Sailors to Wear CADPAT?

[cobbler]

I would think that navy pers would WANT to have something that would serve as camouflage if/when their ship is sunk and they have to make it to shore, and then the CADPAT would help them blend in to the local surroundings. I guess that since it hasn't happened to Canadian sailors (in wartime) for about 60 years, little thought goes into that aspect. Maybe it should. Operational clothing should be more about PERFORMANCE and less about FASHION (or history). Remember when the army used to wear red jackets and hats with plumes? Yeah, that was over 100 years ago. We let that one go after we realized that warfare changed. You might want to do the same. Save the snazzy threads for shore leave.

Al

That is a very unlikely scenario, a more likely one would be trying not to be seen by an enemy bird flying above you trying to kill off survivors.
But again, unlikely.

However, on to performance, just how would big smears of spilt grey paint look on CADPAT?

The RAN uses storm grey coveralls to match its storm grey ships, so when paint is spilt, it doesnt matter at all. And they are actually designed for shipboard work, duties and equipment.

Sailors aren't soldiers and that extends well past the symbol of what one should wear, and more into the needs of what one should wear.

 

[GO!!!]

..but it's better than lookin' like a pongo.

Ah yes, the same person who was miffed at the possibility that he may be prohibited from wearing a 1500$ cape twice a year whist in uniform is knocking the army's dress? Will you also seek permission to wear a tricorn and plume?

In my mind, practicality and function trump form and tradition 10 times out of 10, it is how you fight that counts, and saving money on environmental dress is definitely something that helps us fight better.

The army dropped the black and tans many years ago for the simple reason that they cost too much and had little purpose. Work dress went along with them, in favour of Combats. Now we have two states of dress. Field/garrison, and dress, for the operational units. (I'm told some HQs demand the wear of sweaters, button down t-shirts, low shoes etc) I'm sure this has saved millions over the years, and all because the pointy moustache crowd blustering over tradition was ignored.

I also feel compelled to point out, in response to an earlier post, that the CF has never, once in my entire career shelled out for ANYTHING with my regimental capbadge, crest or cipher. We have to buy our own capbadges, DEU accoutrements, PT strip etc. So the idea that the army would jealously protect it's own traditional dress is false - it stopped a looong time ago, and shifted that responsibility (and cost)onto the shoulders of the soldiers.

 

[paracowboy]

I also feel compelled to point out, in response to an earlier post, that the CF has never, once in my entire career shelled out for ANYTHING with my regimental capbadge, crest or cipher. We have to buy our own capbadges, DEU accoutrements, PT strip etc. So the idea that the army would jealously protect it's own traditional dress is false - it stopped a looong time ago, and shifted that responsibility (and cost)onto the shoulders of the soldiers.

not the Army, the Patricia's. In The RCR, I received all of that when I graduated Battle School. It may have come out of Regimental dues, but I don't believe so.

 

[navymich]

When you're getting dressed to fight a fire onboard, you pull off your NCD jacket prior to putting on your bunker gear and chemox.  Under your jacket, you still have on your NCD shirt, sleeves down, to offer a layer of protection.  What do you do in combats?  A pain in the butt I would think to get the jacket off, and besides, that would only leave you with a tshirt for next-to-skin protection.  Not to mention pulling your socks out from underneathed your bloused pants to be tucked in.

As for the whole dress regs discussion too, I have yet to wear my beret with my salt and peppers.  Yes, it would be much more convenient then my boler (god that "cowboy" hat is a pain to pack), but it takes away completely from the dress.  As well, the whole girls hairstyle thing drives me batty too.  In my NCDs only, will you ever see me in a braid.  Any other dress, it is pulled up.  I am sure you gents would agree wholeheartedly how awful it looks out on parade to see the girls looking like Pippi Longstockings.

 

[SeaDog]

Good point on the Bunker gear, Navymich.  For clarification for army types, Bunker gear is a bulky set of coveralls, jacket and rubber boots similar to what civilian fire-fighters wear.  When a ship goes to action stations you have mere minutes to report to your station, kick your boots off, rip your jacket off don your Bunker gear, strap on and activate your breathing apparatus and make ready to fight the fire.  Definitely not real practical with army combats and yet another reason why navies around the world have designed and evolved their ship-board naval dress after years of experience and lessons learned.  I'm not real sure why our brothers and sisters in the army are so eager to get us into army combats, but as I have already stated, different jobs require different kit. I would not suggest to the army that they adopt equipment or uniforms that are ill-suited to the tasks they must accomplish.  Why then would you army types demand that of us?  As professionals in the brotherhood of arms I would expect that you would, if anything, support competent decisions which heighten the effectiveness of every branch of our military...sometimes in the face of what the accountants in Ottawa would like.

 

[old medic]

I also feel compelled to point out, in response to an earlier post, that the CF has never, once in my entire career shelled out for ANYTHING with my regimental capbadge, crest or cipher. We have to buy our own capbadges, DEU accoutrements, PT strip etc. So the idea that the army would jealously protect it's own traditional dress is false - it stopped a looong time ago, and shifted that responsibility (and cost)onto the shoulders of the soldiers.

Odd, I've never had to do that. 

