The Agent Orange and Its Repercussions Thread

[Young KH]

Quote from George Wallace Nov, 2nd. 2005

It looks to me like you are looking for a conspiracy where there is none.  Many Newspapers, especially small ones, will empty out their basements of their old copies.  They try to find a Museum or Archives that will accept them.  In this case, you are probably looking at this practice having been done in the past, with relevant copies being sent to DND historical archives.
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Looking for a conspiracy, No we don't have to look anywhere for that. What would you call spraying ones own troops with deadly chemicals and then for close to 50 years and through many secretive Governments not a word leaks out and this from people who just love the lime light? Reporters dug, reported suspicions and were shot down with the "It never happened "defense. Even today when they only admitted to it when they were confronted with the documents from the USA about the 66 &67 Agent Orange sprayings but still won't admit to the spraying done from 1956 through 1984, even when we have the DND's on documentation of that very  spraying. If you don't believe that this is a conspiracy of silence, well there is no pill for stupidity, enough said.
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Quote from 3rd. Horseman Oct, 26th. 2005

One must remember that the substance AO and the other herbicides sprayed were legal chemicals that anyone could buy at the local hardware store and spray at home. The contention from the other thread is that it was not done on purpose that is the out of context part.
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One must also remember that bullets are legal however Canadian soldiers shouldn't expect their own Government to order them to be shot because of it. Arsenic is still legal but try feed it to your wife and just see where that lands you. No where on any label of them chemicals did it say safe for human consumption nor did it say go ahead and spray the people and on the bottles that you say was available to the general public it does say keep away from pets and wild life. I know that everything in the Army isn't safe but the troops deserved a heads up not to eat the berries, drink the water, use dead twigs to stir the food, they needed to be told not to use dried leaves to wipe their behinds and so many other things that are just taken for granted when in the field. To be warned about the dangers," We as Soldiers deserved that much."  If you can't see that, well, (There is none so blind as those that will not see."

 

[George Wallace]

Quote from George Wallace Nov, 2nd. 2005

It looks to me like you are looking for a conspiracy where there is none.   Many Newspapers, especially small ones, will empty out their basements of their old copies.   They try to find a Museum or Archives that will accept them.   In this case, you are probably looking at this practice having been done in the past, with relevant copies being sent to DND historical archives.
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Looking for a conspiracy, No we don't have to look anywhere for that. What would you call spraying ones own troops with deadly chemicals and then for close to 50 years and through many secretive Governments not a word leaks out and this from people who just love the lime light? Reporters dug, reported suspicions and were shot down with the "It never happened " defense. Even today when they only admitted to it when they were confronted with the documents from the USA about the 66 &67 Agent Orange sprayings but still won't admit to the spraying done from 1956 through 1984, even when we have the DND's on documentation of that very   spraying. If you don't believe that this is a conspiracy of silence, well there is no pill for stupidity, enough said.
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Well, if you don't come off as someone wearing a tinfoil hat, no one will.

First off READ what I was posting before going on your little tirade.   I wasn't posting on a conspiracy to hide spraying.  I was posting on the practice of newspapers cleaning out their archives.   No conspiracy there.   Small papers only have a limited amount of space in their facilities within which to operate.   From time to time they have to clean out their basements in order for more recent and pertinant news to be archived.   If they can, they send these items to any museum (or Archives) that may be interested in keeping it.   Don't forget that these museums also have limited space and must also weed out what they deem unimportant, duplicate, or not relevant to their mandates.  

Now.  In over thirty years of service, I have never ever been sprayed in any way, shape or form, as you insinuate as being "common practice".

 

[Sandy Skipton]

Fact: Soldiers experimentally exposed to Mustard Gas, please note how long they fought for recognition,  while the Government said it did not happen....    http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/05/11/canada/mustard040511
Fact: Agent Orange, Agent Purple sprayed at Gagetown during 66-67  admitted to by DND Jun23,2005 
Fact: Same, or more dangerous Chemicals sprayed 1956-1984  reported in DND doc #A-2004-00207  Government does not believe their own files?
Fact: accidental over spray    reported in DND doc  #A-2004-00207
Fact: Brig/Gen Sellars is accepted as being ill due to exposure to Agent Orange, yet DVA drag their feet in accepting that his troops were as well?
Fact: DND admits spraying in 66-67 and basements are cleared out of papers prior to April 68?

