SITREP ON MILITIA INFANTRY UNITS

[Fishbone Jones]

Sorry, was modifying my post.

 

[Haggis]

BUT, there are two Armies:  There is the Operational Army - the one you allude to above - then there is the CAREER Army.  ....
....It is our MHR policies at all levels that have done more harm to the CF than all of the recent bad guys  put together.

By blurring the distinction between the two.

It's because they all probably view the current missions the Army is engaged in as being highly desirable to go

12 years ago the Balkans was where a soldier wanted to be.  Now it's Afghanistan.  Where will it be in three years?

It's easy to pick sides and say GO!! And HitorMiss are evil but at least they have the strengths of their convictions.  .....  It appears that both of them are staying put.  You may not like their attitude or the manner in which they express themselves but they are hurt by the same system that hurts the reserves through so many little in justices.  I'm not saying get all brokeback mountain with them but at least acknowledge they have a point.

If you look back over the last dozen pages, I think you'll see that most posters have strength of convicitions.  They just don't voice them as forcefully as GO!!! .   Nobody should be denied the right to make a point, but this blamethrowing has to stop.  For each component to acknowledge the strenghts and limitations of the other is the only way OUR ARMY is going to maximize its potential.

The CSS world is not all "Green".  It's Purple (but you know that).  But we "Green" types automatically assume that if you deploy with the Army then you're part of the Army.  Hence my assertion that Army Reserve senior leaders (in all Army MOCs) have to have the operational expereince required to attain senior positions in the CF Reserve world in order to speak for the Army Reserve.

The Res guys get both the training and the Operational experience to take back to their unit, with the added benefit of non trade specific knowledge as well, and the CSS guys get to have some of the strain removed from their shoulders.

I had a Reserve Infantryman on my last tour who built and raced stock cars for a living.  He always wanted to go overeas and a winter tour was great for him.  So he volunteered, passed selection and pre-training and was deployed.  This fella could strip and assemble an Iltis as fast as any EME type (you should've seen him change tires!  ;D), but he was never "officially" allowed to do anything but a first parade.  

The problem with your idea is this:  In the time allocated for pre-depoloyment training, a techie can be trained to imitate and Infanteer for the most basic stuff (gate, convoy security, local protection) but an Infanteer cannot imitate a techie.  The gulf between the two is too great.

pbi:  As you said, you've seen and heard here and elsewhere that Cbt A soldiers want to deploy, be they Reg F or Reserve.  ADM (HR-Mil) is always conducting surveys on "stuff".  Maybe this is a good topic to focus on the Cbt A?

 

[GO!!!]

GO!!!!,

Understand why people were bitter, but, like you said " Ottawa has made it clear". To be pissed off at the reserves guys would like you being pissed off at all CWO's because of the stupid idea yours had about jump pay.

As I have learned, alot of eyes cover these threads.............for the record, it was not the CWO/RSM that came up with the cut the Jump pay proposition - that idea started at coy level, I am unsure of where it ended, only that it did.

As for saying now they had used up their leave, I'm sure the professional NCO's in the unit instructed and guided the men through a grievance process......

No, as the Sgts were deployed in other capacities, or sent to other parts of the Bn.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Sorry for whomever I mis-representated,. :-[.....but the message still works.

 

[little jim]

 Hence my assertion that Army Reserve senior leaders (in all Army MOCs) have to have the operational expereince required to attain senior positions in the CF Reserve world in order to speak for the Army Reserve.

rant on

I have a real issue with that statement.  Play along with me and follow my ‘logic’

Part of the strengths of the militia is the ties with the local community.  As people progress further up the ranks in the reserve they are also increasing in age and generally progress in responsibility in their other careers - their real life.  Nothing illustrates a devotion to duty more than someone taking their only two weeks of summer vacation to go on a Militia course.  A large number of senior reservists probably cannot afford the time from their lives to deploy on an overseas operation (tour plus work up).  Does that make them less of a leader?  I can think of several personal examples of outstanding reserve COs who are unable to deploy on overseas operations.  Yet one of the things that make them good is their willingness to learn and to teach their subordinates.  They request every bit of Lessons Learned from where they can - Brit, US Army, USMC (Centre for Small Wars is really good).  They do take the time to spend their two-week commitment at staff schools in various foreign countries all the time learning, then passing on.  You don’t need a tour to be a good reserve leader as long as you take your head out of the sand.

