The Curse of Cultural Awareness

[GAP]

BTW, NEVER did I say or imply that I or the general public found it outrageous that he swore an oath upon a Bible or a Koran(as noted by the news at the last swearing ceremony for the new congress and senate). Isn't that the tradition at every swearing-in ceremony?

 

[tomahawk6]

Yes it is. Some Presidents have used their own family Bible for the swearing in ceremony. Both the House and Senate have Chaplains.

 

[CougarKing]

Now that this swearing-in matter at inaugruations is settled, let's get back to T6's topic.

 

[George Wallace]

Multiculturalism in Canada is a dismal failure.  It has not at all done as Trudeau had envisioned, and he even later admitted to that fact.  What it has done is "Ghettoize" Canada into little enclaves where people do not assimilate into Canadian society.  They don't see the requirement to learn English or French.  They don't see the requirement to learn about Canada or its' culture.  It is in fact destroying Canada's culture.  It has already created conflict between cultures in Canada.  For example look at the second largest language group in the country, centered in Vancouver.  Many Chinese there know little about Canada.  The Triads rule many of the streets and businesses there.  Next we can look at the large Indo-Pakistani community and its' problems.  We have Sihks and their cultural differences.   Many Southwest Asians from the Stans have brought their radical forms of Islam into Canada.  We have seen abuses of Sharia Law, Vaginal Mutilation, and Honour Killings in our major cities.  This is no way to celebrate any success in the idea of multiculturalism in this country.   It has failed.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

But I see nothing wrong with highlighting these differences from time to time.

But what is the point?  When has anyone ever responded well to the "some animals are more equal than others" supposition?

 

[CougarKing]

Multiculturalism in Canada is a dismal failure.  It has not at all done as Trudeau had envisioned, and he even later admitted to that fact.  What it has done is "Ghettoize" Canada into little enclaves where people do not assimilate into Canadian society.  They don't see the requirement to learn English or French.  They don't see the requirement to learn about Canada or its' culture.  It is in fact destroying Canada's culture.  It has already created conflict between cultures in Canada.  For example look at the second largest language group in the country, centered in Vancouver.  Many Chinese there know little about Canada.  The Triads rule many of the streets and businesses there.  Next we can look at the large Indo-Pakistani community and its' problems.  We have Sheiks and their cultural differences.   Many Southwest Asians from the Stans have brought their radical forms of Islam into Canada.  We have seen abuses of Sharia Law, Vaginal Mutilation, and Honour Killings in our major cities.  This is no way to celebrate any success in the idea of multiculturalism in this country.   It has failed.

You have a point there about the refusal to assimilate. These cultural enclaves are not just a problem one sees in Canada, but obviously in the US (Eastern Los Angeles, Monterrey Park- one of two Chinatowns and a Koreatown downtown as well as how Detroit has a lot of Middle-Easterners) and Britain (The Indo-Pakistanis there as well) as well as many other First-World Nations. However, you have to understand that immigrants to new nations would rather stick with others who share what is familiar to them in order to make ends meet and make their way in the most practical way possible. Their Canadian/US-born children are often the ones who assimilate better since they grow up bilingual and are bridge between the mainstream society and their parent's culture.

Still, if you look at the example of New York in the late 19th century, and early 20th centuries, you had similar enclaves, but those of European descent, like the Eastern Europeans/Slavics/Poles as well as the Italians (many dubbed as "dago" as some Mexicans are now) and even Jewish enclaves and so forth as well as the Irish in Boston- the list goes on- the point is they did assimilate eventually (well the Mafias- Russian and Italian- may be an exception to that).

But what is the point?  When has anyone ever responded well to the "some animals are more equal than others" supposition?

Well my point in "highlighting these differences" was that I meant the "parades or festivals" which you said one should be indifferent too as long as it's not your problelm- but there's no harm in just being aware of that other group's culture.

