The C7 Assault Rifle, M16, & AR15 family (C7A1, C7A2, C7 replacment, and C7 vs M16)

[xFusilier]

Some people use the old FN FAL mag pouches

1. The Canadian Army has never used the FN FAL

2. The 30 round C7 magazine, will not fit into the 20 round magazine pouches for the C1 Rifle. Some people are issued magazine pouches for the 30 round C2 magazines, largely due to the fact that they were issued by someone who didn‘t know the difference between a C2 and a C7 magazine pouch.

 

[D-n-A]

Originally posted by xFusilier:
[qb]

Some people use the old FN FAL mag pouches

1. The Canadian Army has never used the FN FAL [/qb]

Are you sure..

I believe the C1(the brits called it the L1A1) is a FN FAL, just C1 was the designation the CF gave it.

The C2 is a heavy barrel version of the C1, for use as a LMG

Originally posted by CI Phlipster:
[qb]newest one is just the C7 pouch with the nade loops and snaps buttons.
So far, they only fit 2. Unless you remove the divder? Does it allow from one more? [/qb]

I got the smaller 30 round mag pouch w/ grenade holders(some of the other ones with grenade holders I‘ve seen are taller), with no divider, and only 2 magazines can fit into it.

 

[CI Dumaran]

Originally posted by D-n-A:
[qb]

Originally posted by xFusilier:
[qb]

Some people use the old FN FAL mag pouches

1. The Canadian Army has never used the FN FAL [/qb]

Are you sure..

I believe the C1(the brits called it the L1A1) is a FN FAL, just C1 was the designation the CF gave it.

The C2 is a heavy barrel version of the C1, for use as a LMG

Originally posted by CI Phlipster:
[qb]newest one is just the C7 pouch with the nade loops and snaps buttons.
So far, they only fit 2. Unless you remove the divder? Does it allow from one more? [/qb]

I got the smaller 30 round mag pouch w/ grenade holders(some of the other ones with grenade holders I‘ve seen are taller), with no divider, and only 2 magazines can fit into it. [/qb]

There were and are numerous CF designations C1... items range from weapons to tent covers...

Yes, I did believe that the FAL was the non-CF designation.

 

[D-n-A]

Originally posted by CI Phlipster:
[qb]

Originally posted by D-n-A:
[qb]

Originally posted by xFusilier:
[qb]

Some people use the old FN FAL mag pouches

1. The Canadian Army has never used the FN FAL [/qb]

Are you sure..

I believe the C1(the brits called it the L1A1) is a FN FAL, just C1 was the designation the CF gave it.

The C2 is a heavy barrel version of the C1, for use as a LMG

Originally posted by CI Phlipster:
[qb]newest one is just the C7 pouch with the nade loops and snaps buttons.
So far, they only fit 2. Unless you remove the divder? Does it allow from one more? [/qb]

I got the smaller 30 round mag pouch w/ grenade holders(some of the other ones with grenade holders I‘ve seen are taller), with no divider, and only 2 magazines can fit into it. [/qb]

There were and are numerous CF designations C1... items range from weapons to tent covers...

Yes, I did believe that the FAL was the non-CF designation. [/qb]

Yea, I‘m sure theres plenty of stuff with the C1 designation, so? I‘m talking about the rifle.

The company that made the FAL is Fabrique National, they called the rifle the FN FAL, Canada called it the C1, the Brits called it the L1A1, the Aussies I think called it the L1A1 too.

 

[Da_man]

what about the cleaning kit?

 

[smgcon]

The FN FAL is the metric rifle on which Canada based the FN C1. The C1 and later C1A1 is an inch pattern file, like the British and Australian L1 rifles. Canada developed the rifles at Canadian Arsenals Ltd, and the British and Australian rifles adopted many of the Canadian refinements. Canadian Arsenals was closed by the Government not long after delivering the last C1A1 rifles.

 

[Scratch_043]

Does anyone know the Product number/serial designation for the new PRR radio systems?

 

[CI Dumaran]

Ahh, that cleared a lot up thanks Gaucher.

 

[Redeye]

Originally posted by CI Phlipster:
[qb] Some people use the old FN FAL mag pouches... They are shorter and a touch wider. The C7 pouch is the more slender of the two and has dividers and a pull up strap for each.
I believe that the newest one is just the C7 pouch with the nade loops and snaps buttons.
So far, they only fit 2. Unless you remove the divder? Does it allow from one more? [/qb]

The pouches with the dividers are old - at any opportunity most people swap them for the newer pouches which don‘t have the silly divider, and have grenade loops. There has never, that I know of, been a conscious effort to ensure they all get replaced, but most troops in my unit have gotten rid of the old ones.

My biggest gripe is that there is no easy way to close them quickly on an attack or the like, and it leads to a greater risk of loosing a mag. The new TV addresses this with the Fastex and velcro combination - hopefully before too long they‘ll be in general use throughout the CF.

