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The Great Gun Control Debate

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WR said:
You don't understand the term tool;

Tool   
noun
1.an implement, especially one held in the hand, as a hammer, saw, or file, for performing or facilitating mechanical operations.
2.any instrument of manual operation.
3.the cutting or machining part of a lathe, planer, drill, or similar machine.
4.the machine itself; a machine tool.
5.anything used as a means of accomplishing a task or purpose: Education is a tool for success.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tool

The Use of Force continuum give operational guidance for CCC 25

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/gazette/vol70n4/force-eng.htm

An explanation of the Incident Management/Intervention  Model
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ccaps-spcca/cew-ai/imim-migi-eng.htm#lethal

CCC 25

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-7.html#h-6

In your army world a tool is a chainsaw etc, in the law enforcement world it can also be a firearm, baton, OC etc. Just because it is not a term you are used to does not confer that there is a cavalier or unsafe attitude towards firearms. An explanation given to me awhile back was that bad guys use weapons and the good guys use tools.

Thats all well and good and I do understand what you meant by tool, but none of what you wrote overides or nullifies the defintions of a firearm or weapon under Part III of the Criminal Code http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-39.html#h-37 specifically sections  regarding things like safe storage and handling like sections 86  http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-40.html#h-39 ,  105 and 107of the CCC http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-48.html#h-44 and storage/transport regs of the Firearms Act http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/page-1.html.  You can call them what ever you want if it helps you sleep better at night, at the end of the day they are still firearms/weapons, and should always be treated as such.  IMHO from what I have personally seen, is when people in the military haven't treated them in this manner, thats when shyte goes missing and everyone goes into a tailspin trying to track stuff down, luckly in these instance its a paperwork thing or someone went home with a bolt in their pocket (still bad, not as bad as loosing the whole damn gun/rifle). 
 
Roger that, I remember the crap you went through in the early 80s if you were a C2 gunner, you see the safety sear that allowed auto fire fit most other FNs (and we all had our own personal non-issued FNs in those days).  Anyway, at least 4 times in my platoon in 1.5 years C2 sears were stolen during garrison weapons cleaning leaving the poor C2 gunner holding the bag and being grilled by the SI.  Serious "buddy f$%king" was going on.  It may have been a tool to you but the city cops and the MPs were treating it like a prohibited weapon theft.  To the thief, it was about 100 bucks from a crooked gun dealer which was about 1/6 of our pay back then.

No sir, no such thing as a "tool" if you wear a uniform, it is still a weapon.
 
ballz said:
Why are we off on this sidetrack about whether a firearm is a tool or a weapon? It is irrelevant.

Yup agreed its just misdirection and obfuscation.  I can call my service rifle a boom stick, leave it in my locked truck parked inside lets say Denison Armoury (like actually inside the building), and go take a piss, if someone see its in there before I get back, when I get back I am going to have some explaining to do to, to the MPs waiting for me who probably aren't going to care what I have to say.
 
My question as to why a civilian gun owner should be treated differently than LEOs or military still hasn't been answered.

Everyone is getting off course an too far into the weeds here. Let's just stick to the basics first.

Let's keep our eyes on the ball here people.
 
recceguy said:
My question as to why a civilian gun owner should be treated differently than LEOs or military still hasn't been answered.

I don't think you(we) are ever going to hear a legitimate answer to that question, given the number of instances that have occurred over the years, it doesn't take a genius to see the selective bias and ass covering going on.  It will take some serious brass balls on the part of those at the top to end this practice.  Good example would be if the Chief in the B.C. incident took it upon himself to I don't know what the correct term would be, but basically charge himself, or allow another agency to charge him.  Similar the to the Menard incident with the ND. 
 
recceguy said:
My question as to why a civilian gun owner should be treated differently than LEOs or military still hasn't been answered.

The obvious answer that nobody in a position of authority wants to admit is that the laws as they stand are unreasonable, and if enforced equally would result in far too many police and military people banned from handling weapons. Also, lets not kid ourselves firearms are weapons. They have many uses, but in the end the point of them is to kill or wound people/animals.
 
