The Mess

[dimsum]

Take the O-Train???



Too soon?

I refuse to acknowledge that method of transport exists.

 

[dangerboy]

Me, too ... but I couldn't find it so, some news for folks in the National Capital (from an E-maIl I received from the Army Officers Mess):

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Dear AOM Membership,

NCR Combined Officer’s Mess

As many of you may know, both the RCAF Mess and the RCN Mess buildings have been closed for some time and the decision has now been made to keep them closed due to the costs associated with getting them reopened. Following guidance from the Commander CFSG(O-G), the three officer messes in the NCR (Airforce, Army, and Navy) will be amalgamated into the NCR Combined Officers’ Mess as of 1 April 2024 with the AOM building being the new home for all officers. Over the past few months, the executive committees of all messes have been meeting, working towards understanding and planning the way ahead for the combined mess. I can assure you all that thorough analysis and collaboration is ongoing, with the guidance of CFMWS, to ensure due consideration is happening concerning every aspect of the amalgamation. For example (but not limited to):

New Executive Committee Design
New Constitution
Budgets
Building plan (artifacts)
Mess dues
Events/Calendar

The first General Mess Meeting (GMM) for the new combined officer’s mess will be held on 15 Feb 2024 where many of your questions will be able to be addressed. I ask for your patience as we are still trying to figure out the details and not in a position to provide more currently.

-----
If a Mod knows a better place for this please move it there.

I think that the issue isn’t getting people to leave, it’s how to get them downtown. If there were parking chits (free parking at the City Hall lot, for example) on weekend events, or taxi/Uber reimbursement so they don’t need to drive downtown at all, that would help. Maybe move some events to Saturdays or Sundays, rather than forcing people to drive from Carling to downtown at rush hour on a Friday.

I think this is the issue. I work on the Gatineau side and live in Orleans and at the end of the day don't want to be driving downtown during rush hour.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Wow... That Wardroom was sacred ground to a lot of Naval Officers.

 

[Furniture]

Maybe move some events to Saturdays or Sundays, rather than forcing people to drive from Carling to downtown at rush hour on a Friday.

I'm going to bring this up at my next committee meeting... Maybe TGIS makes more sense these days that TGIF/TGIT.

I know that for our mess a lot was done on Thursdays to accommodate IR members, but now that most aren't living downtown and going to the mess regularly, it might be time to switch things up.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'm going to bring this up at my next committee meeting... Maybe TGIS makes more sense these days that TGIF/TGIT.

I know that for our mess a lot was done on Thursdays to accommodate IR members, but now that most aren't living downtown and going to the mess regularly, it might be time to switch things up.

Probably more effective for events where mess members can bring their partners too.

Babysitters are rare like hen's teeth on Friday nights!

 

[Remius]

I refuse to acknowledge that method of transport exists.

Oh it exists. Hard to deny that.

But refusing to acknowledge that it is an existing VIABLE method of transport (transport is used loosely here and only for context) is fair.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I think the downtown facility is going to be used primarily by associate (retired) members and it will, gradually, evolve into an Annex. I've heard the same things Furniture mentioned but I've also heard that "they" (whoever "they" are - but I think some pretty senior officers) want to rearrange things so that there is a facility out at Carling for both daytime/end of day use and, eventually, even something new that will be attractive for evening/weekend functions.

I'm not sure how much of a long term future messes have. They may have made eminent good sense in the 19th and 20th centuries, especially in remote locations, but can they survive in thew 21st? Should they? Do you serving members need to subsidize a beautiful (and valuable) old building so that I can go and hoist a few beers with other old retired colonels on the occasion Friday?

 

[Gunnar]

The real issue is, what can the messes do to get people interested in leaving the comfort of their homes? Messes thrived before people could sit on their couch and have access to the entire internet's distractions.

I understand that back in the day, drinks were significantly cheaper as federal and provincial taxes were not paid thereon. What incentive do I have to hang with my workmates and build camaraderie in an antiquated building for which I am required to pay dues and which charges me standard rates? Screw that, I'll go the the local pub, pay the same rates, avoid that annoying prick Joe Bloggins and maybe meet women who aren't an HR issue/I don't have to work with if they don't like my approach.

It's not the comfort of my home, it's the market value of the joint as a hang-out.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Thanks @Edward Campbell, that's great news; maybe now we can get the RCN mess dues down further (currently $30/month, used to be $36/month). That had edged up over the years to we could have a fund to fix the old building... despite not supposed to use the NPF funds for things like maintaining a building.

I guess the real question is, can we wear the devil's fabric at the AOM?