The more I read that GO!!!, The more it sounds like PPCLI wanted to protect it's traditions by having you buy all that,
so why attack any other service or branch for doing the same? Why not just save money by retiring all the infantry
units and have everyone wear a cornflake and some sort of pale green outfit?

Does everybody miss 1969 that much?  Cadpat on a boat, (or anywhere in the Navy) is the most
absurd idea I've seen on this forum this year.

It was the past conservative government that corrected a major error and brought back the environmental
uniforms and an inkling of pride in one's service.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I also feel compelled to point out, in response to an earlier post, that the CF has never, once in my entire career shelled out for ANYTHING with my regimental capbadge, crest or cipher. We have to buy our own capbadges, DEU accoutrements, PT strip etc. So the idea that the army would jealously protect it's own traditional dress is false - it stopped a looong time ago, and shifted that responsibility (and cost)onto the shoulders of the soldiers.

It's always been my experience that initial issue of those DEU items and capbadge was from the Crown. Subsequent issue can be done on an exchange basis with QM. Extra issue can be purchased through Clothing Stores or through your Regt'l kit shop. Maybe Vern can clarify. The kit shop items are normally of a better quality anyway.
PT strip on the other hand is no more than a Regt'l quiff and a way to bolster funds through the kit shop by mandating that dress.

 

[Gino]

Ah yes, the same person who was miffed at the possibility that he may be prohibited from wearing a 1500$ cape twice a year whist in uniform is knocking the army's dress? Will you also seek permission to wear a tricorn and plume?

In my mind, practicality and function trump form and tradition 10 times out of 10, it is how you fight that counts, and saving money on environmental dress is definitely something that helps us fight better.

The army dropped the black and tans many years ago for the simple reason that they cost too much and had little purpose. Work dress went along with them, in favour of Combats. Now we have two states of dress. Field/garrison, and dress, for the operational units. (I'm told some HQs demand the wear of sweaters, button down t-shirts, low shoes etc) I'm sure this has saved millions over the years, and all because the pointy moustache crowd blustering over tradition was ignored.

I also feel compelled to point out, in response to an earlier post, that the CF has never, once in my entire career shelled out for ANYTHING with my regimental capbadge, crest or cipher. We have to buy our own capbadges, DEU accoutrements, PT strip etc. So the idea that the army would jealously protect it's own traditional dress is false - it stopped a looong time ago, and shifted that responsibility (and cost)onto the shoulders of the soldiers.

Hey, let's not get too testy.  It wasn't the "pongo" bit was it?  I forgot to use a smilie.

At any rate, when we're talking ceremonial dress, I don't think functionality is a huge issue.  If the certain regiments can continue to wear scarlets and bearskins, I don't you can't really fault those who would like to wear a bloat cloak with mess dress, at their own expense I might add.  I think we underestimate the value of tradition to military and naval forces at our peril.

IMHO, the bottom line is that CADPATs would be of minimal operational value to the Navy, and exactly how much money would be saved anyway?  I think that most sailors would rather look like that instead of like soldiers.  I'm sure you guys would be the first ones screaming if we tried to put you into naval uniforms, so you can perhaps understand our resistance to further assimilation.

 

[Good2Golf]

Methinks the Senior Service doth protest too much!  I think the Navy for all its tough talk about berets not being pusser and all (BTW, it's a Forage Cap, not peak cap ) it should hang its head in shame until it puts the ratings back in square rig!  To think that some believe NCD and 70's-style polyester Salt & Peppers are considered pusser by you guys is a sad comment!  Oh, the shame of it!  What would Lord Admiral Nelson say from his grave? 

I will happily wear CADPAT (then again there's an argument as to whether tac aviators are actually worthy of the oh so lofty Air Force moniker)...in fact, the more CADPAT the better!  Aside from that fancy little line up along the edge of the boat and wave your hat thingy you guys do (which I agree, needs some dapper looking threads, N1's are good for this), isn't function more important than fashion, thus FR-clothing should be the order of the day, whether it be grungy-blue and black or relish pattern?  ;D

As GO!!! and Paracowboy said, we're all getting assimilated...welcome to the Jarmy, my brethren in Her Majesty's Senior Service!  ;D

Hmmm...let's see...

Army in CADPAT.  Check.

Air Force (some of us, anyway) getting in to CADPAT.  Check.

Navy...only a matter of time...fight if you will but assimilation into the Jarmy will give centuries of fine tradition a good run for its money!  >

Cheers,
Duey

(Pics below of upcoming AF NOMEX CADPAT flying gear...we can get a velcro flap to attach as camo-square rig if you'd like...  ;D )

 

[paracowboy]

As GO!!! and Paracowboy said, we're all getting assimilated...

yeah, but I'm agin' it!

 

[NavComm]

hmmm let's see... I wore cadpat at bmq, my deu's for grad, my ncd's at my unit and 2 days in Halifax, olive drab for 3 weeks at the present job until we all switched to cadpat....if I counted the days I've been in the navy and how many of them I wore cadpat vs. ncd's or deu's, I'd guess about 80% of the time I've been in cadpat. My roommate loves wearing cadpat, I prefer my ncd's. We're just lowly ordinary seaman though, so the GAF factor about what we like or don't like is pretty much non-existant :-\ 

 

[old medic]

Just to address the few who have asked about cost,  Nomex costs 75 to 100% more than
standard materials, as it is a patented and trademark protected material.
Outfitting the navy with Cadpat Nomex would mean a coresponding increase in the clothing budget.