Re: the Story about the Child's Pictures, guns, fire

When it comes to teachers, social workers, there is law binding them to a higher "duty to report" and there can be legal consequences for failure to report. 

http://www.children.gov.on.ca/htdocs/English/topics/childrensaid/reportingabuse/abuseandneglect/abuseandneglect.aspx

Do professionals and officials have any special responsibilities to report?
Professionals and officials have the same duty as the rest of the public to report their suspicion that a child is or may be in need of protection. However, the Act recognizes that people working closely with children have a special awareness of the signs of child abuse and neglect, and a particular responsibility to report their suspicions. Any professional or official who fails to report a suspicion is liable on conviction to a fine of up to $1,000, if they obtained the information in the course of their professional or official duties. [CFSA s.72 (4), (6.2)]

In the case of casualties/death-- there will be an investigation, involving all professionals in contact with that child/family.

Jumping to conclusions re: art work. Teachers learn about children of the less-verbal ages, it's understood that children communicate through pictures, art-- so there may be hypervigilance due to that 'understanding'.  A teacher knows their limits of 'expertise', so it's defered to Child Protection agency, and if it involves suspicions about guns being a threat, then police are automatically called in to investigate.  Child Protection workers are neither particularly trained to interview a child re: art-- trauma therapists are (but they don't exist in schools, nor Child Protection agencies)-- that's to do with Professional Code of Ethics, re: limitations of knowledge and expertise.  Anyway, this is a process issue.


Hysteria about guns, I've been very guilty of, because of personal tragedy experience and I fought some of that out here-- it actually lead to a liberating experience.  I am glad to hear of the story of an owner taking self-responsibility to store guns away at his fathers, while going through a tough bout and it was good protocal for the police to bring him to hospital for assessment. 

Having said this, I am also very concerned about the threats to Civil Liberties, that infringment can in fact do much harm, be traumatizing, create a "police state" society, over-controlled, and unprofessional conduct by those in positions of power and authority. 

I've been on the side of under-protected as a child and over-scruitinized as an adult by authoritarian powers.  A couple of experiences in which I've had a good Civil Liberties infringement case.  One situation happened stateside, and so I have no power on that one (but an interrogation, awoken by demand to get out of the tent, flashlights in the eyes, at night, at a campground-- falsely accused of something and no evidence of a crime, and that happened pre-9/11-- it was terrifying and traumatizing).  Nothing made sense why we were 'targetted'.  A break into cars accusation, the only thing that comes to mind was trying to 'break into the bear-locker' to dispose of our garbage (being civily responsible to not leave food stuff to attract bears, etc.).  Were we 'profiled' for driving a 'beater'?  No advocacy for that case, since I was in another country.  What kind of 'profiling' will they do when Bill C-30 passes. . .?

Curious Civil Liberties Case:

The other case, my brother was violently assaulted, excessive use of force, no crime was committed.  He was beaten, concussion, there were witnesses.  Harrassed for standing at a bus stop after a night of drinking (responsible, because he could have driven).  Looks shabby, white salt stains on his clothes from working hard labour.  "Safe Streets Act", "panhandling is against the law"-- he wasn't panhandling!  Cop was aggressive, brother was stunned, slurring-- Officer took that as 'attitude'.  Power-tripping, told my brother to get lost ? ! ?  Poor judgement on their side, unreasonable.  (They were in an unmarked van, which was blasting dance music, slow night. . .?  Screeched on the brakes to where my bro was).  As my brother walked away, and as the cop got into his van, brother got mad about the harassment and chucked his empty plastic coke bottle in the direction of the van (since cop told him to take his diet coke and his walkman and get lost).  Cop got out of the van, started towards my brother, witnessed warned him "look out, he's coming after you", he looked back, and ran-- got chased down an alleyway-- cop smashed his head up against a wall.  CPIC'd him-- oh geez, no criminal record (that's right not a street person, can't use that one).

I saw my brother after the fact, monitored the concussion, he didn't want to go to the hospital-- he was post-assault, adrenalized.  He developed symptoms though, that we had to go to the hospital.  Turns out the respiration, and heart was probably a post-assault panic attack.  Concussion was going away.

