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Replacing the Subs

I'll be surprised if we pull the trigger but there is certainly lots of chatter and the recent P8/MRTT/AEW suggest that there is some hope. People??


I still think the SK offer is probably the best from a timing pov at least, Id also be surprised if we got 8
 
I'll be surprised if we pull the trigger but there is certainly lots of chatter and the recent P8/MRTT/AEW suggest that there is some hope. People??


I still think the SK offer is probably the best from a timing pov at least, Id also be surprised if we got 8
I like that the KS-111 comes with a VLS system as standard.
 
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From Victoria a submarine has a 3,402.9NM journey to get to Canada’s arctic border let alone start a patrol.

From Halifax, a submarine has a 2,500NM journey to get to the Eastern edge of the NWP

To me Canada has two viable options for submarines, joining AUKUS for those type SSN, getting a bunch of uncrewed patrol “submarines” to conduct under ice patrols in conjunction with the P-8A’s and a Mother Ship.

Given the way Canada seems to look at Nuclear Power these days, maybe the uncrewed method is for the best.
 
To me Canada has two viable options for submarines, joining AUKUS for those type SSN, getting a bunch of uncrewed patrol “submarines” to conduct under ice patrols in conjunction with the P-8A’s and a Mother Ship.

Given the way Canada seems to look at Nuclear Power these days, maybe the uncrewed method is for the best.

What if we tell everyone that the N in SSN stands for "net zero?" I already have a few ideas for the briefing note:

These new underwater patrol vessels will be Canada's first fully green nautical assets. They will patrol our northern waters without any carbon emissions. Furthermore, our vulnerable arctic waters will be safe from any possibility of an oil spill. They will patrol the arctic ice cap, monitoring it for the effects of climate change, and protect our northern communities from unwanted activities by irresponsible nations that do not share our ecological values. These underwater patrol vessels will be an important contribution to Canada's commitment to meeting its goal to be carbon free by 2050, and will contribute to global security by combating the devastating dangers of climate change. The Canadian Armed Forces are proud to be part of this important climate initiative.
 
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From Victoria a submarine has a 3,402.9NM journey to get to Canada’s arctic border let alone start a patrol.

From Halifax, a submarine has a 2,500NM journey to get to the Eastern edge of the NWP

To me Canada has two viable options for submarines, joining AUKUS for those type SSN, getting a bunch of uncrewed patrol “submarines” to conduct under ice patrols in conjunction with the P-8A’s and a Mother Ship.

Given the way Canada seems to look at Nuclear Power these days, maybe the uncrewed method is for the best.
i think nuclear is a non starter but i also dont think we have the time left on the Victorias to wait for nuke boats
need a time on station graph for us like the one for Australia
i hope we end up with new SSK's and UUWV
 
i think nuclear is a non starter but i also dont think we have the time left on the Victorias to wait for nuke boats.
Well we are selling the whole Virginia class boats to Australia as a win for the USN as its a boat we don’t need to crew, so I’m somewhat confident if the GoC wanted to join AUKUS it would be met with enthusiasm.

need a time on station graph for us like the one for Australia
i hope we end up with new SSK's and UUWV
Canada has significantly worse transit times, and a more significant under ice issue than Oz.
 
Well we are selling the whole Virginia class boats to Australia as a win for the USN as its a boat we don’t need to crew, so I’m somewhat confident if the GoC wanted to join AUKUS it would be met with enthusiasm.


Canada has significantly worse transit times, and a more significant under ice issue than Oz.
im sure we could join AUKUS, but i doubt the will is there. When would we get the first sub? Australia gets their first Virginia's in what 2032-2035? I doubt we can go that long and we going to be after that priority wise
 

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I’m not a sub guy, but the math for patrolling is pretty heavily weighted towards a SSN for Canada. It’s just the whole concept seems to be anthemia to the GoC.

Well maybe in the next Gov…
 
I’m not a sub guy, but the math for patrolling is pretty heavily weighted towards a SSN for Canada. It’s just the whole concept seems to be anthemia to the GoC.

