Replenishing the Reserves, while cutting NDHQ reserve excesses

[dogger1936]

Sorry, something happenned and i am having to re-type my response.


I remember doing it and i remeber not liking it. I also remembered serving coffee at the Petawawa WO & Sgts mess and being glad when the CO put a stop to that and civvies started doing it. I didnt join the CF to serve toast and coffee on wednesday mornings......

Nope, never had the pleasure. I have dont lots of "duty this" and "duty that" wondering why i was there though. What i can say now is that i am perfectly happy my time ( and my troops' time) is not being wasted at the flightline gate, checking passes or waving in cars at the base's front gate.

Thats a good idea. I wonder how many guys arent interested in taking a tasking like this rather that keep themselves available for a tour. Will the windown in Afg. affect something like that ?

How long do you think soldiers will stick around if what they do is wax floors and clean toilets ? Talk to alot of Navy guys about cleaning stations on ships.......Its been mentioned on this site has a big dissatisfier.....

We all have to do less than desirable work. A CMBG has plenty of per's sitting around even when the brigade is deployed.An occasional mop out on a friday of the hanger offices before being cut loose at 13h00...I don't think it ever destroyed our morale.honestly what we use to complain about was why we were doing it....when we had CLEANERS! :nod: And honestly i'll take cleaning a shitter over burning it anyday.....and we did that.

Maybe the wind down will aid in this, however contracts are signed to these companies...I dunno how that would play out.

Just a bunch of money waste I've seen.

And how about base construction? CFHA? How was it they could run and maintain the PMQ's before...now we need a civilian company and base CE no longer fixs anything in the PMQ's? Civilians to mow our grass....the list goes on and on.

 

[Journeyman]

That said, I don't see any real indication that the Gen is after the Res soldiers on the armoury floor

With DIN access,* have a read of this doc, signed off for the CLS on 19 Oct.

I suspect the motivation of the budget numbers and slashing Cl B is to.... ahem, encourage....Res soldiers with a) Afghan experience, and/or b) productive full-time experience to CT to the RegF -- the former usually being younger soldiers who have 'proven' themselves operationally; the latter often being those pesky, but knowledgeable, annuitants.
The remainder get to re-enact the 1919 militia.


* If you don't have DIN access, don't ask; while unclassified, if it was intended for public consumption, it would have been posted outside the firewall. Désolé

 

[Teeps74]

With DIN access,* have a read of this doc, signed off for the CLS on 19 Oct.

I suspect the motivation of the budget numbers and slashing Cl B is to.... ahem, encourage....Res soldiers with a) Afghan experience, and/or b) productive full-time experience to CT to the RegF -- the former usually being younger soldiers who have 'proven' themselves operationally; the latter often being those pesky, but knowledgeable, annuitants.
The remainder get to re-enact the 1919 militia.


* If you don't have DIN access, don't ask; while unclassified, if it was intended for public consumption, it would have been posted outside the firewall. Désolé

And yet...

CTs are closed.

 

[Journeyman]

CTs are closed.

....for now -- giving suitable Reservists until 1 April to get appropriately bitter & twisted 

 

[George Wallace]

As you drain all the "experience" and "talent" out of the Reserves, and don't bother to encourage a reverse CT of older Reg Force members to the Reserves to maintain some sort of mentoring of new recruits, what will we have in a couple of years?  The Reserves are seeing their junior officers and MCpls and Sgts CT leaving very little to provide continuity and perpetuate their units.

 

[pbi]

As you drain all the "experience" and "talent" out of the Reserves, and don't bother to encourage a reverse CT of older Reg Force members to the Reserves to maintain some sort of mentoring of new recruits, what will we have in a couple of years?  The Reserves are seeing their junior officers and MCpls and Sgts CT leaving very little to provide continuity and perpetuate their units.

I would submit that there is a considerably higher proportion of RegF annuitants in the Res today than ever before. While I would agree that there are a number serving in B/C posns in jobs that have little do with the Res units directly, IMHO there are also folks on the Armoury floor all across the country who have RegF time.

On releasing from the RegF, everybody is given the option of transferring to the Res: it's part of the release documentation. That said, I'm in the process of transferring from the RegF to the PRes myself, and all I'll say is that it is very, very far from the "seamless" transfer that Gen Hillier once envisioned. I'll get there, I know, but I can see where lots of retiring RegF might just say "***** it" and fade away.

