The C7 Assault Rifle, M16, & AR15 family (C7A1, C7A2, C7 replacment, and C7 vs M16)
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IIRC awhile back someone on these boards mentioned that the forard assist was originally designed for cocking the weapon silently.
As MG34 pointed out, a properly maintained C7 should not need the forward assist after being cocked normally. But if you ever wanted to ready the weapon without making too much noise, you'd be required to let the bolt forward under control. In that situation, using the forward assist to make sure the bolt was in place would seem reasonable.
As MG34 pointed out, a properly maintained C7 should not need the forward assist after being cocked normally. But if you ever wanted to ready the weapon without making too much noise, you'd be required to let the bolt forward under control. In that situation, using the forward assist to make sure the bolt was in place would seem reasonable.
M
MG34
Guest
Ghostwalk said:
When would you ever want to do that?? Slowly releasing the bolt will do nothing but cause a stoppage,which is never a good thing.In all my years in the Infantry or on any of my 8 tours overseas I have yet to encounter a situation that would cause me to have to chamber a round "silently". There is only one way to ready the C7/C8 series of weapons,pull the charging handle fully to the rear and release it!
If you are in a situation where the weapon should have been made Ready and it is not then you are doing many things very wrong!!!
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I'm going to play Devil's Advocate a little here. I HAVE had to do this (chamber a round silently) on an excercise once. I'm not saying its a good idea ( In fact, it was a very bad idea and I only did it because I was ordered to, so there), but for what it's worth, the FA does work for that purpose, especially if there's a bit of frozen condensation in the weapon. It was a little bit of an "a-ha! so its good for something" moment for me.
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MG34
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I can still so no circumstance where silently chambering a round would make any sense,as for frozen weapons,the usual drill in the winter time is to keep a round chambered at all times when in the field,so you don't have to worry about any frozen condensation,once the weapon is fired a few times there is no condensation or anything else frozen for that matter in the action.I don't know what your unit SOPs are but in mine and most others once you are in the field you chamber a round and the weapon is left in a ready state unless you are ordered to unload and clear it.
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OK, just arsing around during my training I "silently" cocked my rifle, meaning I slowly let the charging handle forward. I did this to see if the forward assist actually worked. It did and I only had to tap it twice to get it into place. I was taught that there is no reason you should have to use it if you cock your weapon as shown. BTW, Wes, I was also taught to give it a tap with the palm of my hand, not a crack, just a lovely little forceful rub. ;D
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The argument that " A well trained soldier with a properly maintained weapon operating adhering flawlessly to the plans ans SOPs will never need such a silly feature, therefore it is useless." tends to find exceptions at the wrong moments, and by then, extra duties and remedial training may be too late.
Also, after a bit of thinking, I CAN see a relevent application. SOPs in low risk areas like Bosnia for the last few years have been to travel with magazine fitted but not made ready untill needed. As such, there may come a time when a member would find it prudent to make ready his weapon, but wishes to do so in a discreet manner, for example, so as to not appear too aggresive or alarmed to the local populace. Yes, Unlikely, but possible.
In a related note, I've always wondered about the lack of velcro use on the magazine pouches on both the webbing and Vest. I have often theorized that perhaps someone high up noticed that velcro made an inordinate amount of noise when being opened, and concluded that it was not tactical enough. I didn't hit him with the first 30 rounds, now I must SHIT HE HEARD ME OPENING MY MAG POUCH........
Also, after a bit of thinking, I CAN see a relevent application. SOPs in low risk areas like Bosnia for the last few years have been to travel with magazine fitted but not made ready untill needed. As such, there may come a time when a member would find it prudent to make ready his weapon, but wishes to do so in a discreet manner, for example, so as to not appear too aggresive or alarmed to the local populace. Yes, Unlikely, but possible.
In a related note, I've always wondered about the lack of velcro use on the magazine pouches on both the webbing and Vest. I have often theorized that perhaps someone high up noticed that velcro made an inordinate amount of noise when being opened, and concluded that it was not tactical enough. I didn't hit him with the first 30 rounds, now I must SHIT HE HEARD ME OPENING MY MAG POUCH........
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Britney,
Sorry that is bullshit - charging the weapon if not readied is part of your ROE's and you woudl only be able to do it if you were going to escalate to deadly force - or were doing it as a show of force - it would/should not be done operationally in a quiet manner.
Reaper is 100% correct
Sorry that is bullshit - charging the weapon if not readied is part of your ROE's and you woudl only be able to do it if you were going to escalate to deadly force - or were doing it as a show of force - it would/should not be done operationally in a quiet manner.
Reaper is 100% correct
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If its bullshit, there's no need to be sorry, I'm here to learn. We are all adults here, call it like it is and I'll do the same.
