Tac Hel

[Sf2]

Mr. Wallace,

I respect your opinion, but given your vast experience, I am surprise to see how little you know about tactical helicopters

1)  Recce - Griffon pilots began training in RECCE in anticipation of the ERSTA system - Route, Zone, Area recce, along with vehicle recognition training was taught quite extensively at the OTU.  These skills are still being maintained at the squadron level, although not as much due to the cancellation of the system.  To say that pilots do not know how to support movement is wrong, we are just never tasked by our lifted units to do so.  Not to mention that there are quite a few ex Kiowa flyers still in the game.  

2)  Crew rest in the mud and cots - don't blame the operators here.  We must follow rules put forth to us from NDHQ, 1 CAD, 1 Wing etc.  We break this rules, its the same as a negligent discharge for you guys....bad news.  We do our best to allocate and schedule crews so that there are available crews based on lifted unit requirements.  You can't blame the paperboy for bad headlines.....

3)  Your definition of Nap of the Earth - this was your most INACCURATE statement.    During the daytime, we are allowed to 15 ft above obstacles in approved tactical areas, and below 40 knots, we're good down to 4 ft.  We CONSTANTLY train at these altitudes, because not only does it lower visual signature, but its damn fun.  With troops on board, we'll fly at these altitudes all the time, cuz the troops love it....At night on NVG's, we're approved to 50 ft, and 15 ft below 40 knots.  I"m not sure what your 100 ft sight picture looks like, or were you staring at the radar altimiter during your flight?

4)   Civilian pilots deal with TC, FAA all the time....correct, and so do we.  However that was not my point.  My point was directed at maintanence actions and standards.  THere are EXTENSIVE, and I can't stress that word enough, extensive standards that must be met with respect to routine maintenance, inspections, delievery and handling of spare parts ect....This is amplified with the Griffon because unlike the majority of other CF aircraft, we require an FAA certification to fly it.  You wanna talk red tape, this is the perfect example, and I know for a fact that the army is not willing to open that can of worms for themselves.

5)  You have to realize that EVERY TRADE is not like the old days anymore.  Pilots aren't getting the 5-600 hrs a year....we're lucky to get 350.  And you made a good point - when army folks turn into pilots, they know how to employ the assets.  Nowadays, when a platoon commander cannot even get the seatbelt done up, how is he supposed to employ a helicopter and its crew for a route overwatch or a FOO platform?

 

[Good2Golf]

It seems that people are forgetting that the Army once did have our own aircraft.   Armour officers, after completing at least one year of troop leading, went on to become helicopter pilots, with Armour Snr NCO's as observers.   The artillery also had their own pilots and observers, flying the L-19.   Civilian pilots deal with the FAA, Transport Canada, and so on, so its not rocket science.   It seems to me that the attitude is that a person cannot be cross-trained to be a combat arms officer, and then become a pilot.   Many, in fact, most, of the first Kiowa and Huey pilots were ex-army, forced in to the air force along with unification.   The army lost a great assett, that has never reached the same standards.   What does a Griffon pilot know of recce?   How does he know how to support movement?   The answer is, he doesn't, for there is no-one to teach him.

The Air Force has succeeded in cacooning themselves away from the primary mission, now whenever we see choppers, even in the training area, they are flying along at 1000 ft or more, even the so-called "nap of the earth" is at least 100 ft AGL.

My point is, helicopter pilots and L-19 pilots were an additional eye and arm that the army has lost, and we have never been served to the same standard since.   Pilots are no longer another crew commander of a call sign, they are now something sacrosanct, that are not allowed to sleep in the mud because of some silly idea that people can't get enough rest unless they are in a bed, or at the very least, a cot.

I know that the older soldiers will know exactly what I am talking about, and the younger ones will have absolutely no idea.   Oh well.

I just had to throw in my $.02..............

hmmmm...Mr Wiebe, mind if I address some of the points you made?

Fully concur that flying "in" the Army would not be rocket science...many tactical aviators would prefer that, myself included...seeing as the light blue Air Force really doesn't give a shite about Army Aviation.  

That said...IMHO, the Army gave up on aviation while the Navy continues to this day to fight ferociously for control of air assets it still contends are "its own"...if not officially, then at least in direct support of Naval Operations.  In fact, as was noted in another thread, it was the Army itself that signed the death warrant for CH147 heavy lift and the CH136 recce capability...LGen Foster, Comd FMC himself in 1991....but wait, it gets better...endorsed by then 10 TAG Comd, Gen Lou Cuppens, an old Gunner and L-19 pilot turned Army aviator... :  Yup, seems it's always someone else's fault, right?  Not the Army's...no siree!