Plenty of reserve units have been damaged by former RegF officers and Senior NCOs releasing and joining up - I know of units where guys are looked highly upon as they have “Phase IV” or “2 tours” - this often passes over the officer or Senior NCO who has devoted all of his free time to the unit.  Which does the unit need more - some guy in his retirement posting or another who devotes all of his free time (of course there are exceptions to every case).

Does all senior reserve leadership need tours?  Sure it would be nice but then we might want to re-think how we give out rank in the reserves.  Why should I have to jump through having to learn french at night on my own time, complete all of my OPMEs and have enough political clout and more importantly be in the right place and the right time to command a company overseas when I could release, join the reserves, be promoted (I do have all the checks for that) just to get a tour as a sub-unit commander?  Oh wait don’t tell me their Advanced Classification Training is only 14 days where I have to take a 30 day Combined Arms Team Commanders Course - I must be slow.

Just because some reservist of Senior NCO or Officer rank is standing there with just a CD it might be time to consider that this person devoted 12 years of their time off to some dis-placed sense of duty.

Don’t get me started on all the clowns of both the RegF and PRes who have gone overseas....

rant off.

 

[Haggis]

I have a real issue with that statement.  Play along with me and follow my ‘logic’

If you look back at reply 135, you can follow my logic:

A Naval Reserve CPO2 can be (and is regularly) employed as coxswain (RSM) of a minor warship on real-world ops.  An Air Reserve MWO can be the Senior Aviation Maintenance Supervisor (SAMS) of an operational flying squadron.  How is an Army Reserve MWO expected to gain equitable operational experience if we deploy no higher than Pl level leadership?

Taking this one step further, operational experience is well known as a stepping  stone to senior leadership.  Given this scenario, the CF Reserve senior leadership could very well be Navy and Air Force dominated.  What effect would that have on the Army Reserve's existance?

I made this statement to counter GO!! and HitorMiss's arguments that Reserve senior leadership should not deploy, that Reserves who deploy should be no higher than Pl Comd level.  Given the amount of op experience the Naval and Air Reserve can get it's unfair and unrealistic to deny the Army Reserve similar opportunity. 

Operational experience is not yet a pre-requisite for senior appointments.  But if you look at the CF as a whole, this is the first time in recent memory when all our L1's and the CDS have recent operational "real world" experience.  What's to say that this mindset will not be transferred to the Reserves?  And why should the attitudes of GO!!!, HitorMiss (and others) deny senior Reservists the opportunity to gain operational experience?  This is short sighted.  That is my point.

Part of the strengths of the militia is the ties with the local community.  .......  You don’t need a tour to be a good reserve leader as long as you take your head out of the sand.

I agree 100% because most, if not all, Reserve senior leaders I know approach their service as a "hobby".  Maybe that's a bad word choice, but don't take this wrong.  People generally will put more far effort into a hobby that they enjoy and become highly proficient in it.  This differs from those who look at soldiering as a "job".  Soldiering is a profession and even part timers can be professionals, given enough effort on thier part and support from the "career peers".  It's important to note that many hobbyists have gone on to become renowned experts in their fields. 

So, with that in mind, I will retract my statement from reply 181.

 

[a_majoor]

What the American's feel about their reservists:

http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson022706.html

We hear that the U.S. Army is worn out — propped up by national guardsmen and reserves. Yet young enlistees differ. They claim instead that more mature reservists are a godsend for reconstruction efforts since so many back home were successful contractors, businessmen, teachers and mechanics. Complaints circulate about the weight, not the dearth, of body and truck armor. I saw hundreds of Humvees on the roads, but not one was unarmored. I shot AK-47s with professional Iraqi soldiers and felt far safer amid their professional live fire than back at home at the local municipal range.

In any job, you can only benefit from being able to tap into a wider and deeper pool of experience. There may be someone who has experienced something similar to the situation that is stumping you, and has discovered the way to solve the problem. (Even in high intensity war situations, 90% of the time is not being spent in a firefight....)

 

[little jim]

http://www.knightsbridgeuniversity.com/documents/armyreservestoronto24.doc

Firstly, it is naive and reckless to perpetuate the myth that a reservist, who trains for perhaps 39-45 days a year, can quickly stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the professional regular army soldier. Reservists need time to get trained up and prepared for deployment, but sadly, this policy was created to pinch pennies, and therefore that time is often denied. This was evident in the report that some British reservists were deployed to Iraq with less than one week of training. (27) Secondly, and correspondingly, the reality is that professional soldiers are often intensely insular, parochial, and filled with the most arrogant species of hubris about their unit and their battle reputation. In other words, they frequently distrust and often dislike "outsiders" and "amateurs", and reservists are the perfect target for their barbs, put-downs, and discrimination. Professional soldiers are, by and large, conservative and not especially sensitive to newcomers. In the initial stages of war, reservists and regulars are not equals, but this policy conveniently ignores that fact as much as possible. Unless governments begin to understand military culture and accept that war is costly, ugly, and unfair, the Total Force Army policy should be considered a failure in its very conception.

