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Tactical combat casualty care ( TCCC )

Quote from Armymedic,
WO,

thats bad...


...sorry to jump in here my friend, but I think it should read,

WO,
thats priceless...
 
Armymedic, I love your second line of your signature, isn't it the truth! lol.
 
This would be similar to the use of AEDs which needs you to be certified by a medical doctor.  Is this correct or am I missing something?  

The use of AED's in Ontario, at least, are taught under the direction of a MD.   The programs must reviewed and the program signed off.
 
Its funny how you talk about first aid being only support.  If you look at what is going to save someone in a tactical environment its Tactics(prophylaxis), tourniquets, chest decompressions, and airway management.  So if we look at standard first aid - there is no tactics taught, tourniquets are discouraged (as opposed to the first adjuct used in TCCC), chest decompression is well beyond scope of practice, and airway, only 1% of preventable death, can only be basically managed - no definative adjucts within scope.  So yes, the first aider can provide reassurance to the casualty, that is true, but so can everyone else.  What I get from the data explained in the Dispatches is that if the casualty is alive then youll have to work hard to kill them, and if theyre dead theres not much you can do.  There is only a tiny percentage that you will be able to do anything for, ie, tourniquet and needle thoracostomy.  So where does the first aid instructor feel they have the position to teach this?  I'm not trying to be difficult, just realistic.  It is the medical community that needs to teach the medical skills, that has already been clearly stated.  The tactics side of this is where the confusion is from.  An infanteer (who specialized in tactics) with no medical experience, isnt going to be able to figure out what is the most important medical prodecdure to do and when to do it tactically.  That is why TCCC became to existance.  It is why 1 CMBG put medics and combat arms on the same course.  They both need to learn something from it.  It is that bridge that everyone is missing.  So to me it makes perfect sense why an Infanteer with a pre-hospital medical background wrote the Dispatches on the subject.  Everybody wants to be part of this new idea, but they have to realize thier position and limitations. 
 
Quote from JANES,

Everybody wants to be part of this new idea, but they have to realize their position and limitations.

...well I just read through this entire thread and realized that you sound like a pompous wannabe who didn't quite make it, you tear everyone apart and talk about their "limitations" but offer nothing of ANY substance in return.  Half your sentences seem to be taken right out of articles as your next one's info doesn't "line" up, please show me I'm wrong  as I am beginning to believe that your here only to troll,....prove me wrong, add something of significance or at least, some of your background...........awaiting.....
 
Trolling?  No!  Something to add?  Not yet!  What I see, is everybody wants a piece of this TCCC pie.  It's the newest coolest thing.  I'm not claiming I know everything about the topic as some are.  There are not too many people that know everything about any topic.  I'm just trying to put it into perspective for everyone.  I don't read a book on how to blow up a bridge and then go into the engineer forum and start telling them how it's done.  So why in this forum are people telling how it is with regards to TCCC, when they are only â Å“expertsâ ? on one side of the topic, yet claim to be experts on the whole topic.  Everyone is writing what they know, what they think they know, their opinions.  I guess I just have a different perspective.  I thought that's what this forum was for; to discuss and debate topics of interest.  And because I challenge peoples opinions, I'm questioned on intensions?  My only intension is to keep it real.
 
Janes

No Bio, No opinion as we do not know from what experience or training you are putting forth your opinion from.

Ta

By the way "Trolling?  No!  Something to add?  Not yet!" You seem to post allot for someone who has nothing to add.

I do not profess to know all there is to know about a topic but what I do know is that I know more than you.

Prove me wrong.
 
JANES said:
What I see, is everybody wants a piece of this TCCC pie. It's the newest coolest thing. I'm not claiming I know everything about the topic as some are. There are not too many people that know everything about any topic. I'm just trying to put it into perspective for everyone.

It might be a new cool thing to you but where I have been working, its been around. The CAR, LIB, 3 RCR (UMS), Patrol Pathfinders, and JTF have been using this knowledge shortly after Frank Butler first proposed it. Just because 1 CMBG was the first one to run a "course" doesn't mean the knowledge wasn't out there. Whats new is that we have people with the right frame of mind in the right places to make this happen.

JANES said:
I don't read a book on how to blow up a bridge and then go into the engineer forum and start telling them how it's done.   So why in this forum are people telling how it is with regards to TCCC, when they are only â Å“expertsâ ? on one side of the topic, yet claim to be experts on the whole topic.   Everyone is writing what they know, what they think they know, their opinions.   I guess I just have a different perspective.   I thought that's what this forum was for; to discuss and debate topics of interest.   And because I challenge peoples opinions, I'm questioned on intensions?   My only intension is to keep it real.