By the way, FAL = Fusil Automatique Légère, which was Fabrique Nationale‘s term for the rifle. The C1 and C2 were licensed product-improved variants, just as the C7 is of the M16.

 

[CI Dumaran]

I prefer the good‘ol strap and buckle to velcro which was loud... I‘m sure someone has put fastex clips on an old mag pouch.

 

[armyguy916]

Vigilant,
You might want to time your C7 the next time you fire a full mag on auto, or even ready the C7 PAM because you will see that the time for the complete unload of a 30 round mag downrange on full auto is around 4.5 seconds. 

 

[BDTyre]

Full automatic fire from a weapon works great when you have a stationary weapon and are facing a charge line from the enemy.   Think trench warfare situation, or storming a beach.   People realized the usefulness of a fully automatic weapon in these situations and hence have changed tactics to avoid letting the enemy gain this advantage.

I should also add that the Americans liked full automatic in Vietnam where they would do recon-by-fire: squads or even platoons would fire full auto into treelines or bushes and hope they hit the enemy.  They would advance forward (I believe by section) while this was going on, using grenades in addtion to wide-coverage rifle and machine gun fire, trying to kill the enemy or flush him out.  (It usually didn't work).

 

[Military Brat]

The official DND website states that the C7A1 Assault Rifle can discharge 740 to 900 rounds per minute, so that means that at best it could discharge a magazine in 2 second flat and at worse it could discharge a magazine at just over 2.4 seconds. No? Maybe my math is wrong.

Anyways, I think, as long as the troops are disciplined enough not to empty a mag downrange in the opening seconds of a firefight, the ability to empty a mag with one pull of the trigger can't be a bad thing. It would probably have to be used very rarely, but at least troops would have the option in their bag of tricks if the need ever arose.

 

[Mike Bobbitt]

Let's not go off topic here... we're all familiar with Canadian (and American) manners already.

 

[armyguy916]

Military Brat, your math is completely right, I agree with you, but last year on my 2A course when we were doing the small arms coaching portion, that was the figure we were given.  The rate that the website gives is true, but you have to take into consideration many variables including changing a mag, which takes a few seconds, but oh well.  I'm not gonna get into a 'screaming' match of posting back and forth, its pointless, just count the next time you have the chance to do that.  I agree with the post that stated we should be more disciplined to be doing that anyways.  Waste of ammo, and we aren't gonna hit anything.  Which is why I would rather be on the end of the C6, firing rounds  :fifty:

 

[atticus]

I read a newspaper article awhile back that stated that the US army did have trouble with soldiers emptying their magazines in one burst and thats why they switched over to the 3 bullet burst.
I just looked at my papers I got on the C7A1 rifle from reserve bmq and it states that it will empty the mag in 2.1 seconds.
Just a side question: does the british SA80 have full automatic fire or three bullet burst?

 

[chriscalow]

Has anyone out there heard of an "Aussie peelback"?  (I think thats what it's called), you do it when your trying to break contact with the enemy while keeping their heads down.  I only heard of it once (from a reservist), and never since.  But it sounded like it would work great.  Maybe someone out there could explain it better than I can, so I'll let them before I try.  The reason I ask is because I was led to believe that you use full auto.

 

[48Highlander]

There are many different lines of thought on the "aussie peelback".  Some people swear by it, others think it's a waste of time and ammo.  It's employed usually as an immediate reaction to either the front man setting off a trip-flare, or walking into heavy fire (which is basically the same thing anyway:  trip-flares are "always" covered by machinegun fire).  The idea is to put as much ammo down range as possible while the patrol peels backwards in order to keep the enemy's heads down and discourage them from following.  Might seem like a good idea, but, depending on how many enemy are on the other end, and what type of weapons they're using, you may be better off just running away as fast as your legs will take you.

As for the other speculation on what full auto is good for:  Canadian doctrine for FIBUA (OBUA) used to be that when entering a room you'd throw in a granade, wait for it to detonate, then 2 men would immediately enter and empty their magazines into the room.  Due to the fact that on most of the recent missions, troops have had to clear rooms/buildings which may be full of civilians, we are no longer supposed to do that.  However, it IS much more effective/safer than going in with a flashbang and trying to doubletap whoever pops up before they have a chance to pump a few rounds into you.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Atticcus wrote:

Just a side question: does the british SA80 have full automatic fire or three bullet burst?
Single and full auto are the modes of fire for the L85.

 

[Goober]

About the M16A2, the US Army long had a deeply entrenched and historical view which argued that carefully aimed, long-range rifle fire is superior to the high-volume but largely unaimed bursts of automatic weapons. Those who argued for aimed fire believed that good marksmanship and judicious control win battles and conserve ammunition.

The M16A1 was actually a full auto rifle, but the US Army made a few improvements and decided to go with the 3 round burst and remove full auto for the reasons mentioned above.

The C7, or C7A1 (scoped) is made by Diemaco (www.diemaco.com) and is a modified M16A2.