As far as experienced Res joining the RegF: I think this has always been a sore issue (there was a "raiding" about a decade or more ago, IIRC). But what to do about it? If  a Res soldier tries soldiering on a full time basis and decides he likes it, why shouldn't he be able to transfer? He is (in most cases...) a far better prospect than a raw civvy, since he has already proven himself, especially if he has op experience. Lots of people who went on to spend entire careers in the RegF found their taste for Army life on the Armoury floor (me, for one). Will the Res unit ever be able to offer him enoug scope and challenge to do what he wants to do? Or will he hang around the unit for a while, then just fade out? Why stay on the farm team if the big leagues are scouting you? There might not be CT vacancies now, but just wait until the post-Afgh attrition starts to hit the RegF.

On the other hand,  it takes a long time and a lot of effort and leadership for a Res unit to recruit, train and retain a soldiers, especially an Offr/NCO, and to have them disappear into the RegF hurts, badly. If the RegF is too obviously predatory about "body snatching", it will re-ignite old feelings of hatred and mistrust, and we will start to unravel the structure that a lot of good people have worked hard to build up over the last couple of decades.

As I noted earlier, I lived in the "Bad Old Days" in the Militia (1974-1982) when there was more than enough fear and loahting between the "two armies" to go around; people on Class B were regarded as something akin to "pariahs" or "turncoats" by traditional Reservists, and many people in the RegF would NEVER mention that they had served in the Militia. During my time in the RegF, I saw us evolve away from that to a much more integrated approach. Not perfect, at all, but much better. I don't want to see us go backwards.

Huge leadership challenges ahead.

Cheers

 

[Fishbone Jones]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/time-to-lead/military/military-cuts-to-target-reservists-paper-pushers-general-says/article1775604/

Military cuts to target reservists, paper pushers, general says
COLIN FREEZE and CAMPBELL CLARK
Toronto and Ottawa— From Thursday's Globe and Mail
Published Wednesday, Oct. 27, 2010 9:23PM EDT
Last updated Thursday, Oct. 28, 2010 7:55AM EDT
The soldier in charge of coming up with a leaner Canadian Forces is signalling that the axe will fall on the defence bureaucracy and the ranks of reservists to spare a fighting force that will be deployed to war zones and natural disasters.
In his first major speech since he took the role as “Chief of Transformation” in June, Lieutenant-General Andrew Leslie outlined a vision of a post-Afghanistan Canadian military that has fewer paper-pushers and that won’t skimp on mission might.
“Let’s not think about tinkering with outputs, the folks who actually go outside their bases,” the three-star general said during a speech to Toronto’s Empire Club on Wednesday. “... Let’s focus on the overheads, and not on the field force.”
The military appreciates the taxpayers’ top-ups of the past decade, he said, but “we know that every penny is important.”
In a new era of deficit constraints in Ottawa, the military’s choices are stark: It must cut soldiers and military hardware or redundant bases and staff. Billions of dollars and thousands of jobs – and untold lives in future hot spots – hang in the balance.
With the Canadian Forces slated to pull out of Afghanistan by next summer, Defence Minister Peter MacKay told Lt.-Gen. Leslie to figure out the military’s future after consulting broadly with soldiers, officers and academics.
Lt.-Gen. Leslie’s mandate is to trim about 5 per cent of the Canadian Forces’ $19-billion base budget immediately, without compromising future operations. “Once we finish this review over the next couple of months – not a lot of time – we’ll be making our report,” he told the Empire Club.
A third-generation soldier with a sparkling 30-year career, he reflected on how he had himself been in situations where under-equipped soldiers were rendered powerless in peacekeeping operations that “went pear-shaped.”
He seems unwilling to cut back on matériel: The Canadian Forces still needs “big aircraft and ships that can carry stuff,” Lt.-Gen. Leslie said, adding that armoured vehicles save soldiers’ lives when conditions get dangerous on land.
He declined an invitation to give his opinion on the Conservative government’s controversial plan to spend billions on state-of-the-art fighter jets. “That is the realm of the political,” he said. “And you don’t want your generals delving into politics while they are in uniform.”
And now the politicians and Chief of Defence Staff Walter Natynczyk must decide whether generals have too much support staff. Successive governments – both Liberal and Conservative – have created what many observers call a top-heavy military command, one supplemented at the bottom in recent years with burgeoning ranks of reservists eager to join the Afghan conflict.
The Canadian Forces has about 11,200 full-time reservists and another 23,700 part-timers. These “unprecedented” numbers, Lt.-Gen. Leslie said, have to come down. He expressed hopes the full-timers will join the conventional forces or settle into part-time work.
He said he is consulting widely – even probing “all sorts of information databases” – to figure out the military of the future. The world is unpredictable, he said, and Canada’s soldiers will have to respond to volatile foreign conflicts, natural disasters, increased cyber-attacks, and continued terrorist threats.
The military’s current budget projections amount to $44-billion less than the $490-billion earmarked in the 20-year-plan that the Conservatives came up with a couple of years ago.
The 2008 plan had called for expanding the numbers of both regular forces and reserves.
Now Lt.-Gen. Leslie is looking at cutting personnel at headquarters – which now has about 12,000 uniformed soldiers and 28,000 civilians – to shrink the military’s overall ranks, which now number about 69,000.
How much of this can be done in Ottawa rather than on bases in rural communities will have to be determined. “The fact of the matter is, we have so many redundant bases, it’s a drag on the system,” said Liberal Senator Colin Kenny, formerly head of the Senate’s national-security committee. “... You could easily find a billion in overhead [there], but I don’t think there is the stomach to do so.”

