Reservists on Tour - selfish.

[Craig B]

Sorry if my post sounded whinny .

The point I was trying to make is that until recently ( Last 8 years or so ? ) there were no tours for Reservists . Why ? IMO because Reg Force units were at close to full strength and everyone wanted to go . Remember , in those days , tours were few and far between even for the Regs .

If the Army in general , at that time ( 80's and early '90's ) had ensured that say 10% of a tour was staffed by reservists we would have brought a lot of knowledge back to our units . That would have paid off _now_ . The new guys going on tour _now_ would be a step above due to our experiences .

Just another case of not investing in the future .

I think they should offer Class C contracts for reservists a year at a time to keep reg Bn's at full strenght and then give extension (if the reservists want) if the unit goes on tour.

This is being done now . Finally. The VanDoos are the pilot project for this .

I hope that Reserve units start investing in their future leaders by sending them on these call outs , as opposed to just sending someone who is between jobs or looking to take a year off of school .

I have a family - a son, and an ex wife.  I don't see anyone (specifically) in the regs whining that tours are too awkward for us?

Kevin , not here you don't . I have heard it first hand in Valcartier and seen the results . People just don't sign on again , or get a letter from the Chaplin , etc . It does happen . I'm sure you know of people like this .

Craig

 

[X Royal]

Craig,

Looking at your post all I see is the "me me me" attitude that the poster mentioned intiailly.

I have a family - a son, and an ex wife.   I don't see anyone (specifically) in the regs whinning that tours are too awkward for us?

Kevin I have to disagree with you. All Craig stated was during the given time span tours for reserves were few & far between.(True)
He stated at the time he could of been avalible oppertunities were few.
Now that things have changed his life has also. Life goes on.(Also true)
As for not seeing anyone (specifically) in the regs. whinning that tours are to awkward for them, during my tour in Cyprus 89/90 I only heard such complaints from some of the regs. These were mostly younger soldiers who had aprox. 1 1/2 to 2 1/4 years in. As for the reserves all were volunteers for the tour so no complaints should of been expected.
Part of the high turnover in the regs. is in part due to the high ammount of tours they are being sent on. This quite often happens at your jnr & snr nco level.
Some of these people have moved to the reserves & continue to serve where they can manage thier lives and family under terms more acceptable to them and thier families.

Pro Patria

 

[GO!!!]

Seeing as that a complaint w/o a solution is just a bitch,

Here's a couple of solutions to the problems complaints outlined here.

If you did'nt go for the medal or the money, don't wear it, and give the $ to a womens shelter. No one is making you keep it.

To address the "experience" that militia mbrs need, and can pass on to their units - make a mandatory retention period post tour - 12 months or so, or maybe staff on a set number of related courses. That way, the experience gained could e taken advantage of in a truly concrete and quantitative measure, as opposed to a simple allegation of qualitative improvement.

While I agree that reservists need legislated job protection, if they are to get it, there has to be some give from them too, in the form of mandatory weeks of trg, and minimum attendance levels. Can't do it? The economy is hot. The simple fact is that we need soldiers who are trained and able to be deployed when the CF needs them, not just when it is convenient. If your job at home is protected, your family commitments are the same as they are in the regs, no excuses. If any of this is too restrictive, I'd like to know how, because the whole idea of being a soldier is working as a team for a goal unachievable alone. When some members of the team are permitted more priviliges, and are asked less of, the team is now two seperate parts. So no, you are not part of the same army.

Mandatory callouts. (Without invoking the EM/War Act)The army needs you, and you are'nt sick? You go, or go to jail, just like the regs that you claim to equal. If your jobs at home are protected, this should not be an issue - after all - you serve Canada - right?

And finally, the primary opposition to these propositions will be that it will drive the numbers of reservists down, and provide a disincentive to become a reservist. If this is the case, maybe another line of work would be more suitable. Not everyone is cut out for military life, and no - one owes you a living, regular or reserve.

Thoughts?

 

[jmackenzie_15]

I don't know what reserve units you guys are coming from, and what kind of people comprise them, but the core of my battallion are high school and university students filling up the Pte - Cpl roles.

The NCO's are half reg RSS staff troops assigned to our unit, or guys that have simply been in forever, and have had this, as well as many mulitple part time jobs going from monthly payment to payment.

