Subsidized Education - ROTP

[George Wallace]

On the subject of grammar and correct spelling and such, as it has shot off in that direction a bit; it is much easier to SEARCH for info on this site, if members attempt to use correct English in their posts.  MSN Speak, misspelled words, and other misuses of the English Language are not always easily SEARCHED if the Search Engine can not recognize the words, either being used to Search, or in archived posts.

For those truly interested in becoming members of the CF, the written and spoken word are very important.  Lives will literally depend on your having correct communication skills.

It is also the intent of this site to be as "professional" as possible in our content.  What you may interpret as a minor lapse, may become compounded into a major degradation of the site's quality.  We are not MilPhotos.com.  ;D

 

[mariomike]

Not the way I would respond to someone that has over 30 years of experience and knowledge about how members (including possible future Ocdts) should conduct themselves.

Very well said. 

 

[Blackadder1916]

Though I am not able to point Engineer79 to a reference that will unequivocally state "thou shalt not enroll dickweed under ROTP if he has only one academic year remaining in his degree programme", I may, however, be able to explain some of the thinking behind the policy (or at least repeat how it was explained to me some years ago).

It has to with obligatory service.  See DAOD 5049-1, Obligatory Service.  Here are some excerpts from that order.

Calculation of Obligatory Service
The duration of a course of study is counted in calendar months to the nearest half-month. Obligatory service will normally be incurred when a course of study is six months or longer, and will be calculated on the basis of two months' service for each month of education or training, using the start and end dates of the course of study.

Education
The following table identifies the education for which periods of obligatory service are incurred and the duration of those periods.

Who?	Service Required
Officers enrolled under the Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP)	minimum 36 months to 60 months maximum Note - Under the ROTP, the member is subject to obligatory service on commencement of the second academic year

 

If someone is subsidized for only one academic year (say 9 months, as it is only calculated for the months that you actually attend university) they cannot incur the minimum obligatory service (36 months) required for ROTP.

I will refrain from adding any additional comment about grammar, punctuation, capitalization or the general decline in civilization attributed to younger generations.

Damn, I had to come back in and correct some grammar.  I hate it when that happens.

 

[SupersonicMax]

My take on it is that even if he's subsidized for 9 months, he'd owe 36.  Same way Prep Year doesn't count towards obligatory service (max 60 months)

 

[aesop081]

it’s about being a good quality officer/ good solider/good NCO.

One day, maybe, you will know what that is. Until then, please, refrain from commenting.

When you are an officer or a senior NCO

I am a Senior NCO.

let me assure you, the former will have far greater results!, then i will ask you

You may not assure me of anything. My experience has taught me what leadership style to use in what situations so i will go with that. if i have any engineering-type questions i can answer myself ( as an ex combat engineer) , then i will ask you.

How do I know this?? :

I have 17 years of military experience .......what about you ?

I'm going to stay out of your little drama there but i just hate it when people like you start lecturing on what a good officer/NCO is. You have no freaking idea.

 

[Engineer79]

I did look at the profile of all those who posted here, which is exactly why I stated that many of you are much older then I am (should have had added older/experienced). But never be ignorant to other people's (younger and older) comments. If you disagree with my comments, that is fine, if you agree with my comments, that is also fine, but try not to be ignorant. I am not trying to start a war here but make peace.


Blackadder and Max,

Thank you for your replies. Yes, I would have no problem if 1 year of subsidization would incur a 36 month obligatory service. I was actually looking forward to that idea.

 

[aesop081]

But never be ignorant to other people's (younger and older) comments.

Glad you missed the point.

:

 

[Engineer79]

Glad you missed the point.

:

Come on, lets be honest, I didn't ignore anyone's comments - neither yours or Wallace's. You know I took the comments/suggestions gladly but hated the added retaliation.

 

[Drag]

Even Wallace would agree that 30 years of experience and knowledge doesn’t equate to perfection. Never once did I say I didn’t respect his comments regarding the Canadian force. And all I did was write back two sentences defending myself, not retaliating!