I love quotes off the internet. 

I’m going to use the terms “insular,” “parochial” and “arrogant species of hubris” in my PER this year.

 

[Haggis]

Even reading this quote in isolation, you can tell this fella has a bone to pick.  The entire piece is quite alarming and refreshing from a Canadian perspective. We don't treat our deployed Reservists that bad (but we used to...).

http://www.knightsbridgeuniversity.com/documents/armyreservestoronto24.doc
I’m going to use the terms “insular,” “parochial” and “arrogant species of hubris” in my PER this year.

Then you will be the exception to the rule in my experience.  I have seen Reg F members who fit this description.  I have seen Res F members, too.  Thankfully I can tally both on my digits.  They are the minority.

Why can't we all just get along??? :crybaby:

 

[the 48th regulator]

Even reading this quote in isolation, you can tell this fella has a bone to pick.  The entire piece is quite alarming and refreshing from a Canadian perspective. We don't treat our deployed Reservists that bad (but we used to...)

Well I remember those days, but gave as much as I took.

"hehehe remember yer just a rental!!"

"Yep, well I would rather be rented than owned!  " (<----smiley works better with a balmoral, topped with a red tourie)

But I would have to disagree with the statement Haggis, this thread proves that it still continues....

Maybe we should ask some of the junior ranks from the reserves.

dileas

tess

 

[Sig_Des]

Maybe we should ask some of the junior ranks from the reserves.

Between the condescending, or the drunk Reg F guys in shacks walking around trying to find some "Rentals" or "toons" to kick the **** of, what would you like to know?

Now to be perfectly honest, it isn't always like this, and not everyone is going to behave that way. But while we're being honest:

Reg F guys patronize the Res guys, Res guys get jaded, don't want to work with Reg guys. This is when guys aren't right out reg/res abusive.

I've worked with regs, and I don't like being treated like a younger & dumber cousin. Of course it isn't so bad when they find out I want to go Regs...of course, when tasked with the Regs, if we're smart, we just don't talk about the Res.

Edit: spelling

 

[TCBF]

Just in case anyone thinks this is new, I did five years in the Militia before I joined the Regs in 76, and you know what?  It all depends on the people you are with.

Tom

 

[Haggis]

It all depends on the people you are with.

Exactly.  I have lots of examples.

 

[a_majoor]

Trying to sort the wheat from the chaff here.

Most of the arguments seem to revolve around the (lack of) utility of the reserve in the CF. We can summarize most of the arguments:

1. Reserve soldiers do not have as much training and experience as their Reg counterparts
2. Reserve soldiers do not have the same depth of resources as their reg counterparts
3. The Reserve has a bloated and inefficient organization, which sucks away what little resources they do have

Working from these premises, we should be able to see that fixing issue 3 releases many resources to fix issues one and two. More discussion of this issue can be found here: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25713.0.html

Like I said earlier, there are many examples of foreign militaries which use reserve forces in front line roles with advanced equipment. The attitude and training is different in the TA, National Guard or Israeli army, but they can do the job. There is no reason at all to suggest Canadian reservists arn't smart enough, well trained enough etc. to use Coyotes or other gucci kit very effectively, either on exercise or on deployment. It is just difficult to do so when there isn't even enough kit or ammunition for the Army as a whole, much less the reserve.

Considering my reserve ROTO (Palladium ROTO 13) had to train with a distinct lack of TCCCS radios, C-9s and live ammunition prior to deployment, yet still managed to do the job well and get everyone home alive should tell you something.

 

[orange.paint]

By the sound of things you were the res infantry who worked out of A sqn hanger RCD (correct?).I agree with you that you are not going to get coyote's ,as the RCD were short a full squadron.We had (I believe) at that time 4 manpacks in the regiment but if you needed tcccs updating there were 2 squadrons of vehicles around,I'm sure you could have worked on those.You were about as well trained as the rest of us.Did you not do the same work up training?As for c-6 training, didn't you get to fire at glamac the week of our arrival?

It sounds like a boast to me.Look what we did and how poor off we were prior.You guys worked fine as d&s as most of us were concerned (except the pistol and tma anti-tank mine incident).Everyone reg and reserve works with a lack of equipment,get over it.