Most of the officers in my unit have various civilian jobs, as well as the reserves.(Schoolteacher, Engineer etc)


In regard to the tour supposedly coming up , that I started a thread on earlier, I would say 90% of our Ptes and Cpls have absolutely no intention of going anywhere, and would sooner avoid it altogether than "be selfish" and attempt to steal jobs from regF soldiers.
Most of them have schooling or other jobs they are more committed to, or simply just arent ready or dont want that type of long term committment to the army.

All of the guys that I know, that want to go on tour including myself, primarily just work in the reserves, are between jobs, or really just have no reason NOT to go.. some of them really want to, for an opportunity to do their job, like myself.

This mentality that reservists are all gimme gimme's and want tours, where I come from at least, is all but non existant.
Maybe 25% of the troops would consider going on tour.

My 2c from my experience in my battallion... I can't speak for others, but I found that generalization earlier to be puzzling.

 

[54/102 CEF]

Its a supply and demand thing - for the next several years the demand is greater than supply for manpower to go overseas.

Set your mind to it and it will happen!

At the same time keep a sense of balance

For reservists -

Your primary responsibilities are

School
Getting qualified for a trade or profession
Family
Army

In that order - if none of these apply to you what are you even doing in uniform?

Hey I only need 2 more months somewhere with flies and creepy bars and crappy R and R options and I could get the SSF Gong too!

But I choose to let the younguns go to the base that don't exist and get the experience.

PS: You want give back? How about this for a debating thread?

The reg force is killing itself not to put all reserves working full time on Class C. Time to backdate the great backwards step they took in April 2003 when they canned Class C and opened the gates to ex reg double dippers.

I am guessing this is coming -  as the economy will not go south for an extended period of time and the days of wholesale recruiting grade 10 grads are long over. The flip side of that is lots of reg force serving only 3 year terms so the staffs and leadership get a full time career. Pay sucks big time cash - so logically give the boys two tours and kick them out before they cost - higher wages - moving costs - medical costs as they get older and pension costs when they turn geezer.

I can think of no more divisive issue than reserve augmentees doing the same job in the same unit under the QR and Os and CFAOS which give no 15% discount on adherence to these regulations.

EG: I see some shady folks doing shady things like scoping out DND locations or loading weapons into their cars - do I report it or say - naw I`m on my 15% discount time? Of course I report it! But as some Navy Officer told me on my Class C redress - we don't expect the same out of you..... then I quoted the entire QR and Os back at him.

We`ll see - if the Brits and Americans can do it - we can too.

 

[X Royal]

I don't know what reserve units you guys are coming from, and what kind of people comprise them, but the core of my battallion are high school and university students filling up the Pte - Cpl roles.

The NCO's are half reg RSS staff troops assigned to our unit, or guys that have simply been in forever, and have had this, as well as many mulitple part time jobs going from monthly payment to payment.

Most of the officers in my unit have various civilian jobs, as well as the reserves.(Schoolteacher, Engineer etc)

Your unit must be drastically short on NCO's if RSS make up 1/2 of them. And to categorize the reserve NCO's as people who live from month to month on mulitiple part time jobs sure would not earn you any respect in most units. It could apply to some but I highly doubt it is representitive of the great majority of reserve NCO's. When I was a reserve NCO our unit had reserve NCO's who were police officers, bylaw officers, buisness owners, fireman, machinists and factory workers to name some long time jobs. We also had a few retired reg. force NCO's.

Pro Patria

 

[mdh]

Just as a point of comparison: the UK's Territorial Army is facing similar issues.  The war in Iraq has created a huge strain on the British regs to the point where some 30 per cent of its deployed forces are drawn from the TA.  The British government can force a TA to deploy once every three years for six months - a measure mitigated by job protection legislation.

However this has generated considerable controversy since many TAs simply cannot afford to be forcibly mobilized every three years. Moreover TA units are seeing the opposite phenomenon: people signing up only for the tour who aren't especially interested in the traditional sensibilities of the TA and its role as a local community institution. Anyone interested can follow some of this on the British equivalent of this site www.arrse.co.uk/

Here is John Keegan's take on the issue:

The British contribution to the war in Iraq has been maintained only by committing about 30 per cent of the Territorial Army. It is not the role of the Territorials to make good deficiencies in the regular forces during times of general peace. The calls made upon Territorials, though cheerfully met, so interfere with their civilian occupations that recruiting is adversely affected. If Labour persists in this trend, it will end by doing serious damage to our reserve structure and also leaving our regular forces even shorter of operational manpower.

