Sweet raise for LCIS Techs

[Wright]

Only difference between some sig ops and most LCIS is that Sig Ops dont get handed the tools to do what LCIS do...oh and the spec pay.  Hmmmm how hard is it to swap a hub battery or rad card in a 522????

That is not what all techs do, dont get me wrong, a basic tech starts off with that skillset.  however, compared to civi side, techs are underpaid.
How about program a cisco router switch, fault find an ehsd kit, TCI's, Data comms, Fiber, Alcatel mux's,  heavy det, light det, vpn kits,
I dont think i need to keep going, i could spend all day listing the kit that is needed to know.
The amount of knowledge, training, and skills required to do a techs job is well worth the deserved pay.
I agree, there are alot of sig ops out there that actually believed the recruiter and took a sig op position, that could definetly pass for techs, and there are alot of techs that should not be techs, that leaked there way through the cracks.

 

[ubergeek_123]

Techs get spec pay because they have specialized training and skills.  You get paid for what you know not necessarily what you do. I have met and work with a lot of highly skilled Sig Ops that should be getting spec pay, and have also worked with techs that should not be getting spec pay.

 

[chrisf]

Sig ops don't deserve spec pay, I'm a sig op, and *I* personally deserve spec pay, but only because I'm doing the job of a sig op, and also a large portion of the job of an LCIS tech and an EGS tech, ("We're just sig ops, we don't understand things like induction, and copper loss, well, some of us do, but you don't pay us enough to admit to it on a regular basis, so find somone else to fix it, because I'm going to bed") but as a sig op, I'll freely stand up and say sig ops don't deserve spec pay. Our job doesn't involve overly complicated specialized training, and "any idiot" can do the job of the sig op. There's plenty of switched on sig ops out there doing much more then what's called for in their job description, but the basic job description of a sig op doesn't deserve spec pay. The LCIS techs on the other hand, require much more indepth training, and more importantly, can make more civie side, paying them more helps to hang on to them. If sig ops don't like LCIS techs getting spec pay, then suck it up and ask for a remuster.

 

[Jammer]

A Sig Op:
You obviously have no clue where the trade is going these days. With the implemetation of MES and the sub-set training that this will entail, your narrow vision of is blatently ignorant at best.
Your comment that any idiot can do the job of a Sig Op is totally uncalled for.
Are you advocating that secure and non secure networks IS or otherwise can be established and maintained by MSE OPs?
Could an Infanteer set up HCLOS or work the MT?
No, my misguided friend, not likely. Before you spout off about about what you THINK you know, fact check yourself.
I see by your profile the you are R215...what do you really know beyond HF or Tac Rad...I wonder.
The issue of spec pay for Sig Ops is not open for debate under the old trade.
The new trade of ACCIS in May 2010 and the issue of spec pay, and who will get it is under review.

 

[ubergeek_123]

Jammer,

I certainly see the point you are trying to make, moreover, I agree. HOWEVER, in a knowledge based economy you must have the knowlege/training before you can get the pay. I do believe in the MES implementation there will have to be a technical qualification for members to get spec pay (I'm applying common sense on this, so anyone correct me if I am wrong).

I think just randomly handing out spec pay will just appease some people and do nothing for the CF at all.  If anything it will dilute credibility of the technical trade.  Just because you can talk the talk, does not necessarily mean you can walk the walk. A friend of mine said it best: "In our line of work It's not what you now, it's what you know and IT AIN'T SO that gets you in trouble"

 

[chrisf]

A Sig Op:
You obviously have no clue where the trade is going these days. With the implemetation of MES and the sub-set training that this will entail, your narrow vision of is blatently ignorant at best.
Your comment that any idiot can do the job of a Sig Op is totally uncalled for.
Are you advocating that secure and non secure networks IS or otherwise can be established and maintained by MSE OPs?
Could an Infanteer set up HCLOS or work the MT?
No, my misguided friend, not likely. Before you spout off about about what you THINK you know, fact check yourself.
I see by your profile the you are R215...what do you really know beyond HF or Tac Rad...I wonder.
The issue of spec pay for Sig Ops is not open for debate under the old trade.
The new trade of ACCIS in May 2010 and the issue of spec pay, and who will get it is under review.

I'm not going to claim I know everything, but trust me, I'm a little more up and what's going on then just tac rad.

