The C7 Assault Rifle, M16, & AR15 family (C7A1, C7A2, C7 replacment, and C7 vs M16)

[Master Blaster]

GPig;
The receiver dents that you refer to are the result of using the A3 collapsible stock that has been in the system for some time. It‘s an armourers job to take out the dents with a formed mandrel supplied by the manufacturer. As the weapon wears, the stock has a tendency to cause the rear area of the receiver to become misshapen and cause some failuers to feed and extract. It is an easy fix to a problem known for some time. This is part and parcel of the regularly scheduled maintenance of the KH SMG/rifle system.

The mythical quality you refer to is far from mythical...you point the weapon at what you wish to destroy; it‘s dead. Simple, straightfoward and deadly. Easy to train both inexperienced and skilled shooters in load/clear/IA‘s, a controllable rate of fire and a flash signature that is nothing compared to the way an M4 lights up the country side.

I don‘t really want to get in a pissing match as to the ‘best‘ weapon because there isn‘t one. What ever works best in the deadly confrontational environment where you happen to encounter live targets is the best at the time.

A skilled soldier/LEO with the weapon he is most secure with will devastate any other individual with any other weapons system. A prime example is the sniper. Another example is Assault teams from Law Eenforcement HERT groups or Covert Ops teams. Intimate knowledge of the capabilities of the weaponry they apply at the target designated by the operational requirement.

If you truly want to be impressed by the destructive capacity of a sub 20mm automatic weapon, check out the GPMG teams from the northern Scottish islands called the Orkneys...the best that the Brits have ever produced reside in the Regiment known as "The Highlanders" (formerly the Seaforth, Glengarry and Camerons). To watch them lay, engage and destroy targets well beyond the specifications established originally by FN with the MAG58 is a joy to behold. It makes this old soldier a little moist in the corner of at least one eye.

All the Best

Dileas Gu Brath

 

[fortuncookie5084]

As promised I am posting Diemaco‘s answers to my questions. My e-mail to them is at the bottom, and confirms the post that said our rifle is better.

Hi Steve
I apologize for not answering sooner. I‘m afraid I have been avoiding the
alligators chewing on my ankles to take care of the ones feeding higher up.
To answer your questions as presented:
The effective range published does not have much to do with the barrel but
is an infantry doctrine distance to do with the whole system including the
man, sights, weapon ammunition and expected employment. So when you see
effective range, it is almost always a subjective assessment of the system
capability derived by the user instructor (CTC) and rifle requirements
office (DLR), usually before the weapon is even bought. In the case of the
C7 it included iron sights and was extended (I think) when the C79 sight and
the C7A1 came along. The reference to the rifles origins (M16A1E1) is in
reference to the sight option first chosen by the CF. The heavy front
profile, 1 turn in 7inch barrel is definitely M16A2. As is the cartridge
deflector, handguards and many other changes.

Now lets talk barrels:
The C7 barrel is not the same as any M16 barrel except for the exterior
profile which is M16A2. The Material is to a formula developed here in
Diemaco (under Gov‘t contract) so that the entire bore and chamber
configuration can be integrally formed in one operation on a rotary hammer
forge. This process produces a barrel that is much stronger than the US
M16A2 barrel. The bore dimensions were developed to fire C77 ammunition,
(Chamber, bullet lead, diameters) the bore has dimensional reduction as the
bullet moves forward (squeeze) to increase life and accuracy. The bore is
plated with harder chrome than the M16. This allows greater wear life (2 to
3 times M16) and lets us machine C9 barrels from the same barrel blank. The
SFW was recently tested and purchased by the UK special forces and won in
competition against the Swiss SIG series rifles and the H&K G36 rifle. This
barrel is now in use by the Special Forces in five countries and the US Navy
Seals have expressed interest in putting them in the M4 Carbines that they
have.
We have just completed a C8 Carbine upgrade program for Canada which is a
new barrel with an improved chamber and stronger extractor spring assembly
and a weaker ejector spring. These are the same internal configuration as
our very successful SFW barrel.

Differences:
The C7 rifle and C8 Carbine is made under license with a Tech Data Package
provided by Colt to the Canadian Gov‘t. Diemaco reviewed the design and
made about 150 changes to the drawing package before Canadian production.
These are to numerous to mention her but include things like materials and
processes as well as a different barrel configuration and manufacturing
processes.

The improved handguard we designed here after CWO John Ginn kept beating the
Colt version off the weapon on the parade square. You probably can‘t tell
from the outside but if the you take the handguard off, you will notice two
types. The improved version has two large ribs under the heat shield and
three interlocking ribs on either edge as well as different material. These
were introduced late in the program so they had to be interchangable and be
a good match with the old handguard.

Another change you may notice is the small diameter front sight post that we
developed when soldiers complained that the US large square one actually
obscured the target at ranges of 300 and greater.