I was angry about what happened, and I felt the incident should be reported.  Brother didn't want to report (should have listened to him).  To me, it seemed that cop lost complete self-control and so I was concerned, signs of ill-health, colleagues should know about that, follow-up with stress-assessment, do something, monitor him (and in my mind, yeah, he's got a gun, in  position of power and authority)-- anyway, felt it was a civic responsibility to report.  I reported "informally", got attitude right away.

This part of the story is going to sound completely unbelievable, but about a week later, the [Insert Large Media Corporate name here] Newspaper ran a story, "The Gangs of [insert City here, not New York]" with a picture of a group of people standing in a parking garage.  I looked at it, the figures had slightly shaded features, but my brother's stance is unique and other unique characteristics.  And this figure is holding a beer glass-- like hmm, that seems out of place-- why that, and being in a parking garage.  Spooky, irksome, odd. . .

And some time after that, I happened to be viewing a criminology lecture from local University (ITV course), by an old prof, whom I respected his work (Prof. Don Andrews-- empirically-based studies, known for his work:"The Psychology of Criminal Conduct").  So local Police were interviewed and touting their new "Project Sweep" initiative, strategies they use along with the newer police powers sanctioned under the "Safe Streets Act" which had been adoped in my City by that time.  Some of their crime fighting strategies: deterrance.  If they suspect a youth/person involved in criminal activities, they may employ strategies to give them warning, get them to back off. . . it talked about partnerships with local businesses, media and establishments (where did the pic come of a person holding a beer glass, standing in a parking garage [which is far enough displaced from any bar-- I recognized the location). . .

What this shows me, is the potential of abuse of newer police powers, the possibility of collusion in covering up for the crimes of fellow-officers.  And who do they typically believe?  Some anonymous stranger, or the colleage they work with?  Biases, that I make an informal report, I must be criminally associated, trying to start trouble-- when honestly, it was out of civic duty, to contain harm, protect others (that's what I do with my anger, trauma/ptsd/hypervigiliance-- safety self/others).  A background check, the phone number I used to make an informal report-- there's no separation of oversight.  Maybe uninformed about that?  Realized we were 'no-bodies', poor, no family of status, etc. (we could all become that any day, outside economic forces, etc.)

I have physical evidence (the newspaper page).  But, beatings and an indirect witnesses (witnessing the injuries, de facto) of course do have traumatic impacts.  If this has happened to my brother, because the assumption he was 'homeless', how often does this happen.  The response of the witnesses at the time, like they see it all the time down there. . .?  And inflicting injuries to the head-- imagine how many beatings homeless people have taken over the years, how many might have Traumatic Brain Injuries, de-regulating behaviours (e.g. frontal lobe injuries). . .

I know my brother very well, he has total self control re: violence towards others.  He's 100% honest in character, has an unsually high level of integrity and honesty (though it was a hard time in his life at that time, thus drinking spell at that time in his life).  But we've lived through crisis for so many years, containment of violence is well-practiced, even with getting hit, etc.

Thankfully, I've had some more positive experiences of police since that time-- that helps heal the traumatic impacts (like the ethusiasm, when my building was shut-down as a result of a double-homicide in my lobby-- very cheerful at that time ;-), exciting I guess, going door-to-door).  They were also very reasonable re: another experience, re: theft at my brother's work site, wasn't a hostile interrogation (but I had to down some Ativan before going so I wouldn't fall apart, but went in to support my brother).  But the whole idea of "if you have nothing to hide, don't worry about it", is absurd.  At least a criminal would expect police to come, but if you're innocent, have done nothing wrong, it is shocking.  When it's apparent that police powers have been abused, it is frightening, it's just as bad as worrying about other "gangs" in your "hood"-- try to keep as much distance from both ;-) 

What do we become in the "free world" as people, eventually hardened to being "terrorized" by your own country's forces, or becoming crippled and complacent because of it.  How is that healthy for a free and democratic country. . . on it's population?  That you can't feel safe walking the streets because of both gangs, other predators, and police?  And we expect people to function well under those conditions, sets of systemic traumas.