Where the trade is going is irellevent. That's not where the trade is now. No one has said anything about ACCIS. ACCIS is not a Signals Operator. The discussion was about Signals Operators, not ACCIS Operators, so what my statements stand.

The reality, there's little demand for what we do civillian side, and the money isn't all that impressive. Spec pay has very little to do with being a specialist, and much more to do with retention, bringing pay rates closer to being in line with their civillian equivilents.

Change the job requirements, change the training, and sure, spec pay makes sense, but in the mean time, no, spec pay doesn't make sense.

And yes, I do believe most MSE ops can operate secure/non-secure networks, I also believe some infanteers could set up the MT, with a little bit of training, which is what sig ops receive, a little bit of training.

Would I like to have spec pay? Sure would. Heck, my civillian qualifications would write off much of an LCIS tech's trades training. Does it make sense it at the moment? Nope.

 

[Wright]

Jammer,

I certainly see the point you are trying to make, moreover, I agree. HOWEVER, in a knowledge based economy you must have the knowlege/training before you can get the pay. I do believe in the MES implementation there will have to be a technical qualification for members to get spec pay (I'm applying common sense on this, so anyone correct me if I am wrong).

I think just randomly handing out spec pay will just appease some people and do nothing for the CF at all.  If anything it will dilute credibility of the technical trade.  Just because you can talk the talk, does not necessarily mean you can walk the walk. A friend of mine said it best: "In our line of work It's not what you now, it's what you know and IT AIN'T SO that gets you in trouble"

I agree fully, I am probably putting one more S in ACCISS then needed, not sure this whole MES/MOZART thing has been like a ghost.
We had a brief with the three wise men in regards to this. Spec Pay is going to be attempted for sig ops, and possibly lineman. I personally don't like this ACCISS thing, It should not affect me all that much though. for those coming through the system on this new "trade  tree" will be severely affected. they say that those members will still have a "choice" and the freedom to go from the CIS(Computer info sys) tech to a CNR Monkey, to the generic ACCISS position. I dont see this happening at all. If they need you to stay somewhere in a position until they feel you can move on, your staying there no matter how long.
For a while,
I can see this being as retarded as a giraffe trying to hump a football in the arctic. but, the navy does this already with the screensaver (radar op) trade, and it seems to be working out for them, it took them a while to get it smoothed out. like microsoft says, give it a few years, and all the bugs will be worked out.

 

[Wright]

I'm not going to claim I know everything, but trust me, I'm a little more up and what's going on then just tac rad.

Where the trade is going is irellevent. That's not where the trade is now. No one has said anything about ACCIS. ACCIS is not a Signals Operator. The discussion was about Signals Operators, not ACCIS Operators, so what my statements stand.

The reality, there's little demand for what we do civillian side, and the money isn't all that impressive. Spec pay has very little to do with being a specialist, and much more to do with retention, bringing pay rates closer to being in line with their civillian equivilents.

Change the job requirements, change the training, and sure, spec pay makes sense, but in the mean time, no, spec pay doesn't make sense.

And yes, I do believe most MSE ops can operate secure/non-secure networks, I also believe some infanteers could set up the MT, with a little bit of training, which is what sig ops receive, a little bit of training.

Would I like to have spec pay? Sure would. Heck, my civillian qualifications would write off much of an LCIS tech's trades training. Does it make sense it at the moment? Nope.

The original dates were this fall for MES/MOZART, that got pushed back to next april"ish".
ITs happening. and the ACCISS thing, the ACCISS guys, are operators, (not trying to offend sig ops here, ) but as the Sig Op Chief said, the Sig op and Acciss trades are going to be one and the same, basic signal trades.
Try telling some of the good sig ops at JSR (there are some "different" ones as well) that do Network admin, which is a CS2 position Civi side, that same position  makes 60 grand a year+.

I have to ask, why dont you remuster then if you think your civi side papers will get your 3's written off for LCIS?

 

[chrisf]

The original dates were this fall for MES/MOZART, that got pushed back to next april"ish".
ITs happening. and the ACCISS thing, the ACCISS guys, are operators, (not trying to offend sig ops here, ) but as the Sig Op Chief said, the Sig op and Acciss trades are going to be one and the same, basic signal trades.
Try telling some of the good sig ops at JSR (there are some "different" ones as well) that do Network admin, which is a CS2 position Civi side, that same position  makes 60 grand a year+.

Which, which taking into account benefits, and the job security of being in the army, is about in-line with what a corpral sig op makes.

