The C7 Assault Rifle, M16, & AR15 family (C7A1, C7A2, C7 replacment, and C7 vs M16)

[Spr.Earl]

When it come‘s to combat and instinctive shooting you don‘t need the hassle of trying to focus to a scope!!!
Iron sight‘s give you that advantage of instinctive shooting and also it give‘s you your perifial vision to some extent which scope‘s don‘t!

 

[Joel85]

They should issue extra harware with every weapon, i.e front handle, grip and butt stock. It should come with a tan and white set. This would be much better for desert, arctic and woodland environments.

 

[KevinB]

SPR EARL - the RED DOT CCO‘s (close combat optics) are much easier to use over irons.

Magnified optics are extremely important for tgt recognition etc.


A dual role scope like the Bindon Aiming Concept ACOG‘s (TA31, TA11 series and all the compact ACOG‘s)
The scope can be used as a CCO and yet is a magnified optic.
The USMC from their experiences in Iraq and A‘stan just specified the TA31F ACOG for all their M16A4‘s and options for the M4A1 carbines. Plus they are lookign at a KAC built 16" midlength carbine to replace both...

Rifle furniture - who cares - you will paint it operationally to blend in with your surroundings.

 

[Doug VT]

Kevin, as usual you‘re right on the mark. Too often people are woried about the things that don‘t really matter to performance. It‘s always the simpler things that really improve a weapons performance. The little things that always get overlooked, because they aren‘t as visible.

 

[Ray]

yes your right on the money about that but what i was getting at was this new c-7 should go to the soldiers who need it . the cf will just say no the cost to fit out all the troops with it will be to costly and it will get caned , just like the new ruck we asked for cost to much and we had to get somtime we all can use .
:soldier:

 

[KevinB]

Guys the $ stuff is BS.

It is about allocating money where we need it.

2 or 3 less LAVIII‘s for instance would equip all the reg force infantry forces with a new rifle/carbine.

1-2 more and a complement of rifle/carbine coudl be held for the reserve units.

We have big buck MNVG‘s, LAD/CLAD‘s why not the rifle?

 

[Grunt_031]

It is both about $ and allocation.

Remember that we are a small military and we are a aging one as well. Most of our equipment needs upgrading and replacement and that is for all services. While I agree the replacement/ mods that KevinB is speaking about are the ideal solutions and I personally would love. The C7A2 upgrade will make improvements that we have asked for years for a small cost.(except the Triad mount which is horrid idea and big mistake)

A 16" barrel is the ideal but the current barrel is "adequate" and we have stock to last us another decade or so. We have used in the C7 in the grizzly which is smaller than the LAV3, it was a pain in the *** but we could do it, we have used it in FIBUA etc. There is plan to implement the 16 when we begin to purchase additional stock of barrels but that is a few years away. The Light Infantry program 150 Million per BN may speed this up but I wouldn‘t hold my breath.


If you are using the reasoning that 1 or 2 LAV less, why not buy ammo. You could have the greatest rifle, optics, and acessories in the world but if troops can‘t shoot a rifle, it just looks pretty.

Bottom line I think that there are other items we can allocate money to besides reducing the barrel 4 inchs.

 

[MG34]

The canadian military through decades of mismanagement has had to adopt a policy of making due,this is indeed a sad statement on our government and the rampant mismanagement that is going in.The C7 upgrade is a chance for us to it right,I for one do not see why we should have to make due with something that falls short of the mark.I think it is now to the point where the originators of this program have dug in their heels and are refusing to hear about anything but their grand vision of how they see things should be.
The fact that out military is so small does not mean we should have poor equipment,in fact it should mean the opposite.

 

[KevinB]

Grunt,

I will mirror MG34‘s comments - I do agree we need more ammo and more training - but when you get into the ‘close combat enviroment‘ which the CLS keeps refering too, the C7 is too large. I will not go on on how outdated and ineffective the CF FIBUA/OIBUA drills are, as that is fact and they are being revisited - but if you have taken any MOUT Carbine training you will see how it is impossible to employ a 20" rifle while conducting proper drills.

USMC pers were documented in IRAQ using captured AK-47‘s for MOUT due to their shorter length and the USMC is revisiting their outlook on the M16A4 rifle.

The C79 is a dog - it should be put out to pasture - the optic is great, the mount sucks - even in its 4th gen version.

In my less than humble opinion the C7A2 is throwing good money after bad.

