Sailors don't wear CADPAT direction by CANFORGEN

[medaid]

Well the Navy does have a reserve unit in nearly every major Canadian city, so visibility is a non issue.  I agree with Tar, Purple trades should be posted to their elements and only moved out upon request of the member.

I don't agree with Halifax Tar one single bit. The reason is that the Purple trades don't belong to anyone but their BRANCH. That's why the CSS trades all wear BRANCH insignia NOT element insignia. They are a clerk, doc, nurse, medtech, PSEL, PAFF, MP etc etc etc FIRST. Their uniform is SECONDARY. Want to be in the Navy? Join a hard sea trade. You can't have the best of both worlds.

 

[Monsoon]

I don't agree with Halifax Tar one single bit. The reason is that the Purple trades don't belong to anyone but their BRANCH. That's why the CSS trades all wear BRANCH insignia NOT element insignia. They are a clerk, doc, nurse, medtech, PSEL, PAFF, MP etc etc etc FIRST. Their uniform is SECONDARY. Want to be in the Navy? Join a hard sea trade. You can't have the best of both worlds.

So what is the dress of the day for people in the "purple" trades? According to VCDS, it's NCDs if you've opted for the Navy DEU. Want to be in the Army? Join one of the Combat Arms... or opt for the Army DEU when you join. But no one who decided to wear the Navy DEU should be surprised that they have to wear the uniform they chose.

 

[PuckChaser]

To further increase recruiting potential, Navy pers will now be required to sell their cars, and can only get to work using bass boats.

 

[FDO]

A couple of comments first I would like to know what ASU's are getting FDA? My wife works at ASU Toronto and doesn't get it! She was told she would HAVE to wear CADPAT when she got here because ASU Toronto was an "Operational Unit" just no FDA. Now she's a happy camper or will be when she digs her NCDs out of the bottom of the closet and shakes out the wrinkles.

Also Mabe if the sailors get back to wearing something more fitting with their chosen element you'd see more sailors inland. The next problem we have is getting the NCDs inland. I have had an order in for 3 months for NCDs. I got a message from the Binrats yesterday saying that all the NCDs have gone out west for the Olympics so I'll have to wait a little longer.

It's going to be shock to some of the purple trade folks when they actually have to put on NCDs for the first time. I know a couple here in TO that have been "Navy" for several years and never seen saltwater. It's going to be fun. I know how much CADPAT people HATE having to iron!

 

[Neill McKay]

I don't agree with Halifax Tar one single bit. The reason is that the Purple trades don't belong to anyone but their BRANCH. That's why the CSS trades all wear BRANCH insignia NOT element insignia.

There is no such thing as element insignia.  All CF members wear branch (or regimental) insignia.  (Hard sea trades wear the Naval Operations Branch cap badge, e.g.)

They are a clerk, doc, nurse, medtech, PSEL, PAFF, MP etc etc etc FIRST. Their uniform is SECONDARY.

I suppose that's a matter of opinion, but the usual rhetoric is that one is a sailor (or soldier) first, tradesman second, regardless of where one serves.

 

[medaid]

There is no such thing as element insignia.  All CF members wear branch (or regimental) insignia.  (Hard sea trades wear the Naval Operations Branch cap badge, e.g.)

So I guess you just said what I said again? My point was that there is no such thing as element accouterments. As purple is purple.

 

[CountDC]

ok two ways to go with this

a fourth uniform for the purple trades!!  Maybe Donnie Osmond will design it.

Go back to the old way of navy scribe, combat arms clerk and air force secretary.

Personnally I think it is about time they did this.  Absolutely no reason that a member of the Navy can not wear NCDs for their regular work day and CADPAT when needed.  Ranges - CADPAT is not needed, I have worn my NCDs everytime.  As for posting inland - if all the "sailors" were to wear NCDs instead of CADPAT you may actually find there are more than you realize.  Black Beret does not make one stand out as navy if wearing CADPAT.

Now if I could just convince them to let the NCR wear ballcaps I would be really happy.

 

[medaid]

Funny we're only hearing from those who've got such a BIG problem with wearing CADPAT. I've met more then my share of sailors who LOVE wearing CADPAT. Stating that they don't have to iron the damn things, it's good to go even if it's a little dirty, and feels that their OD with BLACK threaded accouterments, along with their BLACK t-shrits, BLACK berets, and a generally happy outlook makes them stand out amongst their Army peers.