READ THE COMMENTS:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/time-to-lead/military/military-cuts-to-target-reservists-paper-pushers-general-says/article1775604/comments/

So, are the Reserves looking at another layoff this winter\ spring?

 

[vonGarvin]

So...the reservists who have more than proven their collective weight in blood in combat have to be told "Thanks for your service, now here's the door"?  Disgraceful.

I'm not saying that there is merit in "streamlining" reserve units (eg: amalgamating several units into one larger unit, while retaining regimental identity), but just hacking in the name of efficiency? 

If nothing else, Afghanistan proved to us that we need either (a) a larger Regular Force or (b) a larger Reserve Force that can send highly trained soldiers into combat.  I know what my answer is.

 

[canada94]

I don't think cutting Reserve capabilities and numbers would make much of a difference to the current economic strain we currently have, there are PLENTY other ways to save money through cutting useless and ineffective social programs we have in Canada, I'm not saying social programs are all bad/stupid, but some ARE.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I don't think cutting Reserve capabilities and numbers would make much of a difference to the current economic strain we currently have, there are PLENTY other ways to save money through cutting useless and ineffective social programs we have in Canada, I'm not saying social programs are all bad/stupid, but some ARE.

Except that those are not within General Leslie's mandate to look at ways to reduce the Defence budget.

From my read of the article, accepting that it probably has as many holes as any other piece of journalism, the initial static targets appear to be redundant base capabilities/establishment (whether that means entire bases or not) and the size of the Class B population (which, admittedly the more recent growth of which is probably mostly formed of people hired to fill holes in the Reg F establishment).

 

[canada94]

O'Leary; very true it is not General Leslie's job to mandate social programs, I just think all together limiting Canada's (Res) numbers and base's (if so) is not very appropriate. At a natural disaster prospective if a natural disaster occurs in within reach of bases in the relative area it would make assisting people easier, more bases, more ability but of course more cost.

 

[dapaterson]

There has been no indicaiton of a desire to reduce the number of Reservists.  There has been expressed an intent to reduce full-time Reserve employment - a radically different notion.

Given the NDA definitions of Regular Force vs Reserve Force (continuing full time service vs other than continuing full-time service), there can be no real surprise that there would be a drawdown of full-time Reservists once the increased demand due to sustained deployed operations has returned to the pre-deployment steady-state (more or less).

 

[canada94]

There has been no indicaiton of a desire to reduce the number of Reservists.  There has been expressed an intent to reduce full-time Reserve employment - a radically different notion.

Given the NDA definitions of Regular Force vs Reserve Force (continuing full time service vs other than continuing full-time service), there can be no real surprise that there would be a drawdown of full-time Reservists once the increased demand due to sustained deployed operations has returned to the pre-deployment steady-state (more or less).