Keegan was making the point that reserve forces are not designed for constant deployment - so I don't think GO!!!'s recommendations would work over the long term.

IMHO the crux of the issue is stark: if you want a reserve force of citizen soldiers you must have flexibility in their terms of service. If you don't want to provide that flexibility and insist on measures that refuse to recognize civilian commitments, you might want to consider abolition of the reserve force and a re-allocation of its resources to the regs.

Overall I like to think of the militia as a movement more than just a reserve force (a cultural artifact?) - it continues to preserve some martial traditions in our communities which would rapidly disappear without their presence.

cheers, mdh

 

[Haggis]

Here's a couple of solutions to the problems complaints outlined here.

Wanna work for DMEP? 

While I agree that reservists need legislated job protection, if they are to get it, there has to be some give from them too, in the form of mandatory weeks of trg, and minimum attendance levels. Can't do it? The economy is hot. The simple fact is that we need soldiers who are trained and able to be deployed when the CF needs them, not just when it is convenient. If your job at home is protected, your family commitments are the same as they are in the regs, no excuses. If any of this is too restrictive, I'd like to know how, because the whole idea of being a soldier is working as a team for a goal unachievable alone. When some members of the team are permitted more priviliges, and are asked less of, the team is now two seperate parts. So no, you are not part of the same army.

Agreed, but legislated job protection is a double edged sword.  I have many friends in the US military, from the SF community to the NG.  Job protection was a super idea immediately post 9-11.  As the conflicts dragged on, employers wer asked to step up to the plate repeatedly.  Not only is the employer feeling the bite of Spc Bloggins going back to Iraq for round 3, but Bloggin's co-workers feel it too.  Many US employers simply quit hiring Reservists.  That hurts the Reservist entering the workforce or the retiring "vet" who joins the Reserves after their hitch was up.  Canada uses the voluntary employer support approach and it works somewhat as we hoped.  Lots of room for improvement.

Mandatory callouts. (Without invoking the EM/War Act)The army needs you, and you are'nt sick? You go, or go to jail, just like the regs that you claim to equal. If your jobs at home are protected, this should not be an issue - after all - you serve Canada - right?

Right.    If the Reservist has something to come home to and IF the Army doesn't come calling again and again (see my comment above)  it couild work, but it's not a long term solution.  Offering incentives to employers would also be a good idea.  Compensate and reward supportive employers in a manner that not only gets them recognition but benefits their bottom line

And finally, the primary opposition to these propositions will be that it will drive the numbers of reservists down, and provide a disincentive to become a reservist. If this is the case, maybe another line of work would be more suitable. Not everyone is cut out for military life, and no - one owes you a living, regular or reserve.

There are many more incentives to become a Reservist and they're getting better all the time.  What has to happen is that Reservists have to be told UP FRONT and EARLY that they may deploy and that it will be a condition of employment backed up by protective and enabling legislation.

There was a recent thread on Reserve Terms of Service ... Flexible Engagements, I think.  Maybe these two threads should be merged....?

 

[KevinB]

Well maybe we should wake up and realize we are in a war.

Mobilize the Militia - equip them and train then and sent them off.


Really have to puke at Reg and Res bitches about deployment -- I have US buddys that have been home about 6 months in 3 years.  Look at the CAG guys - they get home for leave and thats basically it - the unit is deemed deployed (as in for ever and ever amen).

Even NG guys are out for 18 or so months.


If employers in the US are found out to be discriminating against reservists there is hell to pay.


Haggis - I'm baffled, GO!!! came up with a solution to the bitches that some here are using a a rather weak crutch for tours.

Quid Pro Quo - You get a tour - the system has a right to expect nay demand some sort of ROI.  If it is the solider/NCO being mandated to teach or staff a few courses - that is only fair.
Plus then the experience that everyone is bemoaning will transfer over.

What I have seen it primarily three types of reservists on tours.
1) I did it - I hated the unit whatever and like fuck am I ever doign ti again - or I am getting out
2) I did it - I love it I am joining the regs
3) I did it - I am staying on my Class B until the next tour...