Now we've got "thought police" potentially re: Bill C-30.  And crackdown on democratic debate, and information-sharing re: Bill C-11, because of copyright-- both threatening to Charter Rights, democratic principles of informed debate, alternative news sites-- message controlling.  This is a "nanny state" which I am highly opposed to.  A mean, wicked nanny/Big Brother.  Can't talk at all, liablility-- crushing of individual freedom on so many fronts.  It will harm us culturally.  Some people like to think Canadians 'have no culture', yes we do, especially when it comes down to our individual freedoms and rights.

There are other situations I tried to get help-- there's some systemic problems.  There really is not a lot of help for victims of violent crime.  No trauma-help, the system drugs, leads to under-reporting (maybe need safe support, to be able to report and long-term enough to get through court/trial-- it's not there-- no witness protection either. . .have to go to the "other side' to get protection. . .hard to do when one is law-abiding by identity, but necessities for literal survival, careful advocacy so no-one gets hurt. . .), of the most dangerous and heinous of crimes.  If I talked about what happened re: the "Project Sweep" abuse, they'd throw me on anti-psychotics, and there would be no other actions to correct the problem (and that's also abusive, "secondary traumatization')-- the powers that be know this.  When there is such a low level of accountabilty, as we also see with politicians who are allowed to lie to us and get away with it with no repercussions.  It's Kaftka-esque, system has erroded, by neglect, by politicians packing things into ideologies to garner 'consent', and situations where the 'tests of consent' don't measure real consent, as can happen in Majority Governments and the abandoment of important foundations to a free and democratic society.  A re-born of MacCarthy-ism and far worse because of technology, permanent records (not being confined to actual police records) of innnocent people. . . potentials for abuse.  Abuse, "build it and they will come. . .", and "First they came. . ."

And then they will wonder why I internet-surf, seek truth, perspectives, as hobby, not fully trusting. . .maybe choosing to withdraw at some times. . . ::)  Or that I over-spill things, and bother others with long posts. . .oppressed.  Don't look.  It's just a perspective, hoping it never comes to a "theatre near you" or to so many others, regularly, systemically.  Bill C-11 will make it harder to share from 'substantiated sources', and there's already laws to crack down on'liability' re: harm to Corporations (even Government officials/Departments by relationship, public record] reputation, profit-damage, etc.  I think that's something they may also want tighter control over. . . it seems apparent to me, reading the discouses, 'conflict of interests', etc.

Maybe off-topic, but maybe not, because there are also sub-systems which operate outside of gun registry legislation/records and related to Bills C-10, C-30, C-11 and partner agreements with other enforcement agencies.  Not occuring in a vacuum.  A point about powers without oversight, independent watchdog, laws and rules of enforcement re: misuse of power, and without citizen recourse, lacking in needed supports.  Poverty, the expense of lawyers is unreachable for many working-poor (who can't even afford to take a day off work), let alone for middle-class, plus the stress, time factors. . . + for others encumbered by illness/disability/lack of status, etc.  Even "pro-bono" often have to be able to come up with $1000. to retain services. . . this gives others who are secure in the lack of accountabily, oversight, poor work culture (not upholding 'lead by example"] to continue to pick on society's weakest. . .  "Survival of the Fittest", okay, how is that really for the teflon-class?  If we're not willing to pay for effective oversight, then a lot of this needs to be scrapped, IMO.
 
recceguy said:
My question as to why a civilian gun owner should be treated differently than LEOs or military still hasn't been answered.

My question was rhetorical ;)
 
I assumed as much, but sometimes stating the obvious helps the somewhat oblivious.
 
kstart said:
Re: the Story about the Child's Pictures, guns, fire

When it comes to teachers, social workers, there is law binding them to a higher "duty to report" and there can be legal consequences for failure to report. 

http://www.children.gov.on.ca/htdocs/English/topics/childrensaid/reportingabuse/abuseandneglect/abuseandneglect.aspx

In the case of casualties/death-- there will be an investigation, involving all professionals in contact with that child/family.

Jumping to conclusions re: art work. Teachers learn about children of the less-verbal ages, it's understood that children communicate through pictures, art-- so there may be hypervigilance due to that 'understanding'.  A teacher knows their limits of 'expertise', so it's defered to Child Protection agency, and if it involves suspicions about guns being a threat, then police are automatically called in to investigate.  Child Protection workers are neither particularly trained to interview a child re: art-- trauma therapists are (but they don't exist in schools, nor Child Protection agencies)-- that's to do with Professional Code of Ethics, re: limitations of knowledge and expertise.  Anyway, this is a process issue.