And the same ROEs would say you only need to carry 5 mags too. Will you ever need more than 5 mags? Probably not. Ergo, wishing to carry more than 5 mags is obviously stupid. Hardly clear cut. Because something is never SUPPOSE to happen according to the ROE card it never will right? Before I get bogged down in semantics, here I mean of course the situation taking an unexpected turn, not the soldier deciding to invent new ROEs for himself. I'll do the pack drill and decide after the fact whether it happening was "bullshit" or not acording to the ROEs, but most likely at the time I'd rather have the feature and not need it than vice versa.
So, the crux of the issue then is whether the added element of unreliability from the addition of the forward assist (serration of the bolt, etc). outweights the advantage that it may at some point be a useful feature. Actually, in light of MG34's comments, I'm going to agree with him. If it were a personal weapon and I could be sure that the FA has never been misused/abused, then it's another story, but I can't be sure that the FA of an issued weapon hasn't been smaked around a thousand times by the previous owner, and is on the verge of failing. With the info provided by him, I am now(and only now) of the opinion that YES, the FA is a useless feature that does more harm than good. You can be sure that I shall pass on this information to my less experienced/knowledgeble collleagues just as it has been passed on to me here.
Now are we all happy?
And the same ROEs would say you only need to carry 5 mags too. Will you ever need more than 5 mags? Probably not. Ergo, wishing to carry more than 5 mags is obviously stupid. Hardly clear cut. Because something is never SUPPOSE to happen according to the ROE card it never will right? Before I get bogged down in semantics, here I mean of course the situation taking an unexpected turn, not the soldier deciding to invent new ROEs for himself. I'll do the pack drill and decide after the fact whether it happening was "bullshit" or not acording to the ROEs, but most likely at the time I'd rather have the feature and not need it than vice versa.
So, the crux of the issue then is whether the added element of unreliability from the addition of the forward assist (serration of the bolt, etc). outweights the advantage that it may at some point be a useful feature. Actually, in light of MG34's comments, I'm going to agree with him. If it were a personal weapon and I could be sure that the FA has never been misused/abused, then it's another story, but I can't be sure that the FA of an issued weapon hasn't been smaked around a thousand times by the previous owner, and is on the verge of failing. With the info provided by him, I am now(and only now) of the opinion that YES, the FA is a useless feature that does more harm than good. You can be sure that I shall pass on this information to my less experienced/knowledgeble collleagues just as it has been passed on to me here.
Now are we all happy?
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Having just finished my classroom weapons training here at St-Jean (weapons test was two days ago), I will confirm that we were told to "strike the forward assist with the palm". On numerous occaisions throughout the training, people in my platoon were told that pressing it with your thumb was incorrect. I think people were actually given "mistakes" on their test for not striking it firmly.
I haven't actually fired the weapon, and have basically no knowledge outside the many classroom sections, so I can't comment on whether its a good or bad idea. I can just say that firmly striking it is the way it is taught here.
I haven't actually fired the weapon, and have basically no knowledge outside the many classroom sections, so I can't comment on whether its a good or bad idea. I can just say that firmly striking it is the way it is taught here.
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NavyGrunt
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I was told 5 times.... ;D
AmmoTech90
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Britney,
I have never seen a set of ROEs that described how much ammunition you could carry. I have heard some horror stories from Bosnia and Cyprus where members had to turn in their ammunition when they returned to camp or came of sentry/gate guard, maybe someone can let me know if that was due to flinching about troops having access to ammo 24/7 or was it ROE (keeping in mind OPSEC, etc). On my tours all troops have kept their basic load with them. As far as I have seen ROEs can limit you to the type of ammunition that can be employed but not qty. It is unit SOPs, scales of issue, and availability that determin how much each person carries. BTW, when I mention SOPs I am including informal procedures within units that allow troops to carry more than what written down in the kit list...
I have never seen a set of ROEs that described how much ammunition you could carry. I have heard some horror stories from Bosnia and Cyprus where members had to turn in their ammunition when they returned to camp or came of sentry/gate guard, maybe someone can let me know if that was due to flinching about troops having access to ammo 24/7 or was it ROE (keeping in mind OPSEC, etc). On my tours all troops have kept their basic load with them. As far as I have seen ROEs can limit you to the type of ammunition that can be employed but not qty. It is unit SOPs, scales of issue, and availability that determin how much each person carries. BTW, when I mention SOPs I am including informal procedures within units that allow troops to carry more than what written down in the kit list...
D
D-n-A
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One of the reasons why your taught to palm the Forward Assist is so that your instructers can see you doing it, same with using your left hand to change the fire mode to S, R and A.
Least, thats what I've been told.
When I've gone on the range with my unit, I've hit the forward assist with my palm and thumb, and haven't had any problems with pushing in the forward assist with my thumb, aslong as you push it all the way down, it shoulden't make a difference if you palm or thumb it.