I have to ask, why dont you remuster then if you think your civi side papers will get your 3's written off for LCIS?

Not completely written off, but much of it, more then half. However, there's no more reserve LCIS techs. When I joined, I wanted to be an LCIS tech. I was told the unit recruited from within for the LCIS tech posistions, and if I spent a few years as a sig op, I could remuster to LCIS tech. Which was at one time true, but not anymore.

 

[Wright]

Which, which taking into account benefits, and the job security of being in the army, is about in-line with what a corpral sig op makes.

Not completely written off, but much of it, more then half. However, there's no more reserve LCIS techs. When I joined, I wanted to be an LCIS tech. I was told the unit recruited from within for the LCIS tech posistions, and if I spent a few years as a sig op, I could remuster to LCIS tech. Which was at one time true, but not anymore.

the benefits are not the same. They get the same health benefits (same coverage for most positions, as each base is different for some reason) the only thing they pay for is prescriptions, and i dont think they pay the whole thing, most civi work for the military now is completed by former members, so even then, some benefits from that still account.

as for Job Security. Job security is equivelant. have you ever seen someone screw up bad, and still not get fired because of a union. there are people that work 3 1/2 days a week due to "stress," and still get paid their salary.

Now leave, they have set sick days, (10 i believe, as well as the family care days 10, on top of their leave.)
and they have to use these up.  that is a fair amount of leave.

if someone knows different, share it, i am not %100 nor an expert on this,


and the civi side papers, are pretty much useless for LCIS threes, except for quad S. I can see 5's, but not 3's. 3's deals specifically with Nera Saturn BT2, CNR kit(5121, 1694 etc, plus all associated amps, cabling, power supplies), the 3614 boat anchor, and that extremely annoying phone. radar, Comsec,
basically very little equipment that is seen civi side,
unless per chance you worked for a company that repaired INMARSAT kit, or Harris, or General Dynamics. I doubt it.
I have yet to seen someone that is already in, (even sig ops) that have had their threes written off. (I even had a former sig op of 18 years on my threes, only spent time at hard army units, have to do an LCIS threes)I know members that didnt have to do POET due to equivelancy, but yet to see threes, I have seen LCIS bypass the dark hole comlpetely, but they also enlisted under another program where they attended St. Lawrence and that to get equivelant while the military paid the bills.




cheers,

 

[ubergeek_123]

Wright,

I am a direct entry ATIS.  I came in semi-skilled conditional on completing OJT (QL4 Package) within 6 months, after which I was 5s qualified.  I got offered the same thing had I gone the LCIS route, minus the OJT package more like a probatory period.  So yes, you can get equivalence and bypass the school (POET, QL3) completely.  As far as dealing with Inmarsat, Harris, COMSEC  and GD stuff, hey, if you had the technical aptitude to do school on your own and get the aforementioned qualifications granted then these are skills that are easily learned through OJT or by going on the specific equipment course or better yet, reading a manual and figuring it out.

Mind you this was 6 years ago but I am certain that if you have the right civilian qualifications you should not have a problem.  I went to school on my on dime and got a sweet sign on bonus. 

 

[Sig_Des]

I recently had this conversation with some of our techs, and when I asked one why he thought he got spec pay, he jokingly answered "Because the Army taught me Ohm's law".

Wright and a Sig Op, I think you guys are a little off the mark here when it comes to the Sig Op vs. LCIS trades. The line between the two is getting very, VERY blurred.

a Sig Op, I will grant you that what we were trained to do on our 3's and 5's, pretty much any trained monkey can do. Wright, I will grant you that your trade's training is a lot more technical-specific than ours.

That being said...

I am going on 8 months in theater in a Section that is composed of half LCIS and half Sig Ops. And for the last 8 months, we have all been doing the same job as each other. And I don't mean we've just been doing GD.

Techs are sighting in satellite systems and LOS systems. Sig Ops are heavily involved in the programming of routers and switches, managing multiple networks. We have both been running and terminating fiber and copper line. We have both been using spectrum analyzers.

I have gone from dismounted ops one day, to programming and installing routers and switches the next, operating the CP, to setting up an HCLOS, troubleshooting IP issues on networks, to calling in CAS, to cabling an entire TOC for multiple networks, to lining up someones CFRT, to doing gate shift, to troubleshooting vehicle comms, to replacing comms wiring in vehicles, etc.