Guys/Gals, I know most of you are older than I am, and there are the younger ones, either way please recognize that it is important to distinguish between a suggestion and a rude comment. Regardless of what other people tell you, regardless of your level of education, background, ethnicity or religion – keep an open mind about what other people feel. Being in the Military isn’t always about being strict, it’s about being a good quality officer/ good solider/good NCO. When you are an officer or a senior NCO you will get more than enough share of your opportunities to “yell” at those below your ranks. You will get a chance to be straight forward with them and tell them what they did wrong, or you can be an *** about it and use their personal agenda to give yourself self esteem and superiority complex a boost. The choice is up to you, but let me assure you, the former will have far greater results! How do I know this?? :

Wallace,
Nice try, but its still not right, I’ll give you a couple more chances
Also, your right U of T Engineering doesn’t advocate grammar and spelling too much. But I think the other departments do a very good job at it – especially the English department  . On the other hand, most good engineering university try not to advocate English too much– it’s just how engineering is setup. English is a language, Numbers is a language – So they teach us Numbers instead 

Finally, thank you for all your comments/suggestions. Was very helpful.

That is a terrible attitude for an aspiring officer.  What exactly do you know about how Sr NCOs and Officers in the CF act?  A deficiency was pointed out, and instead of correcting it you responded with attitude.
I am also a recent engineering grad who has not taken an English course since high school.  As an officer in the Canadian Forces, proper communications skills are crucial.  If your supervisor has to return a PER you wrote a dozen times for corrections it will be reflected negatively on your PER.

 

[aesop081]

but hated the added retaliation.

It was not "retaliation", it had nothing to do with the little argument you have going with other members.

It was about you talking abut things of which you have no knowledge of. it was about you telling members here ( quite a few of them being or having been officers & senior NCOs) what a good officer/ Snr. NCO should do.

You can comment when yo have some time in, until then STFU.

 

[Engineer79]

It was not "retaliation", it had nothing to do with the little argument you have going with other members.

It was about you talking abut things of which you have no knowledge of. it was about you telling members here ( quite a few of them being or having been officers & senior NCOs) what a good officer/ Snr. NCO should do.

You can comment when yo have some time in, until then STFU.

It was a comment, all you have to do is take it or leave it. Comment: "A statement (of fact or opinion), especially a remark that expresses a personal reaction or attitude." I wasn't trying to portray that i knew more then you, but rather, just stating my personal opinion. I hope this settles things between us.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Engineer79,

Advice.  Take it or leave it.

1.  Shut up.
2.  Stop talking about things you have no idea about (read *anything to do with the CF*).
3.  If you are about to say something stupid (kind of becoming a pattern here...), refer to #1.

I think my post is still is within the rules on this forum, so I'll stop there.

 

[Otis]

Funny enough ... I work at CFRC Toronto, where this gentleman claims he got five different answers from different recruiters, and I know for a FACT that no one here would have questioned whether or not he could be subsidized less than 2 years (assuming of course that as a UofT student he went in to the Toronto office and not Mississauga or somewhere else).

ALSO funny enough ... working at CFRC Toronto, I HAVE the definitive answer AND reference for said gentleman.

Tab B to Annex 4 of Annex A of the ROTP Op Order states that Category Field "ROTP/Ug" is for Applicants continuing study at a Civilian University that will require less than four years of subsidy. It also states that NO LESS THAN 1.5 YEARS OF SUBSIDY WILL BE GRANTED UNLESS APPLICANT IS A BOTP BYPASS.

There, that should solve THAT argument. I'll respectfully stay out of the remainder of the discussions.

Otis

 

[Engineer79]

Thank you very much Otis, you were of great help, as was everyone else. One last question if you don't mind, if i wanted the second term (Jan 2010- April 2010) of my upcoming year to be subsidized, when would you say the deadline to submit my application be?