I think General Leslie indicated that all together the numbers have to come down?

"The Canadian Forces has about 11,200 full-time reservists and another 23,700 part-timers. These “unprecedented” numbers, Lt.-Gen. Leslie said, have to come down."

Of course I might be misunderstanding this, If anyone can further explain it then please do so.

Mike

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Of course, when they cut the Class B across the country this time, it would be nice if it was handled equally, including chopping those under a different command filling all the jobs in Ottawa for the mandarins, that didn't get affected the last time.

 

[from darkness lite]

I suspect the motivation of the budget numbers and slashing Cl B is to.... ahem, encourage....Res soldiers with a) Afghan experience, and/or b) productive full-time experience to CT to the RegF -- the former usually being younger soldiers who have 'proven' themselves operationally; the latter often being those pesky, but knowledgeable, annuitants.
The remainder get to re-enact the 1919 militia.

Unfortunately there is really no incentive for many annuitants to CT back to the Regs.  I don't know any who are willing to repay pension payments (my co-worker has been an annuitant for 2 years, thats $45,000 in pension.....

 

[Journeyman]

Unfortunately there is really no little incentive for many annuitants to CT back to the Regs.

I agree. However, I know of three in Kingston (all Cbt A officers, two of whom had been NCM at one point [if that's a factor] ) who couldn't find work that appealed to them


....or they simply missed TGIF in the Mess with the 'old boys.' 

 

[54/102 CEF]

With DIN access,* have a read of this doc, signed off for the CLS on 19 Oct.

The letter is decent summary of the above need to cut air breathers

In retrospect one of two things comes to mind

A. the need was funded

B. the need was unforeseen (probably some of each)

If it was funded - no big deal - it parallels increased  funding for other major items for long range deployments (C17) but they always new it had a cap

It could have also been a way to have a stealth Army that was cut back by cutbacks before therise of Afghanistan - to prove this is not the casewe should see how many double dippers helped out along the way by location as well as reserves employed by location

Where are the big cells? True there are lots of reserves in play over these times but they sure arenèt drinking coffee in Ottawa.

So what am I getting at? Only by knowing where the big clusters are can we critique the forces manpower program (all reg and res). I suspect thereès 10 in every res unit = maybe 2000. Where are the rest?

 

[Haggis]

Of course, when they cut the Class B across the country this time, it would be nice if it was handled equally, including chopping those under a different command filling all the jobs in Ottawa for the mandarins, that didn't get affected the last time.

The only Class B's that the Army can cut are those owned by the Army.  There are an awful lot of things that won't get done at NDHQ and, more importantly, elsewhere if this isn't managed properly.  It's imprudent to believe that the Reg F members coming back from Afghanistan can be easily slooted onto an existing Class B position somewhere.

For example, you have an Army Reserve Sgt RMS Clerk working in a highly specialized position at NDHQ.  The CF has invested several thousand dollars to train that Sgt do do that job and the Sgt has worked there successfully for several years now on Class B, with increases in responsibility and accountability.  You can't just pluck that capability off the Afghan desert and plunk it down in NDHQ and expect everything to function as per SOP.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I think General Leslie indicated that all together the numbers have to come down?

"The Canadian Forces has about 11,200 full-time reservists and another 23,700 part-timers. These “unprecedented” numbers, Lt.-Gen. Leslie said, have to come down."

Of course I might be misunderstanding this, If anyone can further explain it then please do so.

Mike

You are misunderstanding it.  The cuts are to Cl B's, not to the Cl A.  We are about to return to a Cl A Militia, and that is a good thing.

 

[aesop081]

  The CF has invested several thousand dollars to train that Sgt do do that job and the Sgt has worked there successfully for several years now on Class B, with increases in responsibility and accountability.  You can't just pluck that capability off the Afghan desert and plunk it down in NDHQ and expect everything to function as per SOP.

The CF career system does that regularly. If you think a few thousand dollars worth of training makes someone "immoveable" you have been living under a rock. I work in a part of the CF where the individual training costs are in the millions and even here, people move on and are not always replaced with someone of similar training and experience ( sometimes, theres no one at all). Things may not function as per SOP at the start but the work can and will get done. No one is irreplaceable.