Just a few facts that show that Soldiers have been used in experiments and that they have been sprayed by dangerous chemicals. To show how long it takes to have the Government admit to their behaviour. Show the Government their own papers and they continue to say it did not happen... DND said they had no record of who went thru Gagetown and then come up with what they say are facts and figures, within days? Government sets aside $800,000 of citizen $s to investigate what they say never happened?  DVA ask DND to find the history files for CFB Chatham and have no luck? (and that is a fact btw)

I think there are a lot of question marks.. and all we want to know is "Does anyone out there have any copies of The Gagetown Gazette from prior to April 1968" and we did not say that DND took those papers, the staff said they believe the papers were turned over to DND at their request. All we are saying is we are looking for truth and that is what we want the government to do too.

Now an update on my husbands autopsy... It was found he died of extensive bronchopneumonia. The underlying cause of death was extensive LargeCell Carcinoma of uncertain origin... so I am still in the twilight zone of the uncertain, the unknown, and still questioning...

 

[Michael Dorosh]

hmmm.. I find it interesting that 3rd Horseman would comment that he was not there... and he served under those that were... Brig/General Sellars was a leader there and he died due to AO...

Sorry, was this Gordon Sellars?  If so, he was a Calgary Highlander during WW II, and he only passed away like a year ago - so Agent Orange cut his life short at, well, like, 80 years or so....

 

[armyvern]

What would you call spraying ones own troops with deadly chemicals and then for close to 50 years

While those chemicals were being used it was unknown that they were 'deadly.' Holy crap, everybody in this damn town was spraying their lawns with weed killer throughout the 70s & 80s while I grew up here. Most of those chemicals are now banned due to their being hazardous. During my first posting here in the mid-90s people were still spraying their lawns with weed killer (most types now also banned). So was the base. When it became known that these were indeed hazardous, the Base ceased using them and guess what? The local hardware stores also pulled them off their shelves. Looking for conspiracies? Look at mercury fillings, silicone implants etc etc. All very legal substances to use at the time just a 3rd Horseman points out. When the health effects are found out, the bulk of the crap gets pulled off the market and out of distribution. 25 years down the road, I'm quite sure that we'll be hearing about something else, currently in use throughout our workplace and our homes, is/was bad for our health. I don't call that a conspiracy, I call it health effects which take time to appear, and when they do, usage stops.

One must also remember that bullets are legal however Canadian soldiers shouldn't expect their own Government to order them to be shot because of it. Arsenic is still legal but try feed it to your wife and just see where that lands you.

This is an assinine statement. You would be committing a crime by doing this. Funny, my dad while serving here during your quoted time periods of 66/67 (actually was here from 66-74) never once got intentionally 'sprayed down with chemicals' nor unintentionally for that matter. He doesn't even recall meeting/serving with a person who claimed to have been intentionally sprayed down until recently.

No where on any label of them chemicals did it say safe for human consumption nor did it say go ahead and spray the people and on the bottles that you say was available to the general public it does say keep away from pets and wild life.

They were stupid enough to consume this?? Give me a break. The health effects were not known at the time, and once again, as soon as they were the labels went on or the crap was pulled off the market.

I know that everything in the Army isn't safe but the troops deserved a heads up not to eat the berries, drink the water, use dead twigs to stir the food, they needed to be told not to use dried leaves to wipe their behinds and so many other things that are just taken for granted when in the field. To be warned about the dangers," We as Soldiers deserved that much."  

Yes, "Caution coffee is HOT!!" There is an investigation currently going on here and testing being done by a few different "independant" companies....I think I'll wait for it's results before posting unwarranted scare tactics such as poisoning due to stirring my coffee with a stick almost 40 years later.

If you can't see that, well, (There is none so blind as those that will not see."

Thanks, I'll remain blind...until the evidence is in. We do that in this country....

As for the gashing of the Gazette...it is common practise for small town papers to keep archived items for a period of 25 years. Therefore, by my estimate, the last Gazette would have disappeared by the wayside in 1993 when it's copy would have been 25 years old, if DND was in fact keeping with their civilian counterparts in this respect. This was common practise for ALL base newspapers, not just Gagetown's. It would not have been fiched (this began in 68) as it was not a Community paper. I am unsure as to the exact year that DND began fiching it's Base Papers, but the great majority began doing this post 1970....so if you think that is proof of anything, then I guess every single Base is on the cover-up as well, because you won't be finding to many issues of strictly Base papers fiched for the same years as your missing evidence.