Get bent.

I will endeavour to do my best keeping it real in Afghanistan next week. First by instructing my team (all cbt arms, I am the only medical pers) in the ways of TCCC, then by living it for the next 6 months where my medevac resource is a Turkish or American Blackhawk on 30 min NTM and the teams LUVW, and all the medical gear I have is carried on my back or in teams med packs....

And if you doubt my understanding of tactics, I am sure a quick review of my profile will reveal the wide range of army experience I have accumulated.

So go back and read your copy of Dispatches which apparently is you only reference, and quit bothering those who are constantly learning and teaching in an endevour to bring this knowledge to as many as we can.
 
JANES said:
There is only a tiny percentage that you will be able to do anything for, ie, tourniquet and needle thoracostomy.   So where does the first aid instructor feel they have the position to teach this?  

I know I can teach and according to my students, quite well.  I am an intellegent person with the ability to learn and instruct others on what I have learned including anatomy.  If no one takes the time to learn, then no one will get taught.  Either you have never taken a SFA course or have not read the complete dispatch.  The outline the CPL INFANTEER outlines is very similar to MCM with some obvious tactical differences.

JANES said:
I'm not trying to be difficult, just realistic.   It is the medical community that needs to teach the medical skills, that has already been clearly stated.   The tactics side of this is where the confusion is from.   An infanteer (who specialized in tactics) with no medical experience, isnt going to be able to figure out what is the most important medical prodecdure to do and when to do it tactically.   That is why TCCC became to existance.   It is why 1 CMBG put medics and combat arms on the same course.   They both need to learn something from it.   It is that bridge that everyone is missing.   So to me it makes perfect sense why an Infanteer with a pre-hospital medical background wrote the Dispatches on the subject.   Everybody wants to be part of this new idea, but they have to realize thier position and limitations.  
That Bridge as you mention is exactly what we are talking about.  It is the arrogance that you are portraying that no one but the medical world would understand the subject matter that gets my goat.  As I stated before, we have been using SFA up until now and keeping people alive.  If it could be done more efficient and could be done under fire, then I am all for it.  The wilderness first aid course teaches a lot of what you talk as being difficault medical skills.  As some of the other people have pointed out in this forum, I realise that the medical issues must be taught by medical personnel but the application of these priciples under fire would be best taught by the infantry as I see it.
 
For the last time,

JANES RadOp

Quote from Armymedic:

"All medical services and treatments provided to the members of the CF fall under the legal responsibilities of the Surg Gen. Those responsibilities are delegated down thru the med chain to the lowest level at the MO, PA, NP level. Med Techs are authorized to provide medical services with a specific scope of practice that is allowed thru that chain, but ultimately its the supervising MO, PA or NP who is responsible for maintenance of the standard.

So for an TCCC/Cbt first responder trained nonmedical person to be able to practice and use the medical skills (and hence teach them as well...) they must first gain approval of their command (brigade, wing, fleet) Surgeon.

These Majors, who are no different then any other officer, trust in their Snr NCOs and troops. They trust in their skills as medics and as instructors.

For this reason, all medical training on these courses will be conducted by Medical capbadge wearing personnel."

ArmyMedic is closest to the planners and is the only one that seems to be in the loop on the progression of things. It is my hope that he keeps us informed as to the progression as I believe, as do many others in the group, that the Combat First Aid course must be taught to as many deploying troops as possible. At least Two per section for the Combat Arms and one per section for the rest of the support arms. IMHO

RadOp, the difference is who is capable and who can teach the course. I am sure that you are capable of teaching the course, I am also sure that many Infantry are capable of theaching the course. The rub here is that that is not your job in the CF. You are paid to maintain Comms, the infantry is here to seek out and close with the enemy, the medics hare here to preserve manpower. One of the ways we do our job is to teach first aid. That First aid could be SFA, it could be BTLS (PHTLS) and yes it could also be Combat First Aid.

The Medical Group is working on a standardized course and when it is done and signed off by the Surgeon General then and only then will it be taught on a wide scale.

That being said, Am I teaching the basic principals for the treatment of casualties in a tactical environment to my medics...yes. Am I teaching them the TCCC...NO because it is not an authorized course yet and I would only have to re-teach it once the official lesson plan comes out.

I hope this clarifies matters.

