Replacing the Subs

[Colin Parkinson]

I can provide a shopping list SK can easily fill, if he needs one....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I know it's tricky logistically but if they commit to build parts factories in Canada, Id be super cool with all our shit being South Korean made. They make top notch stuff.

If you look at the contracts SKK has done, they are quite willing to be flexible on terms.

 

[PrairieFella]

If you look at the contracts SKK has done, they are quite willing to be flexible on terms.

Exactly. They're an awesome defence and industry partner.

 

[GR66]

And can our new subs bring their kid brothers with them???

Kongsberg’s new underwater drone completes longest autonomous dive

Kongsberg Discovery, a division of Norwegian defense contractor KONGSBERG, has achieved a significant milestone with the HUGIN Endurance Autonomous Underwater Vehicle (AUV). As noted by the company, the 8-ton, 40-foot AUV successfully completed a multi-week, fully autonomous mission, showcasing...

defence-blog.com

Have an AOPS deploy a couple of these equipped with towed arrays in support of a manned sub to expand the area they can patrol. There's even Canadian options as well.

 

[Czech_pivo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1833509444824797530

doing some legwork to see how we can up our defence spending

Anyone willing to place bets that something comes out of this meeting by Thanksgiving?

 

[dimsum]

Anyone willing to place bets that something comes out of this meeting by Thanksgiving?

I’m actually surprised he waited so long to go to the ROK.

There is a Canadian officer as part of the UNC leadership there.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I generally only got tired and had a headache. If I had a nap, I was good to go.

However, the older I got, the more sensitive to motion I became. I recall once on PRO coming back to ESQ from San Diego where we were very light and the ship was pitching- alot. The forward house (where the wardroom was) was a freight elevator to hell. I skipped breakfast/lunch/dinner that day and hung out in my rack- that was a bad day. The deck was Waaayyyyy out of limits (2 pitch, 4 roll were the limits: we were pitching through 15 with the occasional 20 that day), so we were not flying and I was not missing anything. Probably 10 years earlier, I would have shook that off.

Walking aft through the dispersal area to the hangar, you could feel the exact point when you hit the centre of moment for the ship. Everything was chaos in both directions- dead calm where you stood.

Long time ago I was standing Port wing watch with Provider just 200 meters ahead. We were in a full-on gale halfway to Alaska and every now and again I would watch Provider climb and then tip over a huge wave and her screws were turning in the air as she slid down the back side. That’s a lot of weight being thrown around.
Our little IRE was probably doing the same. It was the only time I can remember looking up at waves we were steaming into and if you looked aft it was very unnerving. Finally the CO told us to get off the wings and get inside the bridge, and that’s where I tossed everything.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Anyone willing to place bets that something comes out of this meeting by Thanksgiving?

Bill Blair is also stopping in Japan throughout this trip, I wouldn't be so sure that the Koreans have anything near locked in especially with how early in the program we are.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I am probably going to hate myself for saying this but:

Bill Blair is exceeding my (admittedly low) expectations for him as MND.

 

[Good2Golf]

I am probably going to hate myself for saying this but:

Bill Blair is exceeding my (admittedly low) expectations for him as MND.

…at least he is picking up what Austin is laying down…

 

[calculus]

And can our new subs bring their kid brothers with them???

Kongsberg’s new underwater drone completes longest autonomous dive

Kongsberg Discovery, a division of Norwegian defense contractor KONGSBERG, has achieved a significant milestone with the HUGIN Endurance Autonomous Underwater Vehicle (AUV). As noted by the company, the 8-ton, 40-foot AUV successfully completed a multi-week, fully autonomous mission, showcasing...

defence-blog.com

Have an AOPS deploy a couple of these equipped with towed arrays in support of a manned sub to expand the area they can patrol. There's even Canadian options as well.

Quite a few other options from Cellula, including the Solus XR, with a 5000Km range. Canadian AUV tech takes a back seat to no one.

Solus Family — Cellula Robotics

www.cellula.com

Also these guys:

Home - International Submarine Engineering

ISE has been a world leader in the design and integration of subsea autonomous and remote vehicles and terrestrial robotics since 1974.

ise.bc.ca

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Bill Blair is also stopping in Japan throughout this trip, I wouldn't be so sure that the Koreans have anything near locked in especially with how early in the program we are.