This in particular caught my eye.  Yes certain professionals that have contact with children have a duty to report suspected child endagerment/abuse, but really this isn't hyper vigilance this is a very big over reaction.  How one draws a connect to kid drawing picture of "daddy shooting BAD GUYS AND MONSTERS" to crap this kid is in a bad home there is a gun lose, is huge leap that defies logic and common sense.  Perhaps if the drawing was "Daddy pointing a gun at the family, or her playing with daddy's gun"  you could justify the concern.  How many kids who are the daughters/sons/nieces/nephews/cousins etc. of serving members have made crayon drawings of that serving member using guns/whatever and taking out the bad guy or something similiar (my own younger cousin made one for me) and no one freaked out?  Probably way more than anyone is going to bother to count.  And why is this cause, most people have enough sense to ask questions and not jump to ridiculous conclusions.
 
Hatchet Man said:
This in particular caught my eye.  Yes certain professionals that have contact with children have a duty to report suspected child endagerment/abuse, but really this isn't hyper vigilance this is a very big over reaction.  How one draws a connect to kid drawing picture of "daddy shooting BAD GUYS AND MONSTERS" to crap this kid is in a bad home there is a gun lose, is huge leap that defies logic and common sense.  Perhaps if the drawing was "Daddy pointing a gun at the family, or her playing with daddy's gun"  you could justify the concern.  How many kids who are the daughters/sons/nieces/nephews/cousins etc. of serving members have made crayon drawings of that serving member using guns/whatever and taking out the bad guy or something similiar (my own younger cousin made one for me) and no one freaked out?  Probably way more than anyone is going to bother to count.  And why is this cause, most people have enough sense to ask questions and not jump to ridiculous conclusions.

It's not really "cause", it's "suspicion"-- duty to report "suspicion" (that's written into the law, so it is vague, subjective) and yes, that is problematic-- a core issue re: a lot of legislation on the table, "suspicion breeds confidence" (--"not", likewise what Bill C-30 can unleash).  We don't have all the information about what happened, but looking at process, waht did the child say to the teacher, how grounded was the teacher in interviewing (hysteric reactions/bias)-- teacher may have informed Child Protection, and how did they handle it (could be a training issue there, re-interviewing and observation skills, judgement)?  Gun, alone, is not a threat-- is there intention?  Something may have gone wrong there.  What were Child Protection protocols for that?  How experienced was the intake worker, and protocol, and advice of supervisor?  Risk assessment usually means intent to do harm, means to do harm-- can't get that information from the child, so how that was handled by police.  I don't think Child Protection would go to a house if there is suspicion that there could be a gun there, so police are called as a policy?  Something procedural is going on there.  Judgement issues.  If police CPIC'd gun owner and his file was flagged for something. . .breech of conditions, etc.

It's a broad concept "suspicion", some serious harm happens to children, where there are no witnesses, so judgement goes by observations of behaviours in child, and interpretations from interviewing and observation (teachers are not particularly skilled at that, nor are some Child Protection workers vs. a child  therapist with experience and training assessing trauma, etc.).  Duty to report, special onus on professionals, but also to citizens as well-- so potentially that's another factor to broad interpretations of that law. . .?
 
I don't think Child Protection would go to a house if there is suspicion that there could be a gun there,

They sure do. They even do when they know firearms are present.  You make it sound like there is a threat of violence simply because there is a firearm in a house.
 
kstart said:
It's not really "cause", it's "suspicion"-- duty to report "suspicion" (that's written into the law, so it is vague, subjective) and yes, that is problematic-- a core issue re: a lot of legislation on the table, "suspicion breeds confidence" (--"not", likewise what Bill C-30 can unleash).  We don't have all the information about what happened, but looking at process, waht did the child say to the teacher, how grounded was the teacher in interviewing (hysteric reactions/bias)-- teacher may have informed Child Protection, and how did they handle it (could be a training issue there, re-interviewing and observation skills, judgement)?  Gun, alone, is not a threat-- is there intention?  Something may have gone wrong there.  What were Child Protection protocols for that?  How experienced was the intake worker, and protocol, and advice of supervisor?  Risk assessment usually means intent to do harm, means to do harm-- can't get that information from the child, so how that was handled by police.  I don't think Child Protection would go to a house if there is suspicion that there could be a gun there, so police are called as a policy?  Something procedural is going on there.  Judgement issues.  If police CPIC'd gun owner and his file was flagged for something. . .breech of conditions, etc.