 

[Sandy Skipton]

http://www.rmcclub.ca/eVeritas/2005/Issue018/200518Sellar.htm

I have no idea of Brig/Gen Sellar's age. Does it matter? The fact is that DVA accepted his claim of his illness due to Agent Orange exposure at CFB Gagetown yet are dragging their feet accepting claims from troops he commanded. He also commanded the Black Watch regiment at Gagetown during the 60s.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

http://www.rmcclub.ca/eVeritas/2005/Issue018/200518Sellar.htm

I have no idea of Brig/Gen Sellar's age. Does it matter? The fact is that DVA accepted his claim of his illness due to Agent Orange exposure at CFB Gagetown yet are dragging their feet accepting claims from troops he commanded. He also commanded the Black Watch regiment at Gagetown during the 60s.

Of course it matters; the death of a guy living into his 80s is not proof in and of itself that he was poisoned when he was in his 40s...you said he died directly as a result of his exposure, but given that he lived 40 more years, the claim is a little less impactful than if he keeled over the next day.

 

[Young KH]

Of course it matters; the death of a guy living into his 80s is not proof in and of itself that he was poisoned when he was in his 40s...you said he died directly as a result of his exposure, but given that he lived 40 more years, the claim is a little less impactful than if he keeled over the next day.

That's the whole point, because we don't die quickly enough for everyone we have no clame. The problem isn't so much the dieing but the many years of illnesses.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

That's the whole point, because we don't die quickly enough for everyone we have no clame. The problem isn't so much the dieing but the many years of illnesses.

And the proof that the illness was directly attributable to the AO, and that the government should reasonably have known that would result when it was being used at the time.

 

[Young KH]

And the proof that the illness was directly attributable to the AO, and that the government should reasonably have known that would result when it was being used at the time.

And what the heck does " the government should reasonably have known that would result when it was being used ," have to do with it. It was done to soldiers while they were in the forces and that should be all the proof needed.

 

[Sandy Skipton]

I am amazed at the lack of comprehension when reading. I take great care when I post facts and turning my words into something from the 'fog zone' must only be due to fact that Mr Dorosh, and maybe others, really don't care what they post but that they just post for the sake of posting.

Mr. Dorosh, nothing was said about what Brig/Gen Sellar's ultimate cause of death was. My comment was that he, as a commander, won his claim fight with DVA. Why then is DVA dragging their feet about settling claims for the troops he was commanding at the time of his exposure? Lets add a question.
Did Brig/Gen Sellar go thru this exercise of fighting for compensation for himself or for his troops? I did not know the man but I have read about him and developed respect for him. I venture to say he had compassion for those he commanded. I would further venture to say he fought for compensation to prove exactly what happened 40 years ago.
Is DVA waiting for the troops, in this case, to suffer for as many years and die, before their exposure and contamination is recognized?

Yes this has taken a long time for this exposure to come to light and that has been due to the fact that the government denied and lied about the spaying for so many years. The spraying took place in the 60s and it took until July 2005 for the government to FINALLY admit to what we have known for years.

Hide your head in the sand. Read only the words you want to see. Take the ME out of the word assume and continue to post rapidly to see your own words. I am more than willing to have indepth discussion on this topic but I will not have untrue words added to my posts by anyone that posts just to see their total posts quota climb... THANK YOU

 

[armyvern]

A copy of the "Fact Finding Mission Tasks" for the different independant Civilian Contractor's who have been hired to perform the soil samples, digging etc throughout Gagetown. This was an interesting read and I noted that not only were these independant contractor's reviewing/testing from the 66/67 AO/AP sprayings, but were actually reviewing the use and spraying of ALL pesticides used throughout Gagetown from 1952 to the present. Studies are also being conducted with the towns surrounding the Gagetown trg area to determine if cancer levels, etc have/are occurring in higher concentrations than in 'control areas.' I think the results of these studies will be interesting to say the least and await their reports:

http://www.basegagetownandareafactfindersproject.ca/task3.html

Vern

 

[Doreen]

