Second Language Training ( SLT )

[Quag]

I'm confused.  Being bilingual is a requirement for officers that wish to be Major and above.  How can they cut this out if it is a requirement?

 

[mudrecceman]

I'm confused.  Being bilingual is a requirement for officers that wish to be Major and above.  How can they cut this out if it is a requirement?

By adding it later in your career, if you are being prep'd for promotion to Maj.

The thought is if you get your profile while a 2Lt...how much of it do you remember, if you haven't been posted to a french unit, come time for your Majors? 

Another factor, apparantly, is they want to get people thru their actual MOC training first.  Makes sense, actually.  The CF could pump all that training, groceries and time into you, where you get your profile which is good across the Federal government, and then fail out of say CAP or something like that...best bang for the tax payers buck?  IMO, no.

So its not "cut out" it is "shuffled down the career path".

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

My troop commander I guess you would call him (he's a jimmy) just did his, doing the 2 hrs aday thing in the lab here in Esq and he's a Capt

 

[Quag]

By adding it later in your career, if you are being prep'd for promotion to Maj.

The thought is if you get your profile while a 2Lt...how much of it do you remember, if you haven't been posted to a french unit, come time for your Majors? 

Another factor, apparantly, is they want to get people thru their actual MOC training first.  Makes sense, actually.  The CF could pump all that training, groceries and time into you, where you get your profile which is good across the Federal government, and then fail out of say CAP or something like that...best bang for the tax payers buck?  IMO, no.

So its not "cut out" it is "shuffled down the career path".

Seen.  For once, the CF actually makes sense ;D.  This could save alot of money for those that decide to be "career Captains" and those that decide to VR or are released before Major.

 

[mudrecceman]

Roger, and bear in mind, this is just what the current SLTs were told the "thought process" was.  They were also told they were the last batch "on mass" to do SLT, so its appears that after IAP/BOTP, some will go, some won't, depending on the needs of their MOC and the CF.

But I agree, it makes sense.  Hence, why it probably won't happen.  ;D

 

[sigpig]

Another factor, apparantly, is they want to get people thru their actual MOC training first.  Makes sense, actually.  The CF could pump all that training, groceries and time into you, where you get your profile which is good across the Federal government, and then fail out of say CAP or something like that...best bang for the tax payers buck?  IMO, no.

When they started this, some time after I went a year straight of phase training, I wondered how they could justify sending all those people from botc to language trg when it's known that many classifications have a fairly high failure rate. I thought they seemed to be giving a lot of free second language training - mostly french for anglo types, to people who would become civies, thus wasting a lot of time and money.

Also, as noted, people who took french trg early in their careers and rarely, if ever, used it again, will lose it. Lots of money and effort wasted in an effort to politically keep a certain province happy.

 

[Quag]

Also, as noted, people who took french trg early in their careers and rarely, if ever, used it again, will lose it. Lots of money and effort wasted in an effort to politically keep a certain province happy.

While I sense the sarcasm in your tone, we are still a bilingual COUNTRY, and as being such, many workerse of the public service should be required to speak both official languages.

 

[George Wallace]

While I sense the sarcasm in your tone, we are still a bilingual COUNTRY, and as being such, many workerse of the public service should be required to speak both official languages.

Not to set off any backlash, but you are wrong.  Many workers of the Public Service do not have to deal with the Pubic in both languages.  Only in the National Capital Region will you find many Civil Servants who have to deal with the public in both Official Languages.  These services are not offered in Quebec.  It is not really required much in the Western provinces.  It is hardly required in most of the Atlantic provinces.  The fact is that the vast majority of Public Service workers have no contact with the Public at all. 

Take the large number of IT personnel in the Public Service.  Their language (Programming Languages) is English.  Why are they forced to become Bilingual in order that their job can be redesignated as a "Bilingual Position" and they will be required to be tested annually for their language proficiency in French?  If they pass in order for the Government to declare their position "Bilingual Essential", and then fail the Language Test in a following year, they are laid off.  Does this seem fair and just?  I think not.  It is another visual case of catering to a very vocal and spoiled minority and is the cause of much consternation in the Federal, Provincial and Municipal Civil Services.  It, if you want to wear a tinfoil hat, equates to the Francofication of Canada.  And people wonder why our Nation is so screwed up in the way it is governed and managed.

 

[sigpig]

It is not really required much in the Western provinces.  It is hardly required in most of the Atlantic provinces.

I grew up in Halifax and then moved to Calgary  .  I did well in my high school french courses and scored superior on the mlat, but again, living in the east then the west I had no need for french whatsoever and totally lost the little I had.