Edited for gramar and punctuation
 
What you said RN PRN makes sense to me and does sound like what others have said.  The only thing that gets me is how it was said by others.  I cannot nor do I disagree with yours  and armymedics assessments of the plans for TCCC training.  I was wondering what soldiers trained in the system would be able to use it here in Canada.  Your explaination makes sense to me.  As for it being your job, noted.  I wouldn't expect you to teach TCCCS WAS to your people when I run you through the system or to set up a satallite dish.  I just got focused on the statement that I couldn't understand anatomy and wouldn't be able to instruct it.  (got too focused on the slam rather than what the rest of you were all saying). 

Moving on to another question for you guys reference this topic.  Will this now be a requirement for medics who are attached to coys when they are deployed overseas?  (asking for a projection here as I know it is not adopted as of yet)  Secondly, how long is the training?
 
Let me clarify.  What was meant was that the average First Aid Instructor does not have the in depth knowledge of A & P.  It is not taught at any depth in the 1st aid instructor course.  I'm sure you are well versed in A&P.
 
Radop said:
Moving on to another question for you guys reference this topic. Will this now be a requirement for medics who are attached to coys when they are deployed overseas? (asking for a projection here as I know it is not adopted as of yet) Secondly, how long is the training?

1. From what I gather there will be (or should be) two tiers of training. the first for the Combat first aider within the combat arms sections. These being combat arms troops who are trained in first aid. Second are the medics assigned to combat arms units. These members will be trained to a higher level of intervention within the protocol. ArmyMedic perhaps you can help us out on this phase?
There may not be a necessity to train regular force med As to this level as they will function at the UMS level and rearward. therefore will not be in contact and not have to depend on the TCCC protocol. This if from my read of 1 Fd Amb SOP where the first involvement of Med tecs is at the Triage and CCP after the casualty sweep and before the Amb shuttle back to the treatment fac.

2. The training on the pilot course from 1 Fd Amb to 3 VP was two weeks long. This is ideal as it give plenty of time for repetition and a long FTX. IMHO it could be shortened by several days and several thousand dollars and still get the same result. We have had this discussion earlier in the thread.

GF
 
Two directly answer your questions.

a. no,
b. unkown, at this time, but courses run by 1 CMBG were 10 tng days long. The two courses run by 2 Fd Amb were 1 training day to qualify and some hours of refresher and skill maintenance training while overseas.

 
Armymedic said:
Two directly answer your questions.

a. no,
b. unkown, at this time, but courses run by 1 CMBG were 10 tng days long. The two courses run by 2 Fd Amb were 1 training day to qualify and some hours of refresher and skill maintenance training while overseas.

One day, wow.  Did they have any other training before that?  Like an advance first aide course?  What I read in dispatches seams like it would take at least a week! 
 
Yep 1 day. Students were to be intrested, well motivated, with a current SFA and CPR cert.

All that is taught is 4 "major" subjects, a. Concepts/tactics of TCCC, b. airway management, c. Tourniquet, and d. needle thoracotomy. The day consists of 4 classes, three skill stations, written test, practical skills confirmation and a oral test.

The course for roto 0, 39 of 40 passed, last course we ran in Nov 40% failed (IMHO because the right instructors were not avail, had a couple less experienced people teaching).

To requalify my earlier statement, it probably won't ever become a medical "qualification" for medics, as they are already allowed to do the medical skills in the course. Its more likely to be a common qualification for all members of the army (like comms, mountain ops, etc...)
 
Was the roto 0 training only given to the RCR guys as it was not even offered to us at HQ & Sigs?  We had the det on TV Hill and I don't think anyone was trained there even as a first aid instructor.  We had the guys also traveling all over Kabul on SDS runs (4 pers in 2 Veh) and my det and my cohorts was in bisons and went out alone to support combat teams doing things like raiding houses to catch bad guys.  Was this just because it was the initial training, lack of time or lack of interest by the snr staff?
 
I've taken some time tonight to review a few pages of the TCCC discussion, and I thought I would weigh in.  I was unaware of this site until one of my friends e-mailed me about it today.  Otherwise, I would have been here sooner.

First, let me say that I was the Course Director for the 1 CMBG pilot course that was held in July '03, so the comments I make are from first hand experience.

Second, I am delighted that there has been a lot of seemingly excited discussion here regarding TCCC.  That is exactly what I had hoped to achieve when we started course planning over three years ago.

Third, I am again pleased that the dispatches article that Chris Kopp wrote and I edited seems to have made its way around for general reading.