Interestingly he is spending four days in S. Korea, but only two days in Japan. More on his itinerary here:

https://www.miragenews.com/minister-blair-to-visit-south-korea-japan-1311584/

 

[Colin Parkinson]

For the Japanese to enter into the Arms Market with us as a buyer is likley to fail. They are inexperienced and we are nuts. From a negotiation POV, I think South Korea is much better placed to hold our hand and know when to say no early on.

 

[Rainbow1910]

For the Japanese to enter into the Arms Market with us as a buyer is likley to fail. They are inexperienced and we are nuts. From a negotiation POV, I think South Korea is much better placed to hold our hand and know when to say no early on.

If this was a typical Canadian procurement program where widescale "Canadianization" was on the table, I would generally agree. The Japanese are top notch ship designers and builders however, having them deal with much of the process we usually take would be a death sentence given their export experience. With Canada seemingly looking at a largely off the shelf design though, Japan's odds look far better than they would otherwise. I still think South Korea and especially Germany have better chances, but I wouldn't discount the Japanese as a contender just yet.

 

[OldSolduer]

For the Japanese to enter into the Arms Market with us as a buyer is likley to fail. They are inexperienced and we are nuts. From a negotiation POV, I think South Korea is much better placed to hold our hand and know when to say no early on.

If South Korea builds subs like they do Samsung TVs.....that's good with me.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Canadian Patrol Submarine Project - Tender Notice | CanadaBuys

NOTICE OF REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FOR CANADIAN PATROL SUBMARINE PROJECT (CPSP) This is a Request for Information (RFI). The Government of Canada is seeking answers to questions that have arisen in the refining of the requirement for the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project (CPSP). Responses to this...

canadabuys.canada.ca

Request for information (RFI) has been posted for the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project with a submission deadline of November 18th, 2024 and an overall closing date of February 28th, 2025.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

That is positively light speed, for a Canadian Project.

 

[PrairieFella]

That is positively light speed, for a Canadian Project.

Finally something to make our allies happy. Credit where credit is due to the RCN and GoC on this. 12 submarine is no joke.

 

[Happy Guy]

To be honest I'm surprised that an RFI was even issued. I am tepidly "hopeful" that this project will move forward up to the project bids process.

Within my limited perspective, I think that the South Koreans have adroitly positioned themselves compared to the current competition to offer the Canadian gov't more potential industrial benefits due to their partnerships with Canadian companies.

I do not know which of the current SSK platforms out there best meets our current and future needs but the Programme Director / Management Offices have their work cut out for them - $Billions, national security, potential Cdn jobs and repution with our Allies are riding on this. Good Luck.

 

[Rainbow1910]

I am going to post some important snippets from the public RFI as this is easily the most comprehensive release of potential requirements we have seen thus far. Please excuse the many quotes and long post but the RFI is 31 pages, so I will split the quotes up somewhat regarding their relevancy to each other. If you are not interested in reading the entire post here, here is my summary of some important points.

CPS will have the contract awarded by 2028, delivery of first submarine no later than 2035 and initial operational capability achieved no later than 2037.

Respondents to the RFI must have an in-production submarine or an in-service submarine alongside the capability to deliver no later than 2035.

Requirement of 6 simultaneously operational submarines.

Endurance minimum of 7000nm at 8kts & minimum of 21 days of continuous dived operations on station. Minimal capability of 60 days self-sustained operation.
Ability to use heavy weight torpedoes, anti-ship missiles and long-range precision land attack missiles.

Will operate near and in ice, with potential to operate under ice for short periods of time to transit from one ice free area to another.

Core crew of no more than 40 personnel, must be able to accommodate 8 additional personnel in permanent bunks.

Ability to deploy and recover off-board crewed and uncrewed systems.

The Canadian Patrol Submarine Project (CPSP) assesses that the most efficient means to procure a replacement fleet is to pursue foreign built Military off-the-Shelf (MOTS) submarines that meet Canada’s requirements. However, Canada wishes to receive information on how partnerships with Canadian industry could be leveraged to include Canadian technology and industrial capacity/capability in submarine production, including opportunities and risks. The CPSP will leverage Canadian industrial capacity/capability and create economic benefits in Canada through the life of the submarine, as appropriate, by requiring that in-service support over the life cycle of the fleet be done in Canada.

The following is the potential scope of work of CPSP:

a) Acquisition of submarines and systems that have all required capabilities and meet the HLMRs (High Level Mandatory Requirements);
b) Integrated Logistics Support (ILS), including publications, maintenance plans, sparing, training and training systems and simulators;
c) In-Service Support (ISS), including 3rd line maintenance; and
d) Infrastructure that may be required to support platform and systems.