It's a broad concept "suspicion", some serious harm happens to children, where there are no witnesses, so judgement goes by observations of behaviours in child, and interpretations from interviewing and observation (teachers are not particularly skilled at that, nor are some Child Protection workers vs. a child  therapist with experience and training assessing trauma, etc.).  Duty to report, special onus on professionals, but also to citizens as well-- so potentially that's another factor to broad interpretations of that law. . .?

I don't get what you are getting at?  Are you defending the actions of those involved?  Most people here are of the opinion that most of the people involved jumped to some pretty big conclusions based on something most of us can see as fairly innocuous.  The child was at school, in no immediate danger.  What prevented them from say calling dad/mom into the school for a sit down to discuss the picture if there was a concern?  If there were concerns, call police/child services then.  The second issue that seems to be rankling people, me included what was with the ambush?  Why arrest and charge the guy with POSSESSION, before ascertaining if a gun even exists?  Whats wrong with calling the guy into the school (the kid is at the school and safe, the father is not at the home), and asking "Sir we have reason to believe you have a gun, yes/no?"  Him "nope", Well just as a precautionary measure and as a reminder it is against your conditions may we check?  If he agrees they keep him out of the house, they go and search, find the toy, nothing harmful and say thanks for your co-operation, must of have been a misunderstanding.  He doesn't agree, fine formally detain him/arrest him go and get a warrant and search the place.  He still may not have been happy, but people would be more willing to not see this as the clusterfuck it is.
 
Guys we're starting to bog down a good thread with hyperbolic rhetoric.

There are multiple situations of stupidity and overreaction out there. Let's not get hung up on this one.

No one on either side is going to agree with the opposite. This one has already gone around too many times.

Let's just leave it so the thread can stay on track.
 
Hmmm teachers=co-parents,  even as a person with no kids that is one of the stupidest thing I have ever heard, and a lame excuse for how this occurred, but if that's their line of thinking than this whole debacle is starting to make more sense in a weird twisted way.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/28/teachers-should-leave-parenting-to-the-parents

TORONTO - “We do work hand-in-hand with these families because we co-parent.” — Waterloo Regional School District Superintendent Gregg Bereznick

So does this mean the kids at school now refer to their teachers as “co-mom” and “co-dad?”

Does the co-parent attend the ballet recitals, hockey practices, help pay the bills, drop them off at the dental appointments and go down to the hospital when a child has a fever, too?

Or do co-parents stop parenting once their union wages end at 3:30 p.m?

What arrogance!

There are so many questions that have been raised out of the Gungate debacle in Kitchener — from the way police strip search people who have committed no crime to the power social services have to go into a home and retrieve a family’s children for absolutely no valid reason.

But now teachers are partners in parenting too?

Don’t the thousands of good teachers reading this feel overworked already?

“It’s a Marxist-Leninist construct that the state will raise the children,” said Charles McVety, president of Canada Family Action Coalition. “It’s a real throwback to the Soviet era. There’s a real chill in the air.”

No matter how it’s spun, and butts are covered, there was no gun and no crime. What there also was a lack of, was the presumption of innocence.

When tiny Neaveh drew a picture of a gun, had school officials talked to her father Jessie Sansone, or his wife Stephanie Squires, there may have not been any need for an arrest, strip search, humiliation and removal by social services of the family’s four children.

But the co-parents appeared to have co-operated with the state to violate every right this family in this free country is entitled to.

It’s the kind of thing you’d expect in a police state.

“It’s a really scary message to parents,” said McVety. “It’s the state interfering with, and superseding, the actual parents is what it is.”

So many parents commented Tuesday — telling their own stories of educators throwing out subtle barbs that can undermine the real parents.