This isn't to brag, but to state that both trades have been blurred to the point where people don't know what trade we are. I've flown into sites where I have been known as "The Sig", "The Tech", and "The Lineman". And in many of the places I've been to, you cannot afford to say "Oh, I'm not trained to do that, I'm not a Sig Op/Lineman/Tech

It doesn't irk me that LCIS Techs get Spec Pay. What irks me is that the system is placing demands on the other tradesmen, often giving us the equipment without the benefit of training beyond a 2-week Cisco Switches and Routers, operating, maintaining, and troubleshooting Nationwide networks, and saying I'm not getting the same pay as someone who is the same rank as me, has the same TI as me, is doing the same JOB as me....but the army trained him to do it, so he's getting spec pay.

And this is not isolated the theater. We all have to face it. The C&E AOR has become so convoluted that we ARE dipping into each others pools.

Will the MES fix it? Not at first, of this I'm certain. Will it help in the separation of workload. Maybe. Or will it just be a way for the empires to be reestablished (Only CIS guys do that). I dunno

Sure, I love green kit. I'm a dumb "push button, talk in magic green box, sky rain fire" Rad Op at heart. But the evolution of the equipment is at a point where you have to understand COTS, you have to understand the principles of Networking, IPs, subnetting, oh my.

I know I'll never see it, but personally, I think Spec Pay in our Branch should be position-based, like jump pay. If you're using it, sure. If a Sig Op is doing a job that has traditionally been Spec, give it to him. If a tech goes to a Recruiting Center or position where he isn't using his knowledge, cease spec pay.

That's my .02, anyway.

That is not what all techs do, don't get me wrong, a basic tech starts off with that skillset.  however, compared to civi side, techs are underpaid.
How about program a cisco router switch, fault find an ehsd kit, TCI's, Data comms, Fiber, Alcatel mux's,  heavy det, light det, vpn kits,
I dont think i need to keep going, i could spend all day listing the kit that is needed to know.
The amount of knowledge, training, and skills required to do a techs job is well worth the deserved pay.
I agree, there are alot of sig ops out there that actually believed the recruiter and took a sig op position, that could definetly pass for techs, and there are alot of techs that should not be techs, that leaked there way through the cracks.

 

[Wright]

I recently had this conversation with some of our techs, and when I asked one why he thought he got spec pay, he jokingly answered "Because the Army taught me Ohm's law".

Wright and a Sig Op, I think you guys are a little off the mark here when it comes to the Sig Op vs. LCIS trades. The line between the two is getting very, VERY blurred.

a Sig Op, I will grant you that what we were trained to do on our 3's and 5's, pretty much any trained monkey can do. Wright, I will grant you that your trade's training is a lot more technical-specific than ours.

That being said...

I am going on 8 months in theater in a Section that is composed of half LCIS and half Sig Ops. And for the last 8 months, we have all been doing the same job as each other. And I don't mean we've just been doing GD.

Techs are sighting in satellite systems and LOS systems. Sig Ops are heavily involved in the programming of routers and switches, managing multiple networks. We have both been running and terminating fiber and copper line. We have both been using spectrum analyzers.

I have gone from dismounted ops one day, to programming and installing routers and switches the next, operating the CP, to setting up an HCLOS, troubleshooting IP issues on networks, to calling in CAS, to cabling an entire TOC for multiple networks, to lining up someones CFRT, to doing gate shift, to troubleshooting vehicle comms, to replacing comms wiring in vehicles, etc.

This isn't to brag, but to state that both trades have been blurred to the point where people don't know what trade we are. I've flown into sites where I have been known as "The Sig", "The Tech", and "The Lineman". And in many of the places I've been to, you cannot afford to say "Oh, I'm not trained to do that, I'm not a Sig Op/Lineman/Tech

It doesn't irk me that LCIS Techs get Spec Pay. What irks me is that the system is placing demands on the other tradesmen, often giving us the equipment without the benefit of training beyond a 2-week Cisco Switches and Routers, operating, maintaining, and troubleshooting Nationwide networks, and saying I'm not getting the same pay as someone who is the same rank as me, has the same TI as me, is doing the same JOB as me....but the army trained him to do it, so he's getting spec pay.

And this is not isolated the theater. We all have to face it. The C&E AOR has become so convoluted that we ARE dipping into each others pools.