CPSP has set target dates for critical milestones that will be necessary to ensure the first Canadian Patrol Submarine (CPS) are delivered before the VCS fleet is retired. The CPSP targeted milestones are:

• Contract Award -Commence Acquisition Implementation in 2028
• Delivery of first replacement submarine no later than 2035
• Achieve Initial Operational Capability (IOC) no later than 2037
• Achieve Full Operational Capability (FOC) (TBD)

Draft High Level Mandatory Requirements

HLMR #1 - Urgency, Availability, and Sustainment

Ability to deliver submarine, maintenance facilities and training systems to achieve Initial Operating Capability no later than 2037.

Explanation: The anticipated reduced availability of the VCS will directly impact force generation and the production of key qualifications within the submarine force. To avoid a capability gap and to ensure that crews can be generated as the CPS fleet is delivered the requirement is to have the first of class CPS delivered no later than 2035. IOC is defined as the first CPS being fully operational with requisite infrastructure and In-Service-Support in place.

HLMR #2 – Fleet Size

Ability to perform lines of tasking as follows: 3 submarines for continental defence/global deployment, 3 submarines for national and international exercises and force generation simultaneously.

Explanation: In accordance with ONSAF, CPSP is exploring the renewal and expansion of the CAF’s submarine fleet to enable the RCN to project a persistent deterrent on all three coasts, with under-ice capable, conventionally powered submarines. The CPS fleet size must be sufficient to complete assigned missions and roles throughout its service life. In order to achieve 6 simultaneously operational submarines as described above, it is acknowledged that the total fleet size must be larger to accommodate submarines in various levels of maintenance.

HLMR #3 – Endurance and Persistence

Ability to operate discretely without external support for minimum transits of 7000nm (2x 3500nm) at 8kts, and a minimum of 21 days of continuous dived operations while on station. Capable of no less than 60 days self-sustained operation.

Explanation: The CPS must be capable of conducting continental defence missions including Arctic patrols from home ports in Halifax and Esquimalt. The absence of support facilities in the Arctic mean that the submarine must be able to conduct such patrols unsupported.

HLMR #4 – Lethality

Ability to perform precision attacks to include the use of the following weapons systems: heavy weight torpedoes, anti-ship missiles and long-range precision land attack missiles.

Explanation: The CPS must be capable of detecting, targeting, engaging, and destroying threats, both at sea (surface and subsurface) and ashore. To achieve this, the CPS must be capable of carrying and employing an appropriate combination of sensors and weapons to detect and deter maritime threats, control Canada’s maritime approaches, and hold distant adversaries at risk with the capability to project power ashore.

HLMR #5 – Operating Environment

Ability to operate worldwide throughout the year, both by day and by night, in temperatures ranging from tropical to Arctic. Ability to operate near, in and if necessary, under ice (for limited periods of time).

Explanation: The CPS must be capable of global deployment. Arctic operations will predominantly take place within navigable waters, which are expected to expand in the coming decades. CPS will operate near and in ice, and on occasion, will be required to operate under ice for short periods of time to transit from one ice free area to another.

HLMR #6 – Environmental Compliance

Ability to operate in compliance with the environmental regulations in all areas of operation, including the Arctic.

HLMR #7 – Crew Size

Ability to minimize crew size using automation and remote monitoring.

Explanation: The CPS must be able to be operated with a core crew of no more than 40 personnel. In addition, the submarine must be able to accommodate 8 additional personnel (riders) in permanent bunks.

HLMR #8 – Survivability (Stealth)

Ability to operate in contested environments while maintaining tactical advantage with low acoustic (passive and active), magnetic, and Infrared (IR) signatures to prevent counter-detection.

Explanation: The CPS must be able to maintain tactical advantage over new and developing detection systems including airborne magnetic anomaly detection, electric field detection and acoustic detection through reduced signature and low target echo strength. Stealth should also be enabled by operational signature management that allows the submarine to manage its signature to meet operational conditions.

HLMR #9 – Interoperability

Ability to communicate and share information and data within mission frameworks utilizing high-assurance cryptographic capabilities (algorithms and protocols) compliant with the US Crypto Modernization Program to ensure a high degree of security for information confidentiality, integrity, and availability.