Mr. Dorosh:  I am not here to either agree or disagree with you.  I am far to fatigued to argue.  I can only tell you the facts.  One of the facts is that 20 to 30 years after exposure G. Sellars widow was awarded a pension from DVA.  I do know that he was diagnosed at least 15 years prior to that time.  I was diagnosed with the same type of leukemia as G. Sellars.  I was diagnosed 29 years after spending three years at CFB Gagetown.  The type and form of Leukemia that he had and that I have is an extremely rare form of leukemia.  The rarest form known to man and only identified in 1980.  It is the T Cell variety of leukemia.  I am certainly not 80 or close to it.  I was 31 years old when I left Gagetown and was diagnosed on my 60th birthday.  Happy Birthday to me.  Did Agent Orange, Agent Purple or Agent White have anything to do with my leukemia?  We'll see.  I have had an unusual white cell count since 1975 and at that time started having all kinds of wierd things happen to my body, including a compulsory hysterectomy at age 36.  Enough..............I'm tired.  I doubt very much that I will live to see the outcome of all of this but I feel that once in awhile I just need to voice my concerns.  If nothing else happens I do hope that my children and grandchildren receive some compensation.  They are losing their mother and grandmother far, far too young.  My newest is only 1 1/2 and it breaks my heart that she won't ever remember me.  I will be gone before she is old enough to remember.

 

[3rd Horseman]

Sorry to all who have ill health I trust you will get your answers and hopfully gain better health.

  The results should be in from the latest round of testing shortly I hope you don't have to wait very long to hear them. They have been done in similar fashion to the first two investigations and I would suggest the result will be the same. Possibly the problems with dioxin health issues comes from the power lines that were sprayed or the rail beds or the school playgrounds or the ditches and country roads. The entire country was sprayed, Irving still sprays to this day! I doubt the training area spray had much to with anything unless you worked on the crews, I'm sure the results will mirror the last two investigations and I hope that you all can look elswere for the nature of your illnesses and get the help and better health you deserve.

 

[STONEY]

I noticed today that there is a report in the paper about people from across Canada from both metro area's and wilderness area's  had there blood & urine tested and they all had tested positive for cancer causing comtaminates. It appears everyone is in the same boat.
  A few years ago i watched a airline pilot being interviewed who was a former military pilot that actually sprayed agent orange at Gagetown. He told of spraying from a helo with the doors off so he could see better,and routinely would finish his day soaked to the skin with spray from backdraft and would have to wring out  his flight suit . He since became a airline pilot which requires strict medical exams and he still today has perfect health.  Some people smoke all there lives and don't get lung cancer others smoke 1 pack when they were 15 and get lung cancer 20 years later and blame tobaco.
    Ammunition manufacturers test there products on their own ranges and their workers are  routinely exposed to DU ammo for 20 years and have fine health but a soldier exposed to DU for a few hours claim it causes health problems. Children's Hospital's are full of young children who have'nt been to either Gagetown or a combat zone yet suffer the same problems that we like to blame on the military. Is our health just a big lotto or is it just easier to blame someone else in our anger. Who can say,certainly not i,but others will never take no for an answer.

In Flanders fields the poppies grow..........  Remember!!!

 

[Sandy Skipton]

Information for those that might be interested....

November 14, 2005
From: Art Connolly
UPDATE
The Standing Committee On National Defence and Veteran Affairs will be meeting on November 17, 2005 at 3:30 PM Eastern Time on Parliament Hill in Ottawa Ontario. Invited to speak at the meeting is Ken Dobbie, Gloria Sellar, Jody Carr MLA, Wayne Cardinal and yours truly Art Connolly
It is my understanding that CPAC will be broadcasting the meeting on its internet simulcast located at
http://parlvu.parl.gc.ca/parlvuen%2Dca/Guide.aspx?viewmode=1&categoryid=-1&currentdate=2005-11-17&_eventid=-1&languagecode=12298
It is listed under NDDN Meeting at 3:30 PM. (OttawaTimeZone)
Any more information will be updated as it is known.

