  Sounds perfectly logical to me, certainly of higher moral quality than Hitler and the SS.  War is war and every country has dark passages in thier history books pertaining to it.  But come on... the attempted destruction of entire races for no reason other than the fact that they exist, slightly different situation :nod:

my :2c:
RTG

 

[mariomike]

I am glad you took the time to read it, RTG. That was only the first four pages of it. Here is the rest:
http://www.internmentarchives.com/showdoc.php?docid=00094&search_id=49729&pagenum=005
http://www.internmentarchives.com/showdoc.php?docid=00094&search_id=49729&pagenum=006
http://www.internmentarchives.com/showdoc.php?docid=00094&search_id=49729&pagenum=007
http://www.internmentarchives.com/showdoc.php?docid=00094&search_id=49729&pagenum=008
http://www.internmentarchives.com/showdoc.php?docid=00094&search_id=49729&pagenum=009
http://www.internmentarchives.com/showdoc.php?docid=00094&search_id=49729&pagenum=10

Although 60 years apart, some have compared the emergencies of 2001 and 1941.

 

[readytogo]

So Hoover attempted to recruit japanese-american civillians in San Fransisco and others to provide information and insight into the activities as "almost all Japanese americans have relatives in Japan" and found them to be uncooperative.  So we have a percieved threat from another country during a time of war and X number of potential spies and or sabatouers with conceviably unlimited access to potential military targets and shipping lanes???  The people of the US and Canada then and today entrust our elected officials/security(intelligence)and military to protect us and our borders by whatever means neccesary, i say that they did just that and remarkably did so with minimal loss of life.


RTG

 

[Container]

Ahh the Quran burning.

I actually have a problem with the objection to the ridiculous "protest".  I can go outside and burn a bible everyday of the week. People would believe I was acting in bad taste but generally speaking I wouldn’t need to fear violent reprisal. The fact that this preacher was able to drum up such a reaction from North Americans sends a bigger message than the act itself.

Its like how I felt when having a black president was treated as such a monumental accomplishment.
Call me when you guys don’t care what color he is.

By stamping our feet and yelling "somebody think of the children!" we show how quick we will put aside the freedoms that make us who we are. I can say I worship the noddle monster if I choose- I can burn whatever paperback I want. I can also say that someone who burns a Quran is an asshole and I wouldn't hang out with him. The people that would kill western soldiers over this would kill them over something else- we save no lives and show weakness by appearing like cowards (at least its how I looked at media coverage). I love my country because a man can be an absolute douche and I can say- you're a douche. No one dies.

What do we gain by tricking the "others" into adopting our "system" if they will throw a fuss when they disagree? Our type of society wont work if they kill everyone they disagree with. So until these countries are ready to let alternate views exist there is no victory. We are actually in danger of reducing our own liberty. Obama should have just went on TV- big press release and say- "that guys an idiot- Western Hemisphere out". Just like we let idiots like the Westboro Baptists roam we must let these guys go about their business as well. Say and do whatever you want within the confines of the laws of the land (of which we already have too many). If we bend that at all we've lost already.

When you start advocating murder and violent upheaval then society needs to step in. But until then- feel free to rant.

Im open to an explanation of how the opposite would benefit us. 

 

[Kat Stevens]

Ahh the Quran burning.

I actually have a problem with the objection to the ridiculous "protest".  I can go outside and burn a bible everyday of the week. People would believe I was acting in bad taste but generally speaking I wouldn’t need to fear violent reprisal. The fact that this preacher was able to drum up such a reaction from North Americans sends a bigger message than the act itself.

Its like how I felt when having a black president was treated as such a monumental accomplishment.
Call me when you guys don’t care what color he is.

By stamping our feet and yelling "somebody think of the children!" we show how quick we will put aside the freedoms that make us who we are. I can say I worship the noddle monster if I choose- I can burn whatever paperback I want. I can also say that someone who burns a Quran is an asshole and I wouldn't hang out with him. The people that would kill western soldiers over this would kill them over something else- we save no lives and show weakness by appearing like cowards (at least its how I looked at media coverage). I love my country because a man can be an absolute douche and I can say- you're a douche. No one dies.

What do we gain by tricking the "others" into adopting our "system" if they will throw a fuss when they disagree? Our type of society wont work if they kill everyone they disagree with. So until these countries are ready to let alternate views exist there is no victory. We are actually in danger of reducing our own liberty. Obama should have just went on TV- big press release and say- "that guys an idiot- Western Hemisphere out". Just like we let idiots like the Westboro Baptists roam we must let these guys go about their business as well. Say and do whatever you want within the confines of the laws of the land (of which we already have too many). If we bend that at all we've lost already.

When you start advocating murder and violent upheaval then society needs to step in. But until then- feel free to rant.

Im open to an explanation of how the opposite would benefit us.

Best post in this thread by a long shot.  Well said.

 

[vonGarvin]

Anyways let's not confuse ourselves with the belief that what we as Canadians do is the bar for what is right or wrong.  Just because we had created internment camps in a time of war does not mean it is correct.

Good point.

This is though just my opinion that people should not be racially prosecuted regardless of whatever foreign enemy of the state they may share a common yet not threatening trait. (ie. religion)

A bit of a stretch.  Yes, we may have over-reacted; however, it was a rational reaction to an irrational situation.  And it wasn't racial profiling per se, but given that the war was "clean" in that those with whom we were at war were nations (and not loose affiliations, such as "Asians" or "Yellow" or "Gooks", but rather the Empire of Japan), it should not be confused or led down a path to assume that just because the 9/11 terrorists (as well as those involved with the USS Cole, or the US Embassy bombings, or the previous attempt on the WTC, etc) were muslim, that we should "round 'em all up".  Heck, if that were the case, then I would have been rounded up when the IRA were bombing, (being both Catholic and of Irish descent!!!)

Anyway, in the end, this dolt in somewhere USA decided that he wanted to associate Islam with Terrorism, and that he wanted to express his misguided anger by burning their holiest of books.  Naturally, the dolts in Afghanistan decided to kill, burn and protest themselves.  Yes, the world is full of idiots, and "their" idiots would kill us for any reason.  In the end, "our" idiot is off the front page, and hopefully finds himself buried in obscurity as an odd footnote of history.

 

[Rogo]

Point taken and yes the situations are different, and admittedly WWII had different public values than we have now and will have in the Future.