 

[Otis]

Thank you very much Otis, you were of great help, as was everyone else. And No, i went to the Barrie CFRC. One last question if you don't mind, if i wanted the second term of my upcoming year to be subsidized, when would you say the deadline to submit my application be?

You will not get your second term subsidized.

Selection for the ROTP program happens between Oct and Feb every year. The next set of selections will start Oct 09 for the school year commencing September 2010.

 

[Engineer79]

You will not get your second term subsidized.

Selection for the ROTP program happens between Oct and Feb every year. The next set of selections will start Oct 09 for the school year commencing September 2010.

Fair enough, I think i will go with reserves in the meantime to finish my training. Thanks again everyone!

 

[Blackadder1916]

My take on it is that even if he's subsidized for 9 months, he'd owe 36.  Same way Prep Year doesn't count towards obligatory service (max 60 months)

My interpretation was obviously different than yours, however in light of Otis's definitive answer with ref it is moot.  But in viewing some of the advertising material about ROTP, I noted that there seemed to be a standard message of "two months obligatory service for each month of academic subsidization to a maximum of 60 months obligatory service".  There was no mention of any "minimum" amount of obligatory service. 

And there was this post from MKO (who used to post here as ComdCFRG until he no longer filled that position) in another thread that deals with this subject.

Dkim and SUPERficialHERO: it is never too late to either go on the website  and chat with a recruiter online or GO INTO a centre.  Make sure that you explain your circumstances fully and what you are interested in doing in the CF and then let them explain what occupations and entry programmes are available that might make that a reality.  If they don't mention ROTP, MOTP etc, bring it up as a specific question to find out why they didn't mention them, why it might not apply to you and then what you might be able to do to become eligible.

There ARE limits to how late in an undergraduate degree we accept into ROTP because of the obligatory service aspects however the process for students who have already completed more than one year in a degree programme is slightly different for those coming out of high school or in their first year.

PuffinFresh hit it on the nose: you still have until this Thurs to start the processing - nothing ventured, nothing gained.

MKO

Therefore, I'll continue to believe that my interpretation was closer to the mark.

MKO's response to that query (similar to many of the other posts he made when the info was not favourable to the potential recruit) also included the suggestion to go to the recruiting centre and see what else they could for him.  In that way he is a good representation of a recruiter as a "salesman" of careers in the CF.  Just like a car salesman - the shiny new red Corvette may attract a customer into the showroom but you don't let him leave because he can't afford it or was simply looking.  You try to find something else that he qualifies for.

 

[Otis]

I'm sure you didn't mean it in this way Blackadder, but comparing us to Car Salesman is a negative connotation that I'd like to avoid.

I don't know about anywhere else (or anyWHEN else, I've heard stories of people being mis-lead) but here we don't try to 'sell' any trade or job or entry plan. We ensure that people are informed of options and let them make a decision about what they want to do. i.e.:I will not tell someone to be an Aerospace Controller rather than a Pilot, but I will let them know that we're hiring AEC's right now and we're not hiring Pilots ...

Most dis-satisfied people have heard what they WANT to hear rather than what was actually said ... so we're usually very careful about how we say things in order to avoid confusion.

OK, I'm done - rant over! 

 

[mathabos]

Tab B to Annex 4 of Annex A of the ROTP Op Order states that Category Field "ROTP/Ug" is for Applicants continuing study at a Civilian University that will require less than four years of subsidy. It also states that NO LESS THAN 1.5 YEARS OF SUBSIDY WILL BE GRANTED UNLESS APPLICANT IS A BOTP BYPASS.

I just came upon this thread and was wondering where I could get this document in its entirety. Reason being is I have applied for ROTP at a civi university and I am waiting for board selection in early December. In January I will have only a year and a half left to complete my degree. So if I am selected in December I am fine. However, if I am not selected would I have to wait to complete my degree and go DEO ?

 

[Otis]

You cannot have this document as it is an internal document of CFRC.

In fact, I don't even have this document. The UPSO did and showed it to me so that I could originally answer this question with reference.

Otis