Went to the AOM a few times when I worked downtown when they had open events, and it was probably in the best shape of the 3 buildings (with the RCN being the worst) as well as best attended. But at least this way they've finally got rid of the 3 separate officer messes; in the age of interoperability and joint ops it was just weird, and was usually where I found out friends from basic etc are back in town and working on overlapping areas.

If one of the big arguements for staff college is to meet officers in other elements to do networking, then not having a shared mess in the NCR is pretty counter intuitive.

The RCAF O Mess had a lot of virtual events, like virtual wine tasting (you picked up the kit and went on Zoom with a few friends). They also had take-home dinners that you heated up at home.

They occasionally had in-person events too but aside from the beer tasting, I wasn’t able to attend them.

I think that the issue isn’t getting people to leave, it’s how to get them downtown. If there were parking chits (free parking at the City Hall lot, for example) on weekend events, or taxi/Uber reimbursement so they don’t need to drive downtown at all, that would help. Maybe move some events to Saturdays or Sundays, rather than forcing people to drive from Carling to downtown at rush hour on a Friday.

I think the various messes did a lot virtually over the last few years, but with no one being downtown and transit sucking I don't see how it's really sustainable. Unless I get into a specific job that requires daily in office work though (ie due to security of material, type of work etc), they will need to pry hybrid work in the NCR out of my cold, dead hands (or release message I guess).

It's too bad though, as the RCAF mess was probably the most chill out of all of them, and their Friday gratis growlies was great (in the before times). The AOM and Bytown were both a bit stiffer and uptight.

The Bytown was in pretty terrible shape though; when they finally shut it down it was because of numerous fire code violations and other major issues with the old building. And because it's a heritage property it's a nightmare. I expect it will be left to rot, unfortunately, until it finally gets sold and consolidated with some other buildings to a tear down for something more useable.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I understand that back in the day, drinks were significantly cheaper as federal and provincial taxes were not paid thereon. What incentive do I have to hang with my workmates and build camaraderie in an antiquated building for which I am required to pay dues and which charges me standard rates? Screw that, I'll go the the local pub, pay the same rates, avoid that annoying prick Joe Bloggins and maybe meet women who aren't an HR issue/I don't have to work with if they don't like my approach.

It's not the comfort of my home, it's the market value of the joint as a hang-out.

And not have to worry about wearing jeans, not recognizing some big giant head, office politics etc. Weird to have to pay to belong to a social club that imposes a lot of arbitrary rules and customs while being full of office politics, plus not welcome in a lot of the team you work with.

So much easier to just go to a pub instead.

 

[McG]

Do you serving members need to subsidize a beautiful (and valuable) old building so that I can go and hoist a few beers with other old retired colonels on the occasion Friday?

The problem is that many think beer is the purpose of the mess because it had been central for so long. The reality is that beer was a means. The purpose of the mess is social interaction, group cohesion, cross-group cohesion, and identity building.

Maybe it needs to be redefined from first principles, but it does need to exist.

 

[ballz]

To flip back to the OP's question, I pondered about this out loud on the site before.

There is a financial delegation of authorities for NPF just like there is for public funds. I've seen it and there was nothing on there that authorizes anybody to impose a levy / issue a debt to someone.

When I brought it up someone pulled out a policy saying "I've been down this road before, here's the policy we always provided to troops who challenged our ability to charge them." But that policy just said that the Base Comd can collect on a debt, it did not say that they could impose a debt on someone.

So the truth is, while they can make you a member of a mess, it does not appear there is any authority, anywhere, to impose a levy, and I suspect it's just been a practice that's existed since Christ was a toddler back when questioning anything about anything in the CAF got you latrine duties.

If the OP really wants to challenge it, I would submit a grievance based on the above argument but only if he's willing to go to judicial review stage since the legal/financial ramifications for the CAF would be such that the legal advice the CAF will get will be to fight it to the nth degree, regardless of who is right or wrong.

I considered going to see a law firm about starting a class action now that I'm out, but I've decided my life is better off not worrying about the CAF.

 

[ballz]

That involves opening up the NDA and K R&Os to revise the part about it being mandatory to belong to a mess.

As I mentioned, mess membership being mandatory and being imposed a levy are two different things.

@FJAG can clarify, but it has been explained to me that the "mess" in legal terms also factors in CFMWS, which is a nice little loophole around the Income Tax Act section on "taxable benefits." So yes, we are forced to join the "mess" as an organization IOT avoid having to pay for the gym and such out of pocket.

Definitely not true.

Whether something is a taxable benefit or not comes down to whether the primary reason for it is for the employer's benefit or not. That's why ILP funding was not a taxable benefit, because the education had to be in the "CAF's interest," "job-related," etc. (at least on paper). If it was a blanket "do any program you want" program, it would be a taxable benefit for the employee.