I hope this helps you with the discussion and thank you for your interest in
the C7.

Ian Anderson
ILS Supervisor
Product Engineering Dept.
Diemaco a division of Heroux- Devtek

Please note: Any opinions expressed or implied in this email are personal
are not necessarily those of Heroux Devtek or Diemaco


> Subject: C7 barrel
>
> Dear Diemaco,
>
> There is an ongoing debate between myself and a few buddies regarding
>
> the C7‘s barrel. On one side, there are those who believe that Canada‘s
> C7
> inherited the M16A1‘s barrel, as evidenced by the 400M effective range
> advertised on this and the Army DND websites. On the other side, there
> are
> others who believe that the C7 has the "heavy" barrel found on the current
>
> US rifles, the M16A2‘s and A3‘s (despite the Diemaco website saying that
> the
> C7 is an offspring of the M16A1E1), though the effective range of the
> M16A2
> is advertised at 550-600M (not 400M).
>
> Please provide the information on the C7 barrel for only information
> on
> the manufacturer‘s authority can settle our argument! Also highlight any
> distinctively Canadian features on the C7 as compared to its American
> counterpart.
>
> Thank you

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Good work fortunecookie. That should finally put the matter to rest. As an aside, I just returned from the LFCA/ORA Small Arms Competition in Borden this weekend. I can attest a large number of shooters posted impressive scores at 500 meters with the issue rifle and scope including some perfect scores. And the targets were fig 12 & 11‘s!

 

[JRMACDONALD]

FOrtunecookie5084- I am not worthy. You have produced more tech data than I ve seen since this rifle got issued. GOOD ON YOU!

 

[ender]

recceeguy,
I was at the ORA shoot too. I had a lot of fun and learned a lot. Didn‘t do too well, since I have basicly 0 experience shooting (just QL2 rifle range) and I had to zero my rifle there, but I think I‘l do a lot better next time. And I can attest it is perfectly possible for a fairly new shooter to hit the target at 500.
You probably saw me there. (I mean, there wern‘t too many females shooting)

It‘s too bad more units don‘t put in shooting teams. It‘s a great way to actually learn how to shoot and to talk to other shooters. And supposudly the pistol competition is a lot of fun. I find it hard to believe that there are infantry units that don‘t send teams there.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

ender,
I think I did see you, at breakfast. Your dad, a MCpl was introducing you to another table. Short, dark hair, just above the shoulder, about 5‘ 7" and the trooper stripe on your right sleeve is a little cockeyed?
It‘s good to see new shooters not afraid to shoot competition and gain experience, you will only get better. You probably learned more about shooting that weekend than in your whole time in so far. Good for you, keep it up and glad you had a great time. Don‘t back off and wait for the next one, keep practicing and with your Dad being the musketry NCO, he should be able to push for a full time team with more practice and bullets. Keep it up and we‘ll see you next year!

 

[Soldier of Fortune]

I found this pic and I‘m wondering what type of rifle (sniper, assualt) and what parts of the CF use it. Also when did it come out.

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfile/1100/1135.htm

 

[enfield]

Your link is bad, but I took the time to find it on the Security Arms website. The C7 5.56 precision shooting rifle with flash hider and flash supressor?

To my knowledge the CF does not use this rifle. Just because Diemaco makes it doesn‘t mean the CF uses it - check out diecmaco.com, there‘s a ton of weird wepaons on there.

 

[Soldier of Fortune]

Hmmm... link worked for me.
O, well, thanks for looking it up anyways.

Not to start an argument or anything, but it does say "Canadian Precision Rifle," as if it is refering to it being used by Canada, just as it does with the rest of them.

 

[Roko]

hmm... It‘s an offshoot of the C7 rifle..
Does anyone other than the CF use the plain C7?

I personally like the c8 Carbine the best.. now that‘s a fine weapon.

 

[enfield]

check out www.diemaco.com
Currently the Dutch military is equipped with the C7, except only their SF gets the elcan sight. I believe they also use the C8, and the C9 (except diemaco doesn‘t make them).
Brit special forces use the C8 Special Forces Weapon.
Anyways, read the diemaco website... they export quite a lot. And the precision rifle is not used by anybody, it‘s simply made here. It‘s defintley not the CF sniper weapon, and it‘s not in a infantry platoon.

 

[Garett]

The C7CT (or something very similar) is being phased into the army as a personal weapon for the spotter in the sniper/spotter team. I got to play with it a couple of weeks ago when the two Sgt.s working for the Infantry side of Clothe The Soldier came into our armouries to show us all the new kit along with some new weapons including the c7m203, c8, a cut down c8 (yeah even smaller) with a red dot sight, C7CT (or whatever the hell it was) and the McMillan .50cal sniper rifle. I guess the new 5.56 sniper rifle may also be phased into all Inf platoons. Each platoon would include 1 sharpshooter armed with the C7CT. The reason I‘m not sure if it was the C7CT is because the C7CT is semi-auto only and the rifle I saw had full-auto on the selector. It had just a regular barrel too, not with all that crap on it. It had a big *** optical sight also.