I don't mean to bash the french language or Quebecers, but I do believe the current policy is wasteful and not needed. As an officer, I never met a francophone in the forces who couldn't at least function minimally in english. For a french speaker to expect to function in the rest of Canada, some knowledge of english is essential. Anglophones, at least in my experience, can function quite well in all of Canada except Quebec, the Ottawa region, and some small places in NB 

Again, don't mean to bash, just to state what I think are the realities. We could find a lot of better uses for all the money that gets poured into the sacred cow of bilingualism.

 

[Quag]

I don't think that I am as wrong as you might think.  Look at the density of public service workers in the NCR and you will see that it makes up a significant amount of the employed public service workers.

Furthur, a 2002 study of public service employees found that 92 percent of public service employees agree that it is important for them to serve the public in both official languages.

[/quote]

Only in the National Capital Region will you find many Civil Servants who have to deal with the public in both Official Languages.  These services are not offered in Quebec.  It is not really required much in the Western provinces.  It is hardly required in most of the Atlantic provinces.  The fact is that the vast majority of Public Service workers have no contact with the Public at all. 

Well, Halifax, Saint John, Quebec, Sherbrooke, Montreal, Oshawa, Toronto, Hamilton, St. Catharines-Niagara, Kitchener, Windsor, Sudbury, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver are just some of the many "metropolis" areas that are REQUIRED to offer bilingual services.  That covers the Atlantic and the West I'd say.

George, I understand where your sentiment lies, and especially in cases such as the one you give about he IT specialist, but I do not feel that this should waive the fact that our country needs to be bilingual.

 

[muffin]

Take the large number of IT personnel in the Public Service.  Their language (Programming Languages) is English.  Why are they forced to become Bilingual in order that their job can be redesignated as a "Bilingual Position" and they will be required to be tested annually for their language proficiency in French?  If they pass in order for the Government to declare their position "Bilingual Essential", and then fail the Language Test in a following year, they are laid off.  Does this seem fair and just?  I think not.  It is another visual case of catering to a very vocal and spoiled minority and is the cause of much consternation in the Federal, Provincial and Municipal Civil Services.  It, if you want to wear a tinfoil hat, equates to the Francofication of Canada.  And people wonder why our Nation is so screwed up in the way it is governed and managed.

I am in a PS IT position and all the CS positions here are English Essential - only once you hit the senior levels (CS3, CS4) you may be required to work with French because you are dealing more outside your "trade" - also  anyone who works with the web has to know french because Treasury Board policy states that all sites must be in both languages. In my experience, regardless of the province,  any public service job that requires interaction with the public (and that may not mean the general public - in my case the public is military members) is bilingual.

There is one point I want to clarify her ref the language testing - we do not retest every year. You only have to pass the test once when you compete for the possition and then again if you go to another position. Once you have been deemed to meet the requirements of the job you cannot be "fired" for losing those requried skills.

Just about the only way to get rid of a Public Service Employee (who isn't on probation) is to declare his/her position redundant.

Muffin

 

[George Wallace]

Well, Halifax, Saint John, Quebec, Sherbrooke, Montreal, Oshawa, Toronto, Hamilton, St. Catharines-Niagara, Kitchener, Windsor, Sudbury, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver are just some of the many "metropolis" areas that are REQUIRED to offer bilingual services.  That covers the Atlantic and the West I'd say.

I think "REQUIRED" is a key word here.  Not really necessary, but forced upon them by legislated "Official Bilingualism".  

This is a policy that I see as a dismal failure and the downfall of this Nation.  Forcing people to do things is not right.  Forcing the majority do things and leaving a minority to get away with doing nothing is discrimination.  

I believe that it is a good thing for people to become bilingual, or even better, multilingual.  I do not agree with "enforced policies" to do so.  It disenfranchises many very qualified and competent people from positions that place more emphasis on language (specifically French in the majority of cases) than on merit.  

In the end it is a form of reverse discrimination and a great tax on the revenues required to run this country.  (Have you ever looked at the results of the "Translation Business" in this country: the costs of translation, the costs of printing 2 to 3 times more pages in publications; the costs of correcting incorrectly translated terminology; the costs of a whole bureaucracy with only one function, of which they are not proficient at; and of course patronage?)

Muffin

In NCR, CS positions are currently English Essential, but there is a movement afoot to gradually change them to Bilingual positions, once the person holding that position has been language tested and a Bilingual Profile established.  Unless you have scored an Exempt on your language profile, you will be retested every couple of years.  Even in the CF, your language profile is only supposed to be good for five years. 

 

[armyvern]

Well, Halifax, Saint John, Quebec, Sherbrooke, Montreal, Oshawa, Toronto, Hamilton, St. Catharines-Niagara, Kitchener, Windsor, Sudbury, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver are just some of the many "metropolis" areas that are REQUIRED to offer bilingual services.  That covers the Atlantic and the West I'd say.

Yes, here in New Brunswick everything from Municipal, Provincial, to Federal, right down to the walk-in clinics are required to be able to provide service in both official languages. New Brunswick is still, as far as I can recall, the only officially bilingual Province in the country.