I personally think ironing NCDs have got to be the dumbest thing ever, and yes I wear NCDs... and I think they're of the poorest design. But that's another thread all together.

I will reiterate that purples do not belong to the element, they belong to their BRANCH! I HIGHLY doubt that they'll EVER split up the BRANCHES into their individual elements again. It's pointless and we gain nothing from it, other then more ignorance from people in the same MOC who've never done anything their peers have.

Its a freaking work dress. I don't hear this much griping from Army/Air Force pers in NCDs  : maybe they're just more savvy at adaptation and change then the Naval element and understands that despite being Army/Air Force by uniform, they're their MOC first.

 

[Monsoon]

I will reiterate that purples do not belong to the element, they belong to their BRANCH! I HIGHLY doubt that they'll EVER split up the BRANCHES into their individual elements again. It's pointless and we gain nothing from it, other then more ignorance from people in the same MOC who've never done anything their peers have.

Its a freaking work dress. I don't hear this much griping from Army/Air Force pers in NCDs  : maybe they're just more savvy at adaptation and change then the Naval element and understands that despite being Army/Air Force by uniform, they're their MOC first.

The purple branches are "owned" by CMP. CMP has decided that the uniform for people within his L1 is the DEU that they chose when they joined the CF. Why would the work dress of people in the purple trades would be anything other than the work dress of their DEU? Specific operational requirements notwithstanding, of course - but I don't buy that a militia brigade HQ is an "operational" unit by mere virtue of some mindset that they may wish to encourage.

While some purple folk may be upset that they had to join the Navy to get their chosen MOS, most people picked the Navy DEU because they wanted to identify with the Navy, and will be happy to wear the Navy combat dress. This is nothing but good news for this silent majority.

 

[dapaterson]

Of course, most should be wearing DEUs (short sleeve) vice NCD or CADPAT; the dot COMs and Land Staff in Ottawa are the worst.

NCD and CADPAT are significantly more expensive than DEU, and look less absurd as office wear.  Of course, the hard-luck staff would have to start taking pride in their appearance, buy and iron and some shoe polish, but that's a small price to pay.

(And nothing looks as bad as CADPAT bursting at the seams)

 

[McG]

My solution to the whole navy visibility thing would be that every L1 and L2 staff or HQ should be in DEU.  For the Army, that mean the Bdes & CTC would be in combats but that LFDTS & the area HQs would be DEU.

Operational clothing would be dictated by the unit one is attached to.  Therefore, Army guys required to wear operational clothing at a MARCOM unit in Halifax would be in NCDs.  Sailors required to wear operational clothing in an Air Command uniform in Cold Lake would wear the Air Force Cadpat. Etc.

Operational clothing is not about showing one's environment's flag.  The clothing exists to fit an operational function.  Wearing the clothing in an environment other than what we bought it for could result in risk to operations (FOD from uniforms not designed for an airfield), risk to personnel safety (static electricity or burns in uniforms not designed to protect for these), higher costs (as uniforms wear in places that extra durability was not designed), risk to personnel health (as boots not designed for marching chew apart feet), and so on.  If none of this is a concern to you, then you might be in a job that could be wearing DEU instead. 

 

[Monsoon]

Operational clothing would be dictated by the unit one is attached to.

The tricky part is when you get to the "purple" units - SJS, 4 HSvcGp HQ, or 3 CSG, for instance. The dress would have to be mix-and-match because the unit is inherently joint.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Black Beret does not make one stand out as navy if wearing CADPAT.

Especially when that beret properly, and traditionally, belongs to the Armoured Corps :

Now if I could just convince them to let the NCR wear ballcaps I would be really happy.

So would us tankers.

 

[McG]

The tricky part is when you get to the "purple" units - SJS, 4 HSvcGp HQ, or 3 CSG, for instance. The dress would have to be mix-and-match because the unit is inherently joint.

SJS= L1 HQ  - Not an issue here as they can all be in DEU.
4 H Svc Gp - Do these pers not wear "traditional" hospital clothing when operating within the clinics?  Those working behind desks can then switch to DEU. 