#3 has potential to spin off for training - but often is employed in a position that has nothign to do with his tour employment.


I dont see any REAL bashing here - just and honest attempt to get a grassroots fix to a broken system (on both ends)

If we come to a solution maybe we can effect some sort of sit up and notice in DND - heck enough "reporters" surf this site, maybe they can write us a solution  :

 

[Brad Sallows]

Here we go again.

Exactly how large do you imagine to be the pool of people whose lifestyle between the ages of 18 and 58 allows them to drop out for a few months to a year at a time, several times over the course of that period?

The militia as we know it and have it exists to serve during emergencies.  By happy circumstance, some portion of it is available to augment non-emergency missions as an _exception_ to their working lives, usually near the outset.  The idealized half-civilian, half-army genus exists only in small numbers.

What the army needs is more soldiers to fill a BE and then quit or CT to the reserves.

 

[Craig B]

Well maybe we should wake up and realize we are in a war.

Mobilize the Militia - equip them and train then and sent them off.

Thats not such a crazy idea ,but I think its too late now . Would have worked the day after 9/11 .

Even NG guys are out for 18 or so months.

Yep , and the NG is going to pay for this big time . Its going to take 20yrs to rebuild the US NG and Reserve system .

If employers in the US are found out to be discriminating against reservists there is heck to pay.

The operative words there are " found out " . Can't raise heck if you can't prove it . Companies are , mostly , real good at CYA when it comes to discrimination .

Quid Pro Quo - You get a tour - the system has a right to expect nay demand some sort of ROI.  If it is the solider/NCO being mandated to teach or staff a few courses - that is only fair.
Plus then the experience that everyone is bemoaning will transfer over.

Excellent idea . GO!!!!! mentioned 12 months after a tour , but I think thats quite long . Maybe 1 summer training cycle ( 3 months )

I dont see any REAL bashing here - just and honest attempt to get a grassroots fix to a broken system (on both ends)

Agreed . Lots of us ( Me included ) can't know every problem from both sides of the coin .

Craig

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I dont see any REAL bashing here - just and honest attempt to get a grassroots fix to a broken system (on both ends)

Well I'm seeing lots. It's boiling down to the fact that all Reservists are shitbirds and, as usual, will never be worthy enough for you guys no matter what. The point your all missing, is that the Reservists that go, don't just show up at the gate looking for a job. The offer is made by someone much higher, and all the Reservists are doing is volunteering when asked. Got a problem with Res on tour, go bitch to the CDS, he's the decision guy. Quit slagging the Res for the inadequacies of a system they can't change any more than you can.

And while your complaining about young guys in the Battalion getting bumped by Res, how bout some blame all the pseudo professional POS Reg pogues who you couldn't pry from their desks with C4. Now that the tours are tax free they're coming out of the baseboards like cockroaches after dark. Maybe if you Regs cut down on the overbloated logistics tail full of Reg force tourists, the gunfighters could get a spot.

This thread is quickly heading for that special bin we keep trying to screw the lid on.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Well I'm seeing lots. It's boiling down to the fact that all Reservists are shitbirds and, as usual, will never be worthy enough for you guys no matter what. The point your all missing, is that the Reservists that go, don't just show up at the gate looking for a job. The offer is made by someone much higher, and all the Reservists are doing is volunteering when asked. Got a problem with Res on tour, go bitch to the CDS, he's the decision guy. Quit slagging the Res for the inadequacies of a system they can't change any more than you can.

And while your complaining about young guys in the Battalion getting bumped by Res, how bout some blame all the pseudo professional POS Reg pogues who you couldn't pry from their desks with C4. Now that the tours are tax free they're coming out of the baseboards like cockroaches after dark. Maybe if you Regs cut down on the overbloated logistics tail full of Reg force tourists, the gunfighters could get a spot.

This thread is quickly heading for that special bin we keep trying to screw the lid on.

Thank you my Brother Thank you

dileas

tess

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Don't get me wrong I KNOW there are many selfish reg force people - you should have seen as soons as the tax break for Afghan came out...


You'd have thought that they exumed crypts the way some people you'd thought got out years ago under covered some rock and made incredible pains to get on the tours...