Griffon pilot knowing recce?...well lets see, aside from the ten+ guys I know having flown either OH-58, AH-64 or Lynx...many other Griffon guys practice the recce procedures contained in the B-GA-442 Tac Avn TT&Ps...amazingly, TTPs almost identical to those used by army recce pilots around the world and by CH136 pilots and observers of days past.  In fact, there is even coordination between aviators and those involved in recce...how do I know...well, I sat in Army Doctrine as the aviator, working very closely with the Armd offr to ensure that armed recce procedures and the conduct of the combined recce team were up to date and supportive of comtemporary operations.  They atempt to do this without a dedicated recce sensor...oh, by the way...it would have been nice if the Army had backed up the tactical aviation crowd trying to get an enhanced recce/sensor suite for the Griffon when it cae before the VCDS at JCRB in 2003...Gen McDonald, when asked by VAdm Garnnett, just shrugged his shoulders and said he wasn't able to comment on the Air Force's desire to procure the ERSTA system for the Griffon.  Bye the way...when you asked "How does he know how to support movement?", did you actually mean to say "...support manoeuvre"?  You know, the movement of forces, in combination with direct and indirect fire or fire potential, to achieve a position of advantage with respect to enemy forces....clearly something that air force guys, even the aviators you refer to, wouldn't know a thing about? :

Choppers always at 1000'?  Nap-of-the-earth...100'?   Come on...are you just saying that to troll, aren't you?  NOE is the same as when you were in..."clear of vegetation".  Griffons fly down to 15' during the day, 50' at night on NVG if advanced NVG-qual'd.

Did you mean to say "helicopter and L-19 pilots were an additional eye and arm that the Army chose not to support as it did its other branchs once command responsibility after unification became a CF responsibility..."?  Trivia point...up until 1992, FMC had full control (and responsibility) for the funding and resourcing of aviation assets...Air Command only took over such responsibility in 1992, after LGen Foster had directed the removal from service of the CH147 and CH136 and the replacement of the CH135 and CH118 with a single helicopter type (the wonderful CH146 Griffon that many an Army officer and NCM appear to enjoy slagging).

Is Hotel-19 not a fixed call sign?  

By "sleep in the mud"...do you mean physically sleeping in the mud like you imply all Amry personnel do?  Is using the bag, sleeping, inner and/or bag, sleeping, outer allowed, or is that cheating?  Can I use a bivvy bag to place my sleeping bag in (I like being dry...must be a sign of weakness) so that I can still sleep in the mud along side the few Army friends that I might either have, or who tolerate me in the field?

Seriously...it's always nice to reminisce, but please have enough courtesy to be fair minded towards the folks that are still trying to fight the good fight for you guys.  You kind of sound like one of those guys who had to walk to school uphill, both ways...

Regards,
Duey

 

[George Wallace]

short final

Kangaroo?   I didn't think I'd be using that aboriginal term soo soon.  You just failed Recce 101!

Your little tirade there, although interesting, was not in response to me, but to Lance.  I am sure that his experience and yours should keep this a very heated discussion.  By the way, Tac Hel came from the Army.  The Helicopter Troop of the RCD, became 444 Sqn only thirty years ago.  Yes times have changed.  Equipment has changed.  But I highly doubt the tactics of NAP and staying alive have changed much.  Oh well....you are the pilot....I'm not doing much riding anymore.... :'(

 

[Sf2]

you're right...my apologies....failed my BRASSCRAFT check before pushing the post button.

 

[Scoobs]

Where Tac Hel came from or not is moot.  The point is that it is here and it needs to work with the Army, not fight it.  The Army needs to understand its limitations and back us Tac Hel guys up when we go looking for money to upgrade the Griffon, buy new heavy/medium lift helos, buy something like ERSTA, etc.  Tac Hel is not the Army, but we exist to support it. 

I have to say that this thread is getting pretty heated.

 

[George Wallace]

I have to say that this thread is getting pretty heated.

Nah!   I'd say stimulating.

Agreed on the point about 'Lift' requirements.   That is something that we all need.   Even those other guys in 'Blue'.

 

[Good2Golf]

Nah!   I'd say stimulating.

Agreed on the point about 'Lift' requirements.   That is something that we all need.   Even those other guys in 'Blue'.