Least, thats what I've been told.
When I've gone on the range with my unit, I've hit the forward assist with my palm and thumb, and haven't had any problems with pushing in the forward assist with my thumb, aslong as you push it all the way down, it shoulden't make a difference if you palm or thumb it.
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The definitive answer is that you "push the forward assist". There is no mention of how hard or with which part of the hand.
ref: http://www.army.dnd.ca/ael/pubs/300-008/b-gl-385/001/PT-001/B-GL-385-001-PT-001_e.pdf
Intuitively, the thumb method makes sense to me.
Ammotech90:
You are right, the basic load of the infantryman is not a subject covered specifically by ROEs. However, I think it would fall under the percieved escalation of force( don't quote me verbatim here, I don't have a ROE card in front of me). In the same sense that the mere prescence of support weapons such as machine guns can be percieved as an escalation of force, so too would a soldier obviously festooned with a much larger load of ammunition and/or anti-tank weapons than normal, or with body armour in a theatre where body armour is not routinely worn. All open to interpretaion by the chain of course. My point is that if I were told that a feature of the C7 service rifle and its associated drills were "bullshit" solely because the ROE card says I will never need it, what would I do? What would you do?
ref: http://www.army.dnd.ca/ael/pubs/300-008/b-gl-385/001/PT-001/B-GL-385-001-PT-001_e.pdf
Intuitively, the thumb method makes sense to me.
Ammotech90:
You are right, the basic load of the infantryman is not a subject covered specifically by ROEs. However, I think it would fall under the percieved escalation of force( don't quote me verbatim here, I don't have a ROE card in front of me). In the same sense that the mere prescence of support weapons such as machine guns can be percieved as an escalation of force, so too would a soldier obviously festooned with a much larger load of ammunition and/or anti-tank weapons than normal, or with body armour in a theatre where body armour is not routinely worn. All open to interpretaion by the chain of course. My point is that if I were told that a feature of the C7 service rifle and its associated drills were "bullshit" solely because the ROE card says I will never need it, what would I do? What would you do?
AmmoTech90
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B-GL-385-001/PT-001 THE RIFLE 5.56 mm C7 AND THE CARBINE 5.56 mm C8 (available at:
http://armyapp.dnd.ca/ael/publications_ie.asp?series=380_e) says to "Push the forward assist assembly" when ever it is mentioned except once. During the Rapid Fire drills it says to "strike the forward assist assembly". Having had to investigate worries about strike marks on the primers of 5.56mm rounds during I last tour I talked to senior Wpn Tech and was informed that a simple press with the thumb is what should be used, and not always. The forward assist is meant for inclement conditions such as dirt, mud or carbon build up. BTW, don't worry about small stike marks on the bottom of your rounds if they have been chambered. Due to the AR15 families' floating firing pin it will happen but is not a safety concern.
http://armyapp.dnd.ca/ael/publications_ie.asp?series=380_e) says to "Push the forward assist assembly" when ever it is mentioned except once. During the Rapid Fire drills it says to "strike the forward assist assembly". Having had to investigate worries about strike marks on the primers of 5.56mm rounds during I last tour I talked to senior Wpn Tech and was informed that a simple press with the thumb is what should be used, and not always. The forward assist is meant for inclement conditions such as dirt, mud or carbon build up. BTW, don't worry about small stike marks on the bottom of your rounds if they have been chambered. Due to the AR15 families' floating firing pin it will happen but is not a safety concern.
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Devil's advocate again.
Source: http://www.bob-oracle.com/SWATreport.htm
I am merely quoting third sources,as I have nowhere near the ammount of experience or expertise of the other members posting.
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We have been getting the slight indentations forever - no biggie. Op Stock ammo should be rotated out occasionalyl and the fired at the range and replaced with new stock.
We have been teaching two bumps with the right heal of the palm for a while. Provided the bolt is seated it will not due anythign with the firing pin and even if it is not the bolt closing on its own momentum will have more inertia than your palm.
Guys - Reaper and 1 are reg force infanteer (RCR and PPCLI respectively) we have used these weapon in a few countries in both trg and operationally - the C7 and C8 family are outstanding performers (the C8SFW won the BRit SF weapons trials Arctic, Jungle and Desert...)
I used the C8SFW in Afghan and have 0 complaints...
We have been teaching two bumps with the right heal of the palm for a while. Provided the bolt is seated it will not due anythign with the firing pin and even if it is not the bolt closing on its own momentum will have more inertia than your palm.
Guys - Reaper and 1 are reg force infanteer (RCR and PPCLI respectively) we have used these weapon in a few countries in both trg and operationally - the C7 and C8 family are outstanding performers (the C8SFW won the BRit SF weapons trials Arctic, Jungle and Desert...)
I used the C8SFW in Afghan and have 0 complaints...
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