Yes, there will be a few odd-ball units (like the supply depots) which are purple yet require a working dress.  If one wants to set a policy that in these few locations a person will wear the working dress of their environment, then fine.  However, for the most part, a unit fits within (and operates within) a specific environment and that unit should therefore be wearing the clothing designed for that environment.

 

[armyvern]

Especially when that beret properly, and traditionally, belongs to the Armoured Corps :

So would us tankers.

So it does; I fully agree with you on that point - I'm still amazed that the black beret was ever authorized to be worn by those of the naval enviornment as are many tankers that I know.

I can though, despite the protestations of some, still distinguish (quite easily) between soldiers, sailors and airmen/airwomen wearing olive drab, blue or black t-shirts ... they are quite obviously different in colour and are actually very conducive to figuring out who is "what" ... as are the slip-ons, nametapes etc etc.

It just seems to me that the only purple trades that are "really" purple are the Army and AF sporting DEU ones ... being that we wear and continue to wear NCDs when posted aboard ships etc ... apparently, it's not reciprocal.

For the poster who said Donny Osmond could design us purple folks a uniform (how's that for respecting someone's uniform/Branch??) ... It's really a quite simple problem to solve - given that your sailor Sup Tech is a Logistician who is and will continue to be subject to posting to any of the three enviornments "as part and parecl of the job description he voluntarily enrolled into the CF under" ... simply do the same for us purple folk as we do for band members ...

Issue us all three. We all get a "home" enviornment DEU to wear for those times when we're posted with HQs or 3rd line Depots etc; and, when we get posted to a Naval establishment, or Air, or Land - we get the uniform of that particular enviornment to wear for the duration of our employment there only while we are employed there ... as they do NOT "own" us (just as neither the LF, nor the AF, nor the Navy "owns" the CFSS system program so can not direct any changes to it) - we are purple. It really is that simple. We retain the other DEUs/Op dress for career just in case we do 2 tours with the navy etc.

 

[vonGarvin]

Some might say the "red headed step child."  ;D

Isn't it "kick a Ginger" day?  >

 

[armyvern]

A history lesson ...

http://www.dragoons.ca/historicalsummary.html

These 'guys' existed long before the first "tank" was introduced in Canada ... I believe that the tankers of the Essex Regiment were the 1st to commence wearing the black beret circa '36 - and they chose the black beret because it was the colour of the beret worn by the Royal Tank Corps of the British Army ... it had nothing to do with sailors manning tanks during WW1 - at which time sailors didn't wear berets, nor did Armoured folk wear black berets.

I'm curious as to how you link the authorization to wear black berets by Naval pers (which occured in the 1990s and long after the Armoured Corps had been granted authority for such headdress) to such?  A "traditional" head-dress of the Navy?

Perhaps, it was correct earlier, & a point I'll agree on - a return to the days of the tradtional naval square-rigs/head-dress (the round cap, sans peak) would bring even greater "visibility" to the Cdn Navy and would most certainly be in keeping with actual Naval traditions. I liked those hats, and the square rig upon the men were defintely eye-catching.

 

[armyvern]

Isn't it "kick a Ginger" day?  >

Nah, that was last Friday ( ), but I'm willing to be your red-headed stepchild.  ;D

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I know some of the foregoing was said in jest, however the black beret belongs to both the Navy and Armoured Corps. During WWI tanks were originally crewed by Naval Gunners and stokers (Churchill was responsible for the wpn's development and was 1st Sea Lord). When the tank corps was finally formed, the black head dress worn during the war was continued as the beret.

I know there are fables about Belgian school girls and other such nonsense, but history is quite clear that the Armoured Corps is a child of the Navy.

Some might say the "red headed step child."  ;D


Edited for format.

That is a pretty tenuous stretch. The black beret, as stated, was originally brought into use, in Canada (1937), by the Essex Regiment (Tank), now the Windsor Regiment (RCAC) and has absoulutely nothing to do with the navy. Being the first newly formed tank regiment, it did not have a precursor headress like the ones formed from reroled infantry units. As such, they were allowed to pick their own headress and chose that of the Royal Tank Regiment. An Army unit.

 

[tango22a]

Army Vern:

BZ!! You are 100% correct about the black Beret, Having been a member of The Essex Regiment (Tank)'s successor The Windsor Regiment (RCAC), thank you very much!

Cheers,


tango22a