Hey George, any talk of blue belongs in the AF CADPAT Slip-ons and name tape thread...  ;D

Cheers,
Duey

 

[GO!!!]

So correct me if I'm wrong, but the "tone" of this thread seems to be leaning in the direction that the AF never wanted tachel to start with, but the army is too dumb/lazy to co-ordinate the maintenance of said helos.

When I said to bring back the army air corps, I meant EVERYONE even remotely associated with the birds, the equipment, facilities, and corresponding budget. All would be assimilated <insert borg voice> into the army. Scoobs mentioned awhile back that many AF pers "would not like" to be in the army. No problem. There are a great deal of people in the army who would like to be in the AF!! LOTP here we come!

Platoon commander not able to do up his seatbelt - he's one of your peers sir, perhaps you could sort him out so a Cpl does'nt have to. Seriously though, this statement only serves to highlight the lack of familiarity that the pointy end has with the helos. If you can't support the army, what purpose are you fulfilling?

A "green" AF would be the answer to many interoperability issues, and we could start to do more tactical things - such as mounting the C6s in the Griffons, and training infanteers to use them, creating flying fire support. (I've heard that this was done on the twin hueys)

As for the low alt flying... I've never seen the altitudes that short final is talking about from a canadian pilot in a griffon. Not saying it can't be done, but 408 is'nt doing it. NVG flying, seen that, but the pilot turned on his spotlight to land, which kind of wrecked the whole scenario.

And finally, we all get lost, and I never would have believed it myself, but the source is beyond reproach.

Another ex in Wx. Flying out, directly to the biv site, courtesy of the geese. Pilot appears to be using Hwy 14 as navigational aid. Whatever. Nice warm bird....sleep. Wait - we are slowing! Rotor pitch changes, we lose some altitude and slow down. Pilot checks road sign, and carries on back up to alt for a smooth ride in.

Now if only the guys in the back had kept sleeping...

And before you say I'm too critical - if I was a lost pilot, I would probably do the same thing!

Cheers!

 

[Strike]

GO!!!,

My issue wrt how the Army uses its Tac Hel resources is that they see us only as a mode of troop transport.  At least that has been my experience here at Pet.  But, as those who were in Bosnia and Haiti can attest to, there are many more things this helo is capable of, and it was used to its full extent.

As for the low alt flying... I've never seen the altitudes that short final is talking about from a canadian pilot in a griffon.

You need to come out to Pet and fly the bowling alley or the pipeline.  When we are out training we are very rarely above tactical levels -- 15 to 50 feet (above highest obstacle -- not necessarily the ground).  As for the issue of the spotlight, it is SOP for us to turn on the landing light in any situation in which it is called for.  This will happen if the FE is losing references in a tight spot or needs to clear the tail in an equally tight spot.

Trust me, if we are telling you we are flying at 15 feet, we are.  We've got a few more hours of experience under our belts when it comes to stuff like this.

 

[Scoobs]

Strike,

it just dawned on me.   I just noticed your expression.   Hope everything's all well in Pet.   Things are a little slower where I am now.

GO!!,

sometimes you make statements that show you know a fair amount, but then you make ones that show your lack of knowledge.   Maintaining an a/c is not just the people you see at the helo Sqn.   There are thousands of people throughout Canada doing so.   Anywhere from Bell Helicopters, DAEPM(TH) in Ottawa, LATEF in Gagetown, etc.   I HAVE experience with the Griffon and maintaining it (former D/OC Maint Flt).   I know what it takes to do so.   It is very easy to say, hey, lets just get everyone to join the Army that is remotely attached to the Griffon.   Do you have any idea of how many people that is?   Do you think that someone will just waive a magic wand and each and everyone of them will join the Army?   Your solution is to have Army pers do the jobs of those who don't want to do it?   How long do you think it takes to train a tech from the streets to where they can actually be useful on an a/c?   The answer is 4 years.   That's years, not months.   How long does it take to train an infantryman?   A lot less than 4 years.   That is not even taking into account the problem of losing the experienced techs on the a/c.   The AF is having a problem at this moment maintaining the experience level for techs from 15 to 20 years.   Flying and maintaining a helo is a lot more complicated than fixing an Iltis, MLVW, etc.   There are numerous things to consider, airworthiness, Flight Safety, airspace coord and control, when maintaining and flying a helo (just look at the Army's experience with the UAV in Afghanistan and the reason why it now rests with Tac Hel).   It was mentioned by a previous pers on this site about the Griffon's part supply problem.   That is an understatement to say the least.   I was on the phone everyday for 1 month asking where my collective jackshafts were for our inspection bird.   You would most likely say, "I'll just go and kick some ass in Calgary where the warehouse is".   Reality is that we in the Tac Hel community have to deal with an a/c maker, Bell, that licks their chops when we come to sign a support contract that gives them a lot of money and doesn't hold them accountable.   These are realities that would have to be dealt with.
As for flying high, as you know from what I said above, I was just at a Tac hel unit and PERSONALLY have been on many flights below the tree lines, just above the water.     Some of your statements (and this is not a personal attack) show a lack of knowledge in certain areas.   I speak about Tac Hel from experience.