Explanation: The CPS must be capable of data and information flow with organizations, submarines, systems and applications necessary to complete its missions. This includes all aspects of being able to work with others in a robust, secure and sustainable manner, both integrated and networked. More specifically, it includes regulatory compliance and standardization to ensure operational and tactical interoperability.

HLMR #10 – GBA+

Ability to create an inclusive environment in which all crew members have equitable opportunity for employment.

Explanation: DND and the CAF are dedicated to creating an inclusive and safe environment for a diverse defence team, including aboard vessels. As people will be central to submarine operations for the foreseeable future, intersectional considerations will be included in the overall requirements for the project. Specifically, these considerations will be integrated in the submarine selection process through the inclusion of a High-Level Mandatory Requirement requiring a “safe and inclusive environment for all crew members”. For reference, this requirement would evaluate how each submarine meets the “5-95th percentile” criteria. Specifically, this means ensuring that submarines are adapted to bodies which are found between the anthropometric measurements of the 5th percentile female and the 95th percentile male. This will ensure that the submarine and its amenities are adapted to the vast majority of men, women, and gender-diverse individuals, therefore increasing the meaningful participation and operational effectiveness of all submariners.

HLMR #11 – Extended Operational Effectiveness

Ability to deploy and recover off-board crewed and uncrewed systems to extend the sensor reach and deliver effect to the underwater battlespace.

Explanation: As a “system of systems,” modern submarines are equipped to employ and support crewed and uncrewed vehicles, in addition to other armaments and intelligence gathering capabilities – making submarines a true force multiplier. The CPS must be capable of contributing to seabed warfare.

HLMR #12 – Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR)

Ability to conduct multi-domain, multi-spectral sensing and to process, analyze and store data from onboard systems and external sources for real or near real-time exploitation and dissemination.

Explanation: The CPS must be capable of sensing across maritime surface and sub-surface domains and throughout the electromagnetic spectrum to detect, locate, classify, identify, track and collect intelligence on targets of interest in all conditions, day and night. It also includes the use of automation, data fusion, decision support tools and advanced algorithms and methods (e.g. machine learning and artificial intelligence) to lower operator workload and increase effectiveness in processing sensor data.

HLMR #13 - Infrastructure

Provide infrastructure and equipment on both East and West Coasts to meet operational support requirements, including all levels of maintenance, and training requirement.

Explanation: Recapitalization of existing and construction of new submarine support infrastructure will be required to enable and support the operations of the future submarine fleet. The physical characteristics of the future submarines and their designed operation, maintenance and training philosophy will be assessed against the existing infrastructure portfolio to determine a comprehensive set of submarine support infrastructure requirements.

HLMR #14- Training

Conduct shore-based operational and technical training on the East Coast and West Coast.

Explanation: Individual and collective training must be available to submariners on both the East and West Coasts. This can be a combination of real, virtual and augmented reality training with an aim to end the requirement for submariners to be away from home for extended periods of time for shore-based training.

HLMR #15 – Upgradeability and Growth Potential

Ability to upgrade submarine capability to maintain an operational advantage for the CPS service life.

Explanation: The CPS must maintain an operational advantage by keeping pace with technological change to counter and/or leverage disruptive technologies, as well as being prepared for rapid technical insertion through Continuous Capability Sustainment (CCS). To help achieve this, the CPS must possess the ability to upgrade existing systems and payloads. It must also have the growth potential to integrate new systems and payloads. This drives the requirement for sufficient excess margin for size (volume), weight, workstations, heating ventilation and air conditioning (HVAC), power, data busses, computational nodes, etc. The ability to integrate new systems and payload is also required to support special operations, by integrating mission tailored capabilities within an acceptable level of effort and in short timescales. This justifies the consideration for a modular open architecture approach that facilitates individual sensor updates and additions of new sub-systems and sensors on shorter timescales.

There is a set of procurement, construction, delivery and operational questions for interested parties as well. They provide some important information as well.

CPS will operate in and near ice, and potentially under ice for short periods. There is no intent to modify the submarine to be routinely through ice capable. What are the structural or equipment changes needed for this operating environment (i.e. upward looking sonar, ice deflectors for masts, hull valve covering, HVAC, etc.)? Identify any specific materials or systems required to operate in extreme cold temperatures that would result in design changes.

CPS will have a mixed arsenal of weapons, including heavyweight torpedoes (HWT), anti-ship cruise missiles and land attack missiles. Can the submarine support all these weapon systems? Can the current MOTS weapon control and discharge systems support these types of weapons?