However a RELUCTANCE to assimilate DOES NOT MEAN the failure of multiculturalism. It's only been 3, 4 decades since Trudeau espoused that concept and you are ready to say it's a failure?!

 

[George Wallace]

Well my point in "highlighting these differences" was that I meant the "parades or festivals" which you said one should be indifferent too as long as it's not your problelm- but there's no harm in just being aware of that other group's culture.

However a RELUCTANCE to assimilate DOES NOT MEAN the failure of multiculturalism. It's only been 3, 4 decades since Trudeau espoused that concept and you are ready to say it's a failure?!

Yes!  It is a failure.  We are pumping 'welfare' money (not really welfare money, but might as well be) into all these multicultural organizations and events to promote something that we had for years prior to anyone thought of Multiculturalism.  Dauphin, Manitoba, had the largest Ukrainian Festival in North America years before Trudeau entered Politics.  Quebec has celebrated Carnival since the first Frenchman landed in Quebec.  Every city had a Chinatown and Little Italy.  These are not new.  Why do we have to fund them now, and emphasise their differences.  It has totally destroyed all English cultures.......are there any English cultural events?  We have emphasised the differences, but failed to emphasise the similarities.  Canada's social structure is disintergrating.  Common bonds are getting weaker.  Hyphenated Canadians are a mistake.  You should be either Canadian, or not.  Not half and half.  That is a cream.

 

[CougarKing]

Well, I am not about to give Multiculturalism its epitaph and write it off just yet. Did you read my whole post- especially the part about the practicality part and the bilingual children?

Oh BTW, why are all of you so afraid/possibly resentful of the concept of hyphenated Canadians? Being one myself, I would have thought that multiculturalism would have brought us together in spite of the differences, regardless of whether you're of English descent, Chinese, French or even First-Nations.

You complain of pumping welfare money into these multi-cultural organizations and their cultural events- but do you see the Chinese or Arabs complaining about Christmas or Veteran's Day or Canadian Thanksgiving? Those are the English cultural events you must be referring to. The mainstream English culture still pervades every part of our society and dominates, but the immigrants accept it and don't impose their own holidays on the rest of you like Chinese New Year in late January or early Februrary or Ramadan for the Muslims around November.

You of course must have noticed that being a hyphenated-Canadian does not decrease one's loyalty to one's adoptive country. You have hypenated-Canadians serving in the CF- even I want to serve in the CF once I get citizenship, being just a landed immigrant for now.

Also, I'd like to point out that many of these permanent, landed immigrants chose this country as your new home and as long as they respect your laws and traditions, I don't think it's anyone's business what they do as long as they are not betraying the country by doing something such as selling off national, military secrets. The American example of that Chinese physicist at Los Alamos may be a good example of a traitor, since I hear that guy was also a greencard holder there.

The United States has dealt with its own problem of "hyphenated Americans" as well, and I think it unites more often that it divides, at least in more populated, cosmopolitian cities and so-called "blue states" like California and New York.

 

[muskrat89]

BTW, NEVER did I say or imply that I or the general public found it outrageous that he swore an oath upon a Bible. Isn't that the tradition at every swearing-in ceremony up from the time of George Washington?

That was indeed my mistake. From your previous statement

and the US President's need to swear an oath on a Bible during his inaguruation

I thought you meant the current President. Again, my error.

Now that this swearing-in matter at inaugruations is settled, let's get back to T6's topic

If you don't want topics going on tangents, then don't make comments like this:

For someone who like you who has worked for the govt./military you should be well aware that the seperation of church of state should very well apply not only in our case but in your nation's case as well.

It is my opinion that you, living now in Canada - making statements about how affairs should be handled in the US - is in itself arrogant and intolerant of another society's beliefs. You know better than the people who live here? Than the country's founding fathers?

 

[CougarKing]

It is my opinion that you, living now in Canada - making statements about how affairs should be handled in the US - is in itself arrogant and intolerant of another society's beliefs. You know better than the people who live here? Than the country's founding fathers?