Well maybe in the next Gov…
i think they are going to be allergic to the cost too. Plus i dont think we can avoid buying a interim SSK even if we went SSN long term unless we get some kind of crew sharing cooperative relationship with the US and AUS
 
i think they are going to be allergic to the cost too. Plus i dont think we can avoid buying a interim SSK even if we went SSN long term unless we get some kind of crew sharing cooperative relationship with the US and AUS
Would the french sell us Barracudas and are they a decent boat? They don't seem to have the backlog that the UK and US have but I speak as a complete landlubber
 
Would the french sell us Barracudas and are they a decent boat? They don't seem to have the backlog that the UK and US have but I speak as a complete landlubber

There’s usually a reason why something doesn’t have a backlog when others do.
thats always been an intriguing option would have been more of one if the Aussies made it work. Could they deliver? I think they are like the UK and set up to just barely build their own switching from attack to boomers and back again

and then again money and people
 
thats always been an intriguing option would have been more of one if the Aussies made it work. Could they deliver? I think they are like the UK and set up to just barely build their own switching from attack to boomers and back again

and then again money and people
The Aussies wanted an SSN. The French were going to convert a diesel-electric sub to a nuclear one.

Not an insignificant change and they would be the launch customer - it would be the Cyclone but with a larger chance of kaboom.
 
The Aussies wanted an SSN. The French were going to convert a diesel-electric sub to a nuclear one.

Not an insignificant change and they would be the launch customer - it would be the Cyclone but with a larger chance of kaboom.
they wanted a SSN performance from a SSK. Is it on record that the French wouldnt sell them a nuke boat? I find that hard to believe especially when they have been very involved in Brazils. More likely that there were just cultural/relationship issues that both were at fault for

Another problem arising from UK and French subs is the small reactor runs. I dont think you can just get another Barracuda or Astute without a planned build of the reactor


added the link for the Brazilian sub, another option on the table
 
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From Victoria a submarine has a 3,402.9NM journey to get to Canada’s arctic border let alone start a patrol.

From Halifax, a submarine has a 2,500NM journey to get to the Eastern edge of the NWP

To me Canada has two viable options for submarines, joining AUKUS for those type SSN, getting a bunch of uncrewed patrol “submarines” to conduct under ice patrols in conjunction with the P-8A’s and a Mother Ship.

Given the way Canada seems to look at Nuclear Power these days, maybe the uncrewed method is for the best.
Would the french sell us Barracudas and are they a decent boat? They don't seem to have the backlog that the UK and US have but I speak as a complete landlubber
Nuclear powered submarines are entirely a non-starter for Canada, no political party now or in the future is likely to sign us up for such a program due to the potential fallout. In order to properly set up the required infrastructure, knowledge base and actually procure the submarines, you are looking at program costs which would easily shoot past the PBO's $80 billion and climbing CSC program figure alongside likely decades to get everything rolling. Going from operating a handful of Cold War vintage SSK's to a fleet of SSN's is a leap that I find hard to eloquently put into words. Canada has tried twice in the past to procure SSN's and it has been canceled both times due to feasibility and costs. People think the CF-35 or CSC procurement is bad? An SSN procurement in the hands of the Canadian govt would be a disaster of astronomical proportions.

Britain's SSN building capability is entirely tapped out for the foreseeable future for their own programs, America is already stretched to the limit and then some to fit Australia's order in and France is also at capacity. The French are building their own SSN class, a class of SSBN's and 4 SSK's for the Dutch, they have no space for Canada now or into the future. French reactors are also messy affairs that require frequent refueling, no bueno for Canada.

Uncrewed vessels are not an option besides when launched from an SSK mothership, the technology is far too immature and potentially prone to being lost for the costs you would need to put into it. If you want any capability remotely approaching a proper submarine, you won't get it out of an SSK.

Canada will have to either shutter the submarine branch or invest in the largest, most potent off the shelf SSK design they can find. You won't be doing long term under ice patrols but they can be on station for periods of time in the North alike the AOPS, in warmer months and throughout the chokepoints leading in and out of the Arctic. That is the best we could hope for.
 
The Aussies wanted an SSN. The French were going to convert a diesel-electric sub to a nuclear one.

Not an insignificant change and they would be the launch customer - it would be the Cyclone but with a larger chance of kaboom.
You've got that backward. The French Barracuda-Class is a SSN. The Shortfin Barracuda they were building for Australia was a conventional variant. The Aussies dropped that in order to switch to the AUKUS program in order to get SSNs. There were obviously issues that Australia had with the French team but possibly a simpler solution for them would have been simple to go for the original French Barracuda SSN (if the French were willing to offer that)
 
You've got that backward. The French Barracuda-Class is a SSN. The Shortfin Barracuda they were building for Australia was a conventional variant. The Aussies dropped that in order to switch to the AUKUS program in order to get SSNs. There were obviously issues that Australia had with the French team but possibly a simpler solution for them would have been simple to go for the original French Barracuda SSN (if the French were willing to offer that)
Yes - my mistake
 
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