Edit IF they got the damn TF crap canned units could then acquire and train the reservists they need on an AS NEEDED basis...

I think they should offer Class C contracts for reservists a year at a time to keep reg Bn's at full strenght and then give extension (if the reservists want) if the unit goes on tour.   As well steamline the CT provisions for reservist ont he class C for seamless integration into the regs...

A reg force admitting in a previous post about the deadwood. 

I think a lot of us have done reserves prior to going reg and therefore shouldn't be painted with a broad brush and may have some insight being on both sides.

 

[KevinB]

And while your complaining about young guys in the Battalion getting bumped by Res, how bout some blame all the pseudo professional POS Reg pogues who you couldn't pry from their desks with C4. Now that the tours are tax free they're coming out of the baseboards like cockroaches after dark. Maybe if you Regs cut down on the overbloated logistics tail full of Reg force tourists, the gunfighters could get a spot.

We've mentioned a lot of deadwood has resurfaced.

I don't do TO&E's if I did we'd be out shooting for about two weeks until everthing was broken and we were out of ammo, and then people realise I just brought troops with guns  ;D

I think both sides realise they are not perfect - where is the happy medium?

I know GO!!! got a rotten F over on RotoII thanks to some pinhead who thought that we should add more deadwood to NSE and farm out our force protection to foreigners...
Heck we trained for Op Cobra (cancelled) Haiti (stolen) and Rwanda (watered down then cancelled).

There are some pretty senior posters and I would guess even more senior lurkers here.

The issue has gotten to do with the fact the Res is to augment the Reg's - as such it should be augmentation when needed.  That call shoudl be up to the unit CO, who looks at his numbers knows via OC and CSM's how many bodies they are short or bodies that should not go, then back fill with reservists.
IF the theatre is deemed to "HOT" for reservists to deploy, we need to re-evaualte the training we give to reserves or the added value we give to their lives.

That is a workable solution that will not cause resentment.

Mandating a %age of reservists when there are regulars to fill the spots - that is problem causing.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I think a lot of us have done reserves prior to going reg and therefore shouldn't be painted with a broad brush and may have some insight being on both sides.

Yes we have, and neither side has a lock on grifters and pogues.

A reg force admitting in a previous post about the deadwood.  

We've mentioned a lot of deadwood has resurfaced.

Some others here keep bringing up the same tired diatribes all the time. Why can't I?

I think both sides realise they are not perfect - where is the happy medium?

Agreed Kev and I just don't know. What I do know though is that bashing each other isn't going to solve it.

I know GO!!! got a rotten F over on RotoII thanks to some pinhead who thought that we should add more deadwood to NSE and farm out our force protection to foreigners...

I am truly sorry for his luck, but it doesn't sound like it was a Reservists fault


Heck we trained for Op Cobra (cancelled) Haiti (stolen) and Rwanda (watered down then cancelled).

Again, not us.

There are some pretty senior posters and I would guess even more senior lurkers here.

The issue has gotten to do with the fact the Res is to augment the Reg's - as such it should be augmentation when needed.  That call shoudl be up to the unit CO, who looks at his numbers knows via OC and CSM's how many bodies they are short or bodies that should not go, then back fill with reservists.
IF the theatre is deemed to "HOT" for reservists to deploy, we need to re-evaualte the training we give to reserves or the added value we give to their lives.

That is a workable solution that will not cause resentment.

Yes it is, and the best all around one I've heard here and in other threads on the subject for some time.

Mandating a %age of reservists when there are regulars to fill the spots - that is problem causing.

Preaching to the choir brother, Can I Get an AMEN!!!

And with Kev's astuteness think it's time for this to go bye bye. (again) I'll leave it til 22:30.

 

[Blakey]

why would he want to join a peacetime Army and do three years of stuff he has no interest in,

Thats an interesting comment, why then join the reserves or militia, if one had no interset in doing it?

EDIT:
Or was it just that most had, "no interst in doing it full time"?, which I think was the case.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"Some others here keep bringing up the same tired diatribes all the time. Why can't I?"
'cause your staff and held to a higher power ;D

 

[Fishbone Jones]

"Some others here keep bringing up the same tired diatribes all the time. Why can't I?"
'cause your staff and held to a higher power ;D

And with that

Time to tap dance this puppy outta here.