Muskrat and all,

I apologize if I came across as arrogant by making that statement to T6 about the "Seperation of Church and State", but I thought I was merely REMINDING him of that core pillar of American society since America has a very secular government IN PRACTICE even if it doesn't say anywhere in the US Constitution about the "Seperation of Church and State".

This concept was drummed into my head in freshman year at the US College before I decided to focus on Political Philosophy and Foreign Policy studies as my focus for my Poli Sci major back then. And besides the United States doesn't have any priests or bishops or clerics in a council overshadowing political officials as is the case with the Sharia Council/Supreme Council of Ayatollahs in Iran like Ayatollah Khamenei (Khomeini's successor) who have more power than that jerk President Ahmedijinad.

 

[chanman]

Well, I am not about to give Multiculturalism its epitaph and write it off just yet. Did you read my whole post- especially the part about the practicality part and the bilingual children?

Oh BTW, why are all of you so afraid/possibly resentful of the concept of hyphenated Canadians? Being one myself, I would have thought that multiculturalism would have brought us together in spite of the differences, regardless of whether you're of English descent, Chinese, French or even First-Nations.

Because well... cultures change; I hope Canadian culture takes the best practices of whatever various immigrant groups arive, but some traditions deserve to die quiet unlamented deaths.  Blood feuds Honour Codes, foot binding, the caste system...  I can think of plenty of cultural artifacts that would best serve as examples of madness in history books.

 

[CougarKing]

But that doesn't mean ALL of those traditions should die, chanman? Dui bu Dui? (Am I right?)

 

[Nemo888]

The curse of “cultural awareness” is knowing that your hierarchy of values and beliefs is not absolute. There is a razors path between moral absolutism and moral relativism that is difficult to follow. Few make even a token effort. It is the simple truth that people see things differently. When these views become too extreme they become a dogma, moral absolutism. A set of beliefs that are so sacred as to no longer be assailable by new ideas. Anyone who assails these ideas has “half a brain” or is brainwashed. Moral relativism is no better. The idea everything is equal leads to a degradation of everything. I call it the philosophy of universal mediocrity.

People become so sure that their values are universally applicable they just stop thinking. How wonderful to be so full of yourself that you are always right and never have to change your mind.


P.S. The separation of church and state is necessary because religions are notorious for being infallible. Politics is mans creation, with humanities limitations to put it mildly.

 

[tomahawk6]

There was no seperation of church and state for Britain.I think our founding fathers would feel that a nation that fails to embrace God is doomed to fail. Each culture has its own idea what god is,I merely reflect on the Christian view of God.Where you have a strong sense of religion the State has a strong moral compass. The ongoing attack on christianity in the US is an attempt to erode the base of US society and replace it with atheism or agnosticism. What is disturbing to me is that in a predominately christian country groups like the ACLU will attack nativity scenes, ten commandment statues, christmas trees but say nothing about religious symbols of any other religion. Of course the ACLU has its roots in the communist movement and has such carries on the communist struggle against the fabric of US society.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>There is NOTHING WRONG with the multiculturalism first espoused in the 1960s

It depends on what your view is of "multiculturalism".  If it means you get to inflict your own cultural practices on yourself, then fill your boots.  If it means I have to "celebrate" you or contribute treasure to your cultural self-worship, then p!ss off.  "Tolerant" means to put up with sh!t of which you disapprove.  Enforced "celebration" is ultimately corrosive.  And, frankly, if a person openly acknowledges that his loyalties are to family and tribe before anything else, I don't see any reason why it would be rational for me, as member of neither family or tribe, to trust or expect to be trusted - ever - until he changes his value system to match mine, or I become a member of his family or tribe.

>within diversity comes tolerance and thus peace because each other's religious views are respected.