 

[Sandy Skipton]

Meeting time for SCONDVA (concerning Chemical Exposure at Gagetown during 50s-80s) has changed, approximately 10 witnesses have been called to Ottawa to my knowledge. It is expected that the "Standing Committee on National Defense and Veterans Affairs" will be broadcast via internet and can be located at:

http://parlvu.parl.gc.ca/parlvuen%2Dca/Guide.aspx?viewmode=0&categoryid=184&currentdate=2005-11-17&eventid=-1&languagecode=12298

Rather interesting that the day prior to the SCONDVA meeting it was reported that Dr Furlong, former Minister of Health Prov of NewBrunswick, Co-chair is to be Karen Ellis, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Infrastructure and Environment for National Defence. http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1811

When the victims are asking for a transparent and public investigation, we recognize that Dr Furlong was the  Provincial Conservative in NB (Minister of Health)... but I have to ask if Karen Ellis was assigned as co-chair to look after the interests of the Liberal Government and DND as this investigation progresses? On Jun 23, Karen Ellis represented DND during the meeting that was held in the theatre at Gagetown and at that time she seemed to have no particular expertise or knowledge concerning the topic and displayed shock and surprise at the information that the victims could produce from DND files.

 

[armyvern]

When the victims are asking for a transparent and public investigation, we recognize that Dr Furlong was the   Provincial Conservative in NB (Minister of Health)... but I have to ask if Karen Ellis was assigned as co-chair to look after the interests of the Liberal Government and DND as this investigation progresses?

Well, if that's the case I guess it's 50/50 isn't it? That seems more than fair to me. But I've got to ask...even if it was 2 conservative MPs doing this....if they come back and say it's not related to AO/AP etc...are you going to be satisfied with that answer? I didn't think so.
No matter who oversees anything having to do with this, and no matter how impartial they are; you will only be satisfied with one outcome and that is a finding in favour of yourselves.
So why stress about it now? Sit back, see what happens...hopefully you get the outcome that you desire.

 

[Sandy Skipton]

Armyvern, I have read your profile and I understand it to say that you are serving in Gagetown at this time?
Perhaps you don't realize just how long I/we have been waiting for this to end. We have taken a stand for our younger military members.
My Dear (I can say that cause I am twice your age) Canadians have sat back long enough and on this topic. We will NOT sit back. NO!!, we will fight so that the younger generation will never have to live through what we have and I sure hope that younger generation will show backbone when it comes to their turn to stand up. Yesterday we heard that the Chemical testing being done in Gagetown is not for our generation but instead it is to make sure that Gagetown is safe for all those that are working and training there today... so while you SIT BACK and protect the citizens of Canada, we will step forward to attempt to protect you.... and I sure hope you NEVER sit back and await an outcome of any battle....
btw... This topic pertains to ALL Chemical Sprayings, not just AO/AP/AW 

 

[armyvern]

Armyvern, I have read your profile and I understand it to say that you are serving in Gagetown at this time?
Perhaps you don't realize just how long I/we have been waiting for this to end. We have taken a stand for our younger military members.

Thank you.

My Dear (I can say that cause I am twice your age)

This is OK. I have no problems with people calling me dear, sweetie, whatever. Things like this do not offend me, I take them in context, and I respect my elders.

Canadians have sat back long enough and on this topic. We will NOT sit back. NO!!, we will fight so that the younger generation will never have to live through what we have and I sure hope that younger generation will show backbone when it comes to their turn to stand up. Yesterday we heard that the Chemical testing being done in Gagetown is not for our generation but instead it is to make sure that Gagetown is safe for all those that are working and training there today... so while you SIT BACK and protect the citizens of Canada, we will step forward to attempt to protect you....

Perhaps you've taken my remarks out of context here, I said relax as well and that it seemed 50/50 which means evenly split which I take to = fair. You threw in a little commentary that made it seem like you were claiming a conspiracy was in the works. I just pointed out with 1 liberal/1 conservative, that would tend to rule out what your comment was implying.

and I sure hope you NEVER sit back and await an outcome of any battle....

Hey I grew up here, my dad was posted here during the questioned time periods for the AO etc...and lket me just re-assure you that I have never in my life sat back and waited for anything, nor do I have any plans to.

btw... This topic pertains to ALL Chemical Sprayings, not just AO/AP/AW  

I realize this, ergo the reason I said

AO/AP etc...

. Perhaps, if you read the whole thread you will also find that I make mention of other chemicals in my other posts. There's hundreds, AO/AP etc does fine for me, I'm not going to waste bandwidth listing them all each time.
Are you accusing me of not supporting you or my fellow soldiers? Because I believe that you missed the very last sentance of my post you're quoting above...

hopefully you get the outcome that you desire.