 

[KevinB]

http://nightoperations.com/Doc/Infantry-Rifle-Carbine1.pdf

 

[KevinB]

Accuracy is another point of contention.

16" Midlength KAC URXII w/ 1:7 Krieger SS Match barrel - which during accuracy testing at KAC was a sub-moa gun - and still is.
However it is a custom gun pretty much handbuilt by LtCol (USMC ret.) Dave Lutz KAC‘s VP for MIL Operations.
16" Midlength KAC FFRAS M/L w/ Armalite 1:9 Chrome BBL
This hovers in the 1MOA area - but not with the Mk262 as it is a 1:9 twist
16" Midlenght ARMS SIR #58 w/ Armalite 1:9 pretty much ditto for the previous.

Ideally we could get a Diemaco 1:7 SFW barrel that is re-profiled into a gov‘t profile midlength gasposition, but I (and some friends and mentors) are pretty much alone on this.

Since the factory 16" bbls are identical in accuracy out to 500m so far as their 20" factory brothers - my interpolation is that the Diemaco made 1:7 Midlength could/should be a sub-moa factory barrel (based on my shooting a countless number of other D bbl‘s in both 14.5" C8 and 20" C7).
Thus out to our 300m ‘max‘ point tgt range (book value) there woudl be no decrease in accuracy.

For point two - no decrease in effectiveness, one either buys in to the Col Fackler M.D., 5.56mm data or not - and the corresponding Gel Test protocols.
If one does (as I do) the 2500fps impact velocity is the key for the C77/SS109 projectile for it to yaw then fragment and 2700fps the preferred.
C77 has a MV of 3150fps out of the C7A1, and it drop below 2700 fps around 130m, and 2500fps @ 185m.

From the 14.5" C8 it has a MV of 2925 fps, dropping below 2500fps @ 130m and 2700fps @ 60m.

With the 16" it drops below 2700fps @ 90m and 2500fps @ 160m

This data was assembled off an Oehler Chronograph for MV‘s and G1 drag co-eff w/ .304BC for the C77rd using the MCTRAJ4 program.

 

[Ray]

wow kev you realy know your weapons way to go!!!
sad thing is they have one thing on there mind and it will be money we‘ll get what fits them to bad . **** the realy sad thing is the us civis have better then the canadian military

 

[onecat]

US civis can pretty much out any nation in terms of small arms. I think you even buy a G-36 there. And if your really bored buy full-auto M-2 for your back yard range.

In terms of kit I think we‘re on pare with a lot of Nato nations but I could be wrong. But comparing Canada to the US is always going to end in saddness when it come to small arms kit.

 

[MG34]

Actually the G36 semi auto varient is non restricted here.
With an Army our size there is no excuse for not having the proper kit espescially if one looks at all of the money wasting projects that are on the go for example: The Official Language Express,Safety Digest,Maple Leaf,trials and evaluations on kit that is either already issued (Flack jackets for example) or already proven itself (The McMillian TAC-50), the list goes on and on.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I don‘t consider the Maple Leaf to be a waste of money. In fact if anything, I think it should be expanded and dropped off where the public can see what the military is doing. You need a newspaper like this to keep the public and other members of your military informed on whats going on throughout the Forces. If there is nothing like this all it does is loosen the tie that bind us and allow contempt for each other to breed.

 

[mattoigta]

that slideshow should explain more in depth the new additions

-what are the batteries in the pistol grip for?
-whats the point of that addition to the cocking handle?
-what do they mean by telescoping butt?

 

[MG34]

The batteries are for Night Vision optics
The addition to the cocking handle has several reasons it allows a better grip,it allows you to cock the rifle with gloves of mitts on and makes it easier to cock the weapon with the optics on it.
The telescoping butt means that the butt sides in to 4 positions to allow you to adjust it for body armor,winter kit and to fully collapse it.

 

[MG34]

I disagree totally that rag is a total waste of cash.A 2 page piece on each service while the rest is committed to useless crap about politically correct drivel that is dedicated to showing how "diverse we are",almost as bad as thos pathetic decals on the CF buses.

 

[mattoigta]

right on thanks

i kinda figured that about the cocking handle, and the butt - just got thrown off by the term "telescoping"

are they plannying on changing the colour schemes for the C9‘s and C6s then?

 

[Infanteer]

I am so glad that the Maple Leaf is NOT generally available to the public, lest they think the military is a bunch of retarded pussies.
Every time I pick up a copy of the Maple Leaf I am tempted to sign my walking papers....