Will the MES fix it? Not at first, of this I'm certain. Will it help in the separation of workload. Maybe. Or will it just be a way for the empires to be reestablished (Only CIS guys do that). I dunno

Sure, I love green kit. I'm a dumb "push button, talk in magic green box, sky rain fire" Rad Op at heart. But the evolution of the equipment is at a point where you have to understand COTS, you have to understand the principles of Networking, IPs, subnetting, oh my.

I know I'll never see it, but personally, I think Spec Pay in our Branch should be position-based, like jump pay. If you're using it, sure. If a Sig Op is doing a job that has traditionally been Spec, give it to him. If a tech goes to a Recruiting Center or position where he isn't using his knowledge, cease spec pay.

That's my .02, anyway.

Position based spec pay is a great idea(also has downfalls, which i think they are hoping this mes thing sorts out), I also agree that the line is getting blurred. like i said there are alot of great sig ops out there that know there stuff and should be techs. on our 3's we got trained to use to a certain extent and fix , use, not as in depth as you guys do though, and yeah, we get taught on 5's how to cable a classroom, which ( I have ALOT of experience cabling, Cat5, cat6, 25 pair, all the way to 700, fiber) is nothing like real thing.

As for the possibility of getting exempt POET and 3's. I did not say it wont or doesnt happen. and props to the people that took advantage of going to school on their dime, and getting a signing bonus, as well as getting a direct entry. I got offered Lineman Cpl after completeion of riggers etc. , however the spec pay was to alluring to me.
not everyone has the opportunity to go to school, look at me, my daughter was born, i had to take a night job, i missed my first class everyday in high school, therefore failing that one class, i am one credit short of my high school, yet here i am. I joined the military, and you might say took the long hard way to get to where i am. but that is the price i pay. I am nto bitching or whining here, however i have trained a Cpl Direct entry how to test/use and repair a 3614, 5121, , which, they would of known how to use if they had done threes.
it is a rarity for members to get bypassed now. IT really does depend on your recruiter.

 

[ubergeek_123]

We all have our life circumstances that dictate the paths we walk.  If you have to teach a direct entry guy how to fix a 3614 and a 5121, thats part of professional development for yourself as the teacher and for the new member.  I can see many scenarios in which you would have to do the same thing for a tech that spent 10 years away from a particular piece of equipment and needs to re-learn it.

The CF benefits for the most part in getting a direct entry skilled technician to fill manning shortages with capable personnel.  This not up to the recruiter but the CM shop and the school. I know for a fact the the ATIS Tech MOC still takes in direct entry dudes, because for one the school cannot produce enough technicians to fill current manning deficiencies.

As a tech I have no problem showing 215 guys how to fix and troubleshoot equipment.  I do this mostly because if someone else knows how to do it, the less I have to do!  :nod:  But like you said not all 215s are switched on just like not all 226s & 227s good technicians.

Beadwindow 7,

Best of luck in the sandbox and be prepared to deal with some very sketchy infrastructure, crazy demands and the long nights that implies.  I definitely agree that C&E AOR is totally blurred and people should be granted spec pay if they are filling such a position in operational theaters (similar how they WSE to a working rank).  It would be a good bridge until the MES is fully running.

BTW, not taking personal stabs here.  Just enjoying the discussion.

 

[Swingline1984]

Positional spec pay?  Exactly how do you propose they manage that?  Spec pay is "pay" not an allowance.  Spec pay is also pensionable.  As for the bits and pieces about doing the jobs of other trades, that is how "stuff" gets f**ked up.  A Tech is a Tech, a Sig Op is a Sig Op, just because you think you can do a techs job doesn't mean you do it well.  I'm sick and tired of wasting energy fixing the garbage installs people who think they can do my job come up with.  Making it work, and installing correctly are two different things.  But don't worry MES will fix everything  :

Cheers,

 

[Jammer]

Swingline:
You obviously don't understand the idea behind MES.
It is simply a scheme to place the right people in the right jobs. If you are selected to be a tech, nothing will change as it relates to pay and allowances.
Everyone will go though a common Signals DP-1 training cycle including the soldier qualification BEFORE you embark on your trades training.
Your selection into the sub-set of MES will be based on your aptitude and baseline testing. 
Everyone will be an ACCIS..period. It's all a matter of what sub-set you will be slotted into. Like it or not that's the way it will be...applications for Tim Horton's can be found in the lobby on the way out.

 

[Swingline1984]

Too bad Tim Horton's isn't pensionable.  I understand MES just fine thanks.