 

[paracowboy]

Just to address the few who have asked about cost,  Nomex costs 75 to 100% more than standard materials, as it is a patented and trademark protected material. so outfitting the whole Navy would mean a coresponding increase in the clothing budget.

so, I'm assuming that putting the CADPAT pattern onto it would cause the prices to go higher?

Since these pers require Nomex, and don't require CADPAT, in their daily duties aboard ship why add the extra expense? And as for not giving them Nomex, that is, to me, unacceptable. The extra cost is worth it in terms of our Sailors' welfare. But, if we can keep expenditure down by not making them wear CADPAT, and can keep it in the colours now, let's do it.

 

[old medic]

Well said Paracowboy.

I can only guess that putting a trademarked pattern (CADPAT) onto a trademarked
cloth (Nomex :  http://www2.dupont.com/Personal_Protection/en_US/products/nomexind/nomex_industrial_faq.html#1QD )
would drive the cost per uniform through the roof.

 

[NavComm]

Are you one of the eliteninjasnipers or a commisionaire in training?

ha ha neither, just a lowly GD

 

[SeaDog]

Well, paracowboy and old medic, I must say it is refreshing to hear a little common sense on this subject...especially from professionals in other branches.
As for assimilation into the "jarmy", Duey...we fought hard the last time and it seems we fared better than most .  Haven't seen many Wing Commanders and Group Captains walking around lately, but last I checked I still work for a Lieutenant Commander.  I mean, geez, in the end we even got you guys saluting the proper, palm down, way! ;D

 

[Good2Golf]

Well, paracowboy and old medic, I must say it is refreshing to hear a little common sense on this subject...especially from professionals in other branches.
As for assimilation into the "jarmy", Duey...we fought hard the last time and it seems we fared better than most .  Haven't seen many Wing Commanders and Group Captains walking around lately, but last I checked I still work for a Lieutenant Commander.  I mean, geez, in the end we even got you guys saluting the proper, palm down, way! ;D

SeaDog, that reminds me of "The Glove", a.k.a. Lt(N) Bill GLover...who used to regail us Roadents with the finest of flourishing, high-elbowed, palm-down Naval salutes I'd ever seen... ...of course accompanied with a jaunty, nautical..."Morning!"  (at any time of the day )

Cheers,
Duey

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

SeaDog, that reminds me of "The Glove", a.k.a. Lt(N) Bill Glover...who used to regail us Roadents with the finest of flourishing, high-elbowed, palm-down Naval salutes I'd ever seen... ...of course accompanied with a jaunty, nautical..."Morning!"  (at any time of the day )

Cheers,
Duey

Wow Bill Glover there's a blast from the past! He was Course Lieut on my MARS MQC course. We nicknamed him "the Prairie Kipper" because he spoke with an English accent but was from somewhere in Saskatchewan...used to be a favorite pastime of old RCN types who aped the Brits...ha ha. He was a good instructor though.

This whole CADPAT conversation is also going on in the upper echelons I'm told and as some have pointed out the whole move toward being "the Jarmy" is driving a lot of it. They want us to all look the same.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and they'll realize that there is no requirement for "you can't see me" suits on board a ship at sea and every requirement for practical comfortable stuff.
I like the American stuff....Ratings in denim (I take it has a fire retardant quality to it) and Officers and chiefs are in tans...what they call "Utilities." You really need something comfortable but easily used in an emergency sit as well.

By the way I've noticed a fair number of folks on here referring to our warships as "boats." Unless it's a submarine or a Ferry it is referred to as a ship. The boat is the little thing you hoist on board your ship!

 

[navymich]

Good old William Glover.  He was one of my CO's at my home reserve unit.  I was working out of trade as a clerk in ship's office and couldn't do anything right for trying.  Unfortunately, I had 3 things against me: female, reserve and a jr. rank.  That was back in the late 90's and then we cheered up with his departure to Ottawa.

By the way I've noticed a fair number of folks on here referring to our warships as "boats." Unless it's a submarine or a Ferry it is referred to as a ship. The boat is the little thing you hoist on board your ship!

We affectionately call the MCDV's "boats" too, because of the size of them.  Yes, I know, incorrect as we do have boats onboard them....

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

It would seem that under the Jarmy concept...the Navy and the Air Force are primarily taxi drivers for the army anyway....so I suppose it makes sense in the minds of the NDHQ braintrust to put us all in CADPAT.

Who was dissing tricorn hats a while ago? I used to know a ship's CO who had an old hat like Nelson's for when he was coming alongside. He called it his docking cap...and it was for good luck. I remember him stomping on it once when he pouched his approach and hit the jetty...ha ha....he was as crazy as a loon!!

In the days of the old green suit we used to really confuse our allies when they saw us all in green. Maybe that's the strategy...keep em guessing. >