The mother tongues of the NB population mandate this requirement...everywhere you would go; not just the big 'metropolis'.

 

[GAP]

I think you will find Manitoba is also...it has a large francophone community.

 

[Jammer]

"You're wit da Van Doos now!!!
"Dis is a french only net!!!"
They said at the PRT........

 

[Quag]

Once again, this is just my opinion.

But given the obvious fact that our country is much more bilingual than you might have thought George (ref your comment about the Atlantic and Western areas of Canada), don't you think it is important to make it REQUIRED for government services to be in both official languages. 

The only way I see around this issue, is to remove French as one of our official languages...and I cannot see that ever happening).  Much of our heritage and history in Canada is owed to France and French colonies (and I know other European settlers, the British etc...)

 

[Zoomie]

This new policy will most likely only affect the incoming anglo students - francophone Officer's will still be required to have a sufficiently high English profile.  All professional Airforce courses are only taught in English.

 

[vigillis]

Being in SQFT (that's LFQA for the rest of you) I have seen many a soldier leave because their posting options were quite limited.  In fact I know of many people who have spent their last 17 years based out of Valcatraz.  Not because they wanted to, but because they could not get SLT, nor posted to an Anglo unit.  A soldier from a small Quebec village wants to see the world and Canada just as much as anyone one else, but no English no choice. 

I see SLT as a possible ASD service or educational option for the lower rank levels.  Spr Bloggins signs up for his SLT or any other operational language course I might add, passes the Fed gov't tests, gets reimbursed and his/her proficiency is noted on his/her pers file.  Those who wants to excel and learn do so, those who do not stay where they are.  Only those reaching a high enough rank gets put on the mandatory course, and here the crux, THEN GETS POSTED TO A UNIT OR AREA OF THE LANGUAGE THEY LEARNED!!!  The best way to keep up your language skills is to stay immersed in it.   

Before you start jumping up and down like organ grinder monkeys, screeching about the family situation and the such, there are more English speaking people here in the belle province than you might have thought, and there are job opportunities for Anglos, and not only in Montreal.  Those with young kids get them jumping off earlier and a child's ability to learn a second and third language is best while they are toddlers.  My friend's son speaks three language, and looks at me like I am an idiot when he asks me a question in German, he is now five years old.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

This new policy will most likely only affect the incoming anglo students - francophone Officer's will still be required to have a sufficiently high English profile.  All professional Airforce courses are only taught in English.

The likely reason for this is that all international airports and vessel traffic reporting is conducted in English (ITU Regulations) as it is the most widely spoken language in the world,

I will say that Anglo mbrs of the military (especially in the Navy) are at a disadvantage, prior to being loaded on a QL3 course (the majority here are taught in english only) the Franco mbrs go on a 10 week language course, I have been fighting for nearly 10 years to get a french course, no dice, so even if a "lower decker" wants a SLT profile they find themselves doing it on thier own time disadvantaging thier families

 

[George Wallace]

Once again, this is just my opinion.

But given the obvious fact that our country is much more bilingual than you might have thought George (ref your comment about the Atlantic and Western areas of Canada), don't you think it is important to make it REQUIRED for government services to be in both official languages. 

The only way I see around this issue, is to remove French as one of our official languages...and I cannot see that ever happening).  Much of our heritage and history in Canada is owed to France and French colonies (and I know other European settlers, the British etc...)

You are entitled to your opinion, and again I will say you are wrong again.  I have lived across this country and I know darn well that there are "French" communities spread across Canada.  I can also tell you that they all might as well all be from Louisiana, as there really is "NO" French in Canada.  It is not the French of France (even in Quebec).  All these small Franco communities spread across the land all have their little idiosyncrasies.  Have you spoken to a person from Edmundston, New Brunswick?  Is that French or English or neither?  French in St Bonniface is different again.  So is French in PEI, as is French in Saskatchewan, and Alberta.  What say you of the French in Vancouver.  I really don't care about your little game, when the French speaking population of this nation is greatly out numbered, not only by the English, but by Mandarine speaking citizens.  French is almost a "Dead Language".  ;D

On a more serious note, as was stated:  English is the Language of the Air.  English is the language of the Sea.  English is the language of Business.  English is the language of IT.  French arrogance, (not in Quebec, but in France) is trying to save their language from extinction, rather than accepting the creation of common new words to describe many of the advances in Science.  Just because it was Bill Gates and gang who came up with new words and terminology to discribe IT discoveries, doesn't mean that it is an English invasion of their language.  However, this opens up a whole new aspect of the conversation, and totally derails the topic of a New SLT Policy. 

A few very good answers have been given as to the waste of money on the SLT if members later leave the CF as Trg Failures in Career or Trades Crses.  This could well be the main reasoning behind any such changes.