Overall, I am confident the use of TCCC principles will eventually find their neiche.  However, even after a lot of experience with the first pilot course, and moderate contact with the two subsequent courses within 1 CMBG, I can tell you that the optimal implementation of TCCC within the CF is going to be very difficult to sort out.  The reason is that it is a combined medical and tactical course.  Much of the discussion you folks have had has centred on who should be teaching the course, who should be trained, what the medical SOP's are and how TCCC should be integrated into them, optimal course duration, and the list goes on.  We had similar questions when we did the pilot and the solutions are not easy to come by.

The issue of medical SOP's is an interesting one.  First, let me say that the entire structure of medical SOP's are from the WWII / Korea era.  They simply do not work in the 360 degree threat environment that our soldiers face on many deployments.  Nor do they work with the ever more common scenario of small party tasks that occur on deployments like Afghanistan.  The medical branch simply does not have enough medics to go around to support all the activities that occur during an operation like we did in Kandahar or like is occurring in Kabul.  Recognizing the new ways the army was being employed was paramount in pushing for a new way to support the soldiers on the pointy end, and short of hiring and training enough medics so that you had one for every section of soldiers, the TCCC approach seemed a logical and necessary alternative.  Secondly, the St. John Amb FA course is woefully inadequate for the needs of today's soldiers.  I'm not telling you all anything you don't already know.

So,..... who should teach the course?  In my opinion, the course should lay the foundation for cooperation between the combat arms and their medical support.  This course is best implemented with the medical reps maintaining overwatch of the quality control ref medical aspects.  The tactical aspects need to be spearheaded by a rep of the audience you are teaching i.e. teaching tankers... you need someone who can help to insert the medical scenario into a realistic tactical scenario.  The same is true when teaching infanteers, engineers, etc.  So in many ways, each course should be different.  This is going to be difficult for the CF because of the layers of coordination and cooperation this involves.  On our pilot I was course director and an infantry officer served as course officer, and it worked well because he knew he drove the scenarios, I just supplied the medical input and oversight.  If we make this just a course about providing soldiers with intermediate medical skills, we've missed the boat entirely.  And I'll go one better,..... TCCC should be an integral part of every field exercise, large or small.  You can practice your infantry or engineer skills all you want, but when someone gets hit, you better know how to react or chaos ensues.  The experience of many militaries has shown us that.

I'm preaching here a little but I'll continue.  Should medics be required to take TCCC?  Absolutely.  Anyone who thinks medics only work at the CCP, UMS, Fd Amb levels hasn't been on a deployment in a while.  In fact I would argue that the school in Borden should have a battle school component (which suprisingly they do not).  So they may have decent medical skills but haven't once been asked to deliver those skills under realistic combat conditions  Soldier first, medic second.  Fire superiority is the best medicine.  Keep yourself from getting shot!!  Need I say more.  And furthermore, I think every medic going to a UMS with a front line combat arms unit should first have to have a TCCC course as a prerequisite.  I think the ratio of TCCC trained soldiers to non trained should probably be 1:10.  Pretty high expectations, huh?  Again, train how you fight so you will fight how you were trained.  If we deliver this training in the all too common abbreviated, just in time, typically canadian format prior to a mission, we're already behind the 8 ball. 

How long should the course be?  There are some significant interventions taught in TCCC.  Too short a course risks producing grads who are simply dangerous.  Too long if fiscially unacheivable.  IF TCCC was integrated into the regular training routine, a TCCC course could be done in 7-10 training days with the right staff.  Again, it is essential that there be an FTX component.  Otherwise, we are simply teaching a medical course.  The tactical component is just as important, if not more important to producing competent grads.

Resource issues.  They're numerous and I'm not even going to go there.

Mentality.  The biggest obstacle we face in making TCCC a success or just another painful course that you need to go on is the way in which it is delivered..... not simply the course content.  I always get very concerned when I hear people say, "I read about the components of the course, it's not that complicated".  They're right, the content is relatively straightforward medically.  The crux of the issue is developing a dynamic and realistic course that mimics the operational environment.

I could go on, but I'm sure some of you are tired of my philosophizing.  Sufficie it to say that I have concerns over the ability of the medical branch to ensure a quality product is delivered.  It is one of the many reasons I released in 2003.
When we started the TCCC initiative in 1 CMBG our ultimate goal was to get the info out to the front line soldiers.  In large part, I think that's happening.  My concern now is whether or not all of the issues above, and more, will be overcome.  My reasons for posting this e-mail are mainly to encourage you all to look closely at the end product and demand that it meet the need.  Anything else is just glorified advanced first aid.

Dr. Roger King
Ex-MO now a civi
 
Thank you for that info, Dr. , and welcome to Army.ca. I[we] hope you stick around, it can be a great source of info and stimulating "conversation".
 
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