 

[Soldier of Fortune]

I was goin to say, slap a scope on that thing it it would probably make a good sniper rifle

 

[Yard Ape]

5.56 mm sniper rifle?! Even on an accurate weapon that bullet is not accurate beyond 600m. It is too easily affected by wind and other atmospheric conditions.

Yard Ape

 

[Doug VT]

That‘s right, a 5.56 sniper rifle is nothing more than the standard C7, which would be just as effective in the right hands. The only real improvement would be a heavy barrel.

 

[Garett]

Yeah the 5.56 round would lack any real power. But you gotta remember its the weapon for the spotter not the sniper. Its not supposed to replace the C3, another weapon is replacing that.

 

[towhey]

In asymmetrical operations, it may be very useful to have designated "marksmen" in each platoon equipped with a more accurate rifle than the standard rifleman.

The Israeli Defence Force does this, fielding a coupfle of marksmen with mini-sniper rifles in each rifle platoon. These soldiers don‘t use a sniper rifle proper -- merely a more accurate assault rifle with a bonafide sight.

The concerns re: accuracy of 5.56 mm ammunition at long range are valid. However, as the IDF employs them, I don‘t believe these marksmen are used in a sniper role -- they‘re just very good shots, used to engage individual targets at traditional infantry ranges, especially in built-up areas, and especially under restrictive rules of engagement (i.e. peacekeeping, aid to the civil power, etc.) Much akin to police "snipers" who engage targets out to 300 m with 5.56 or 7.62 mm weapons.

It would be nice to give these guys a 7.62 mm weapon, but that would create logistical challenges with mixed ammo types among rifle sections.

Might this be a direction our infantry are heading with specialized C7-based weapons?

 

[Jungle]

There are pros and cons about the "sniper" 5.56mm rifle. I believe the first operational use of "sniper" C7‘s was in East-Timor. Some standard C7‘s (the ones the rifle team had used, and prefered) had been upgraded with very decent optics, a removable bipod etc... It was operated by the no 2 in the sniper det, and was used as back-up rifle and for close protection of the det. All sniper qualified pers in recce platoon tried and appreciated the rifle.

 

[Garett]

I think the rifle could find a place in the Infantry Platoon even if its only used on operational deployments. I‘m sure that there have been many times across the water that it could have been put into use. Plus I‘d love to get some trigger time on one. I think they shot it a bit at the sniper concentration in Gagetown a while ago. A Cpl. in my platoon was working at it and he got to fire some weapons. Well he claims he did anyway.

 

[King]

Sorry to cut and paste the whole article on here, but it‘s really short and The National Post doesn‘t like people linking to their site. Either that or I need to raise the bar on my computer literacy skills cause I can‘t seem to make it work...

Canadian assault rifle key part of SAS arsenal

C7 is standard issue for Canadian troops, a hit with the British

Michael Higgins
National Post, with files from The Daily Telegraph

The Special Air Service, Britain‘s elite troops, will go into Afghanistan armed with a formidable weapon designed in Canada.

The C7 assault rifle will be the weapon of choice for many of the SAS soldiers because of its accuracy and durability.

The C7, the standard rifle for Canadian troops, has proved a big hit with the elite soldiers; it outperformed Britain‘s own SA80 and the American M16 during tests by the SAS.

The SAS began testing the weapon two years ago and, impressed by its reliability and heavy firepower, bought enough to equip the entire regiment.

The weapon is manufactured by Diemaco, Kitchener, Ont., and costs upwards of $2,000 a gun.

Optional equipment includes a 40mm grenade launcher, attached under the main barrel. SAS troopers will carry about 20 of the anti-personnel and anti-tank grenades.

There is also a laser pointer and a night image intensification sight, also known as a Kite sight. A silencer can be fitted on the end of the barrel giving the gun sniper capacity.

The magazine holds 30 rounds and the rate of fire is 700 to 940 rounds per minute. According to its specifications, it has a range of 400 metres.

A special forces source said: "This weapon is worth its weight in gold. You just don‘t want something that is ‘spray and pray‘ and you want a weapon you can absolutely rely on when you pull the trigger."

The C7 is ideal as a weapon for the close-quarter battle that the SAS is likely to experience in the caves, ravines and built-up areas of Afghanistan.

A spokesman for Diemaco said: "The thing about the C7 over the M16 is its durability. The barrel life is much longer and its general longevity better. Small but significant changes, very minor changes, make it function better in poor conditions -- mud and poor climatic conditions."

The C7 was designed in the mid-1980s and was based on America‘s M16. It has since been sold to the U.K., the Netherlands and Denmark.