“My daughter was told it was bad that she was the last kid to be picked up,” said one mom, who was not late but just the last car in the pickup line.

“I remember my child at four getting in trouble in class where they had to think of words that rhyme with “un”, like sun, run, fun, bun,” said another real mother. “My daughter said “gun” and the teacher reamed her out for saying a word even though it rhymed. She wished she hadn’t raised her hand.”

The bottom line is teachers are the teachers and parents are parents.

There are good ones and bad ones and all are influential in a child’s rearing.

But there are only one set of parents.

Still Waterloo Regional School district Superintendent Gregg Bereznick told the Sun News Network’s Kris Sims “by co-parent, I’m talking about teachers and parents working together to support children as they grow up. And so those relationships are important to us, and we value them. But we also understand that within that context, it may be required for us to bring forward a disclosure because it is our legal requirement to do so.”

One problem with his theory is in this case there was no co-parenting at all. It was, in fact, substitute parenting since the girl’s actual parents were not consulted to explain in anyway and instead were disgracefully handed over to be bullied by the state.

“What it amounts to is big-union, leftist, big-government telling children that the parents are the enemy,” said McVety.

And sending the message to them that the state-sponsored co-parents are the ones with the true power.
 
And it gets better

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/28/father-arrested-over-daughters-gun-drawing-wont-get-apology-agency-says

She told QMI Agency if the same situation happened again tomorrow, her organization would do the exact same thing over again.

"I do not see any need for our agency to apologize for fulfilling our mandated responsibility," Scott said.

The drawing that startled the teacher, who started the domino effect, has vanished.

Scott told QMI Agency it was drawn on a white board and had been erased. She doesn't know if anyone other than the teacher ever saw it. She also doesn't know if anyone took an image of it
.
 
I'm only going to say this one more time.

We've moved on from this incident.

Milnet.ca Staff
 
We generally like to post stories of people using firearms to defend themselves as a good reason to open up laws.  Here is a good story illustrating the need for balance and to have effective control measures in place to keep firearms away from yahoos who gun down kids going to their father's house.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20120317/911-calls-released-in-Fla-shooting-120317/
 
Infanteer said:
We generally like to post stories of people using firearms to defend themselves as a good reason to open up laws.  Here is a good story illustrating the need for balance and to have effective control measures in place to keep firearms away from yahoos who gun down kids going to their father's house.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20120317/911-calls-released-in-Fla-shooting-120317/

The incident was in Florida, not Canada. Canada has strict licensing laws and stringent background checks. Thousands of licenses are revoked and suspended yearly in Canada, for various reasons, including mental deficiencies.

The chances of someone in Canada passing the licensing check and being issued a PAL, with a record of assault on a police officer, are near nil.

I guess if we're going to raise issues of gun ownership, outside Canada, we should also include all of the quacks in Africa, the Middle East, Mexico and South America, to name a few, that shouldn't be carrying the guns that they are. It holds the same relevance so far as our apples and their oranges.
 
Just wanted to double-check RG's comment about "thousands" as I thought it was lower, but he was correct.

After much criticism, the RCMP have finally started publishing numbers related to the PAL / Registry stuff. For anybody interested, it's here http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/facts-faits/index-eng.htm

One of the things that's stuck out in my mind is that there are over 1.9 million people with some sort of license to posses a firearm, but ~2000-2100 are getting revoked each year. When you consider that any type of crime, or even groundless complaints I would reckon, is basically going to get your license revoked, it really shows that the crime rate among firearm-license holders is certainly much lower than crime rate of average citizens (according to the numbers I am looking at anyway).


Infanteer said:
We generally like to post stories of people using firearms to defend themselves as a good reason to open up laws.  Here is a good story illustrating the need for balance and to have effective control measures in place to keep firearms away from yahoos who gun down kids going to their father's house.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20120317/911-calls-released-in-Fla-shooting-120317/

You're right, there are some parts of the US that are at the other extreme of spectrum, and I don't want to be on that extreme either. In Canada, however, we are nowhere close. As RG said, that guy would have never been allowed to own a gun here with his violent history / criminal past, let alone out patrolling around playing "Neighbourhood Watch Captain..." wtf is that all about anyway?
 
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