By the way, I will correct you because you are wrong, THE TONE OF THIS THREAD IS NOT THAT THE AF DIDN'T WANT TAC HEL AND THAT THE ARMY IS NOT SMART ENOUGH TO COORDINATE THE MAINTENANCE OF SAID HELOS.   I'm sure that the Army would be able to do that after about 10 to 15 years of training techs, getting them up to speed on the a/c, gaining experience on fixing and maintaining a/c, setting up identical support systems such as Flight Safety, DAEPM(TH), etc.   Oh by the way, do all of this while still flying and supporting the a/c.  Did I mention that it must also be airworthy, as per the Aeronautics Act?  Can't skip corners on this one.

Scoobs out...

 

[paracowboy]

How long does it take to train an infantryman?   A lot less than 4 years.  

this statement is not accurate. An infantryman is not "trained" until at least 3 years. I still do not consider myself trained adequately. You really don't know much about our trade, either, do you?

 

[Scoobs]

Paracowboy,

actually, I do.  2 years reserve INFANTRY.  Reality is that infantrymen are sent on operational tours a lot sooner than a private in the AF or more specifically, Tac Hel is.  An apprentice tech is rarely, if ever, sent on an operational tour to places like Bosnia, Haiti, etc (places where Tac Hel has been more recently).  Whether you felt trained enough or not is an issue that you must take up with your chain of command.  When are you considered to be trade qualified?  Is it after 4 years?  I know that it isn't.  For an apprentice tech, 4 years is the minimum.

Check the entire thread before offering your opinion about someone's quals and experience.

Scoobs out...

 

[Infanteer]

Well, ideally you are never done training - when you learn something, you build off of it.

Now, let's everyone step back and quit trying to poke eachother in the eye.

 

[Scoobs]

Infanteer,

I agree that we never stop learning or training.

Scoobs out...

 

[Sf2]

GO!!, you've gotta stop using your 408 examples to analyze the entire TAC HEL community.    This one infantry officer puked during an airmobile insertion, they all must be a bunch of puss****.   Pretty condecending isn't it??

A "green" AF would be the answer to many interoperability issues, and we could start to do more tactical things - such as mounting the C6s in the Griffons, and training infanteers to use them, creating flying fire support. (I've heard that this was done on the twin hueys)

Again, total lack of knowledge.  C6's have been mounted on the Griffon since we got them.  And they aren't, and never were, used for direct fire support, only self protection.  We run door gunnery training every year.

 

[paracowboy]

Never mind. Your panties are too bunched-up to have any sort of reasonable discourse. My response would just crank them up another notch. You go back to ranting at GO!!!

Anyway, I'll vouch for the guys in Pet as flying lower, faster, and more 'tactically'. Them boys can fly. They smell funny, and but they can fly.
As long as it isn't too cloudy.
Or too sunny.

 

[Strike]

Anyway, I'll vouch for the guys in Pet as flying lower, faster, and more 'tactically'. Them boys can fly.

How about the girls out there? ;D

 

[Good2Golf]

How about the girls out there? ;D

Uh-oh Paracowboy, now you'll face the wrath!    Strike puts many (most? ) of the guys to shame!

Cheers,
Duey

 

[paracowboy]

How about the girls out there?

they don't smell nearly as bad. And they look much better in a flight suit.

I odn't remember the number of the squadron from (I believe) Valcatraz, but they were our taxis on the BTE in '03. Those fellas were just nuts. My buddy challenged them by saying the German Officer with us called them all pansies.

Best. Helo. Ride. Ever.

 

[KevinB]

Best flights ever - easily 427 circa 1990'ish -- anytime you got US choppers around CF pilots - just goad the CF pilot - hey the yanks did this lower and faster  ;D  - want trees in the cabin...

Worst  - was 450 Sqn (IIRC) CH-47 flights - like dancing with a fat drunk woman.