Diversity doesn't foster tolerance.  It just ensures that the density of people who are not members of each others' respective in-groups is increased in any given sample of population.  If people are already predisposed to tolerance - at the extreme, willing to put up with sh!t of which they disapprove or distrust - then the group can sort of get along.  If there are any cultural prejudices - any at all - which lead to one in-group making demands of others or not reciprocating concessions at the social interfaces, then ultimately diversity should be expected to be a pressure cooker for xenophobia.

Multiculturalism of the mutual-respect-each-going-our-own-way variety is just individual liberty (classical liberalism) writ large.  Canadian post-Trudeauvian cultural promotion and favouritism masquerading as multiculturalism is a blot on an otherwise just principle.

The problem with permitting people to practice being diluted forms of Canadian is that they might not adopt all of the core moral and civil principles which made Canada the way it is.  If the country doesn't impose its core values, groups will retain or develop their own.  Changing the degree of observance of the underlying principles will result in a different Canada, and there's no reason it has to be better than the current one.

 

[CougarKing]

T6,

Sir, please let's not turn into this into a debate about liberals vs. conservatives, or about ACLU's "political correctness tendencies" or even mention communism or socialism. Let's just pleaes focus on Multi-culturalism or culturalism for now.

 

[Nemo888]

"a strong moral compass"

That is what it is meant to be. Equality, Rule of Law, etc these are arguably Christisn concepts adopted by the State to benefit society. I believe that the egalitarian state came about in the West because of Christianity. I am not knockin' old school religion, it did a damn better job than the new boss. Global Capital stripped of all moral constraints.


P.S. To the pro multiculturalism camp:
Will you tolerate the intolerance(moral absolutism) that many new immigrants from the middle east bring to Canada? I will not.  Killing your daughter for sleeping with someone you don't like for instance. Some values are more equal than others, lol  >

 

[medaid]

With regards to customs, traditions and mindset...I cant say much for the other cultures but I will say this for my own. Just to clarify, I consider myself Canadian first, and what ever ethnicity second. I do not agree with many of the ideals and beliefs of members of our society of the Asian ethnicity. I too believe that on parts multiculturalism have failed miserably. This is my observations from my everyday life which has pointed to such failures. The lack of ability for a majority of Asians to speak English/french. This is disturbing to me. GREATLY disturbing and really quite annoying. There are many times that I've encountered Asians who are Canadians or Landed Immigrants who do not speak a WORD of English, or extremely BROKEN English after being here for more then 10 years. The elderly are of course NOT included in this population to which I am referring to.

There are also too many individuals who bring their way of doing things over here and CON yes CON money out of our government. Either through tax evasion, or applying for child support money though loop holes in the system: ie. no employment, or low income. Some of you may say many cultures do this, yes...however, being a member of the Asians community, this borderline infuriates me. Why should MY tax dollars fund their illegitimate ways of life?! Many of you are in the same situation, and I'm sure it infuriates you too.

I believe that the people who decides to immigrate here or any other foreign nation should think twice before they do so. Immigration should not be a way of escaping crime, heavy taxation, poor environment, just to go to other people's countries and ruin it for them... If you made the choice of immigrating to Canada, YOU WILL LEARN THE LANGUAGE. YOU WILL ADAPT TO THE WAY OF LIFE HERE. You should NOT ruin the way of life for everyone else by bringing your bad habits over here....ie. poor driving skills 

Also...to CougarKing's comment about pushing Thanksgiving and Veteran's Day and such predominantly 'ENGLISH' or WESTERN cultures on to these other cultures...well I say TOUGH LUCK. No one asked you to immigrate here. YOU made that choice, and you can also make a choice to LEAVE when ever you want. Irregardless of WHAT your cultural beliefs are, you have to take it into account that CANADIAN culture comes FIRST because YOU now live in CANADA and not any OTHER COUNTRY.

Just my 0.02... I apologise in advance if I've offended anyone...

 

[Nemo888]

Don't get me going on how some immigrants seem to think Canada is a hotel. My girlfriend is not from Canada and one of her sisters and I always fight about this.

 

[medaid]

and me and many members of my culture  ;D