 

[muskrat89]

???

rcac - instead of being snarky,  maybe you should re-read (or read)  his post? 

He says:

It is just difficult to do so when there isn't even enough kit or ammunition for the Army as a whole, much less the reserve.

You say:

Everyone reg and reserve works with a lack of equipment,get over it.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It sounds like a boast to me.Look what we did and how poor off we were prior.You guys worked fine as d&s as most of us were concerned (except the pistol and tma anti-tank mine incident).Everyone reg and reserve works with a lack of equipment,get over it.

Wow, pretty full of ourselves aren't we? I didn't read anything into it. Let's back off the condescending bullshit ok? Try to keep it on track. We're starting to come around that infamous circle for about the fourth time in this thread. It won't take much for it to sewer at this point.

 

[the 48th regulator]

And I am still lurking....

dileas

tess

 

[Haggis]

By the sound of things you were the res infantry who worked out of A sqn hanger RCD (correct?).I agree with you that you are not going to get coyote's ,as the RCD were short a full squadron.We had (I believe) at that time 4 manpacks in the regiment but if you needed tcccs updating there were 2 squadrons of vehicles around,I'm sure you could have worked on those.

The TCCCS kit was required for dismounted warfighter training.  Radios with a Coyote attached to them were not of much use.

And now, a bit of history:  The Roto 13 Inf Coy (eventually C Coy RCD BG) was originally to be D Coy 1 RCR and was supposed to fall in on a complete company's worth of kit, consumables office space etc. etc.   In Nov 02, the roto was given to the RCD who did not have CFFET items to equip a complete new sub-unit, let alone an Inf Coy in an Armd Regt.  Eqpt for that coy was sourced from througout LFCA so to not deplete the RCD (who were sending a Recce Sqn on Op ATHENA Roto 0 concurrently) and it came up short in many critical items. Spare parts (especially for TCCCS kit) were non existant.

You were about as well trained as the rest of us.  Did you not do the same work up training?  

TMST and MSIT yes, but not warfighter.  The RCD did warfighter during BTE03 in Wainwright.  DCDS would not fund the Reservists for more than a year and set thier employment dates as May 03 to May 04.  LFCA and the parent brigades didn't have any money to send them Class B.  Therefore they were not at BTE (through no fault of thier own).

On resources:  During C Coy's warfighter training in June- Aug 03, the base was on pre-deployment and block leave.  Those who were left behind (and LFCA HQ) were focused on getting Op ATHENA Roto 0 out the door before Roto 13.  For example, the Iltis vehs required for the September validation trg (Exs Balkan Dragoon and Storming Bear) only arrived a scant week before the ex.  This "Light Patrol Vehicle" company had been footborne since May.  This was well known to the chain of command as the CO and RSM would come in off leave to see how the training was going (Two outstanding leaders.  )  But when you're not Op ATHENA and you're not MILCON and you're not ARC and LFCA says "NO!" than their hands were essentially tied.

As for c-6 training, didn't you get to fire at glamac the week of our arrival?  

That was Bravo Coy.  C Coy used Adelbesic Ranges in Bihac, a 5 Corps AFBiH facility, with just enough ammo to group and zero.  The remainder was either op stock or quarantined to be shipped back for the draw-down.  

You guys worked fine as d&s as most of us were concerned (except the pistol and tma anti-tank mine incident).

D&S Pl only made up less 1/4 of that Coy (30 out of 163 all ranks) and they were, technically, under command of BG HQ.  And if you're referring to the pistol incident in BLMF, he was NOT part of D&S Pl or C Coy.... ever.

In comparison to the eqpt and support available to the two previous Reserve coys, Roto 13 was, indeed, starved.  Despite the best efforts of the CQMS, the RCD QM staff and B Sqn, who essentially looked under almost every rock in LFCA for kit, there was simply nothing to be had.

 

[orange.paint]

Harldy any of A sqn did get war fighting either as most of us were rerolled tankers.
Same training all around.

Wow, pretty full of ourselves aren't we? I didn't read anything into it. Let's back off the condescending bullshit ok? Try to keep it on track. We're starting to come around that infamous circle for about the fourth time in this thread. It won't take much for it to sewer at this point.

How is stating facts being condesending?People ALWAYS bitch about lack of equipment and how poor off they all are and how they adapted and overcame...it's your job.Yes it sucks, but what can you do.

The land mine pistol etc is neither here nor there (but it was D & S platoon).Basically all I thought I said was "get over it you did the job fine equipment or none."