There's a clear primary benefit to the CAF in providing free gym facilities to it's members given that it requires them to meet physical fitness standards, job safety, etc. etc. etc.

 

[dimsum]

The problem is that many think beer is the purpose of the mess because it had been central for so long. The reality is that beer was a means. The purpose of the mess is social interaction, group cohesion, cross-group cohesion, and identity building.

Maybe it needs to be redefined from first principles, but it does need to exist.

Definitely, and I will go on my soapbox again and argue that there should also be an All-Ranks area as well.

14 Wing Greenwood, JTFN in Yellowknife, and Canadian Element NORAD in Colorado Springs have some form of All-Ranks Mess. The last two is probably because it’s not viable to have 3 messes for that number of people, but 14 Wing is an example where there are the segregated areas but the “Tow Bar”, or the all-ranks area, is where most hang out.

I understand that some folks won’t want to drink with their bosses, and in that case they would probably not be in the building anyway. But my experience is that I would want to have a drink with my crew, which consisted of folks from Avr to Maj.

Fiscally it would work better as well. 14 Wing’s Annapolis Mess only needed 1/3 of the bartenders as most would order drinks from the Tow Bar and then walk over to the O Mess, Sgts Mess, or JRs Mess if they wanted.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I'm not sure how much of a long term future messes have. They may have made eminent good sense in the 19th and 20th centuries, especially in remote locations, but can they survive in thew 21st? Should they? Do you serving members need to subsidize a beautiful (and valuable) old building so that I can go and hoist a few beers with other old retired colonels on the occasion Friday?

I think that messes and mess culture still have a place in the CAF, however, the marketing as a "bar" vice a social institution is where the problem lies.

I stopped drinking years ago, but I still attend mess functions whenever they come up, including TGITs and the like. Why? I enjoy being in a relaxed setting with my peers, enjoying pretty good (often "free") food, and getting to enjoy a part of our culture that cannot be replicated in a civilian atmosphere.

I may have to put up with Bloggins, or mind my Ps & Qs around the Base Comd. That said I also don't have to tolerate Mr. Joe McFuckFace , dressed in his best sweats and stained t-shirt, loudly providing a racial tirade or sexualized remark as my entertainment for dinner; as has been the case many a time when I have tried to go out to dinner with my wife or with friends. as much as we can get "similar" in town, we can't get the common values, norms, and attitudes that help make mess life and experiences unique.

I think also the labeling of the mess as strictly a "watering hole" has worn away a lot of it's true purpose in it's founding. Messes were the dining/living room of those far from home or living in. One complaint I dealt with from CFSCE students constantly in my life as a Course Director was that their rooms were too small, and that the common rooms were scant for entertainment. I was looked at as a beast with 3 heads for encouraging them to go to the mess if they were bored or wanted to entertain their guests or themselves. It was then finding out that the Mess is only opened on Thursdays and Fridays that the kicker really set in. The CFMWS Mess Manager would only open the mess if there was going to be enough business to cover the bartender. That left only the TGIT and TGIFs as the times my students could use those facilities, because, profit.

Over to my life as a Signals Officer, and we were using the Vimy Officer's Mess as not only a place to bond as a team, but as a study hall, a dining room (the mess staff were more than accommodating to us ordering in Uber Eats and chowing down while we did Estimates), and the link between those living in and those who were living out. I often would be lost in my work and find a cup of coffee or a refilled glass when I looked up because our presence justified the use of the facility and the Base Comd was excited to see more than the TGIT crowd using this beautiful resource for more than one time a week. Since then, units are conducting PD in the mess, they're having promotions, they're having conferences; more than strictly a place to go down a couple after work.

If messes are to survive in the 21st century, with the current attitudes to alcohol and previous debauchery, I would offer than the Mess needs a return to the attitudes of the 19th century: This is your home away from home, its your living room and dining room, and it's where the CAF comes to host and entertain one another and our guests. That doesn't need to turn a profit, and if it does than it's a bonus.

CFMWS can get stuffed with their business model for all I care.

 

[Navy_Pete]

@rmc_wannabe right on, fully agree. I think it would also be great if there were more 'all ranks' sections like what @dimsum mentioned.

The only plus side of some of the cuts and closures is that now you at least have a single common dining room on the base, but outside of meal hours it's hit or miss if there is something simple like a cafeteria or common area to socialize at something that isn't a bar, and most of the cafeterias aren't open outside normal business hours.

Simple things like a working coffee machine somewhere would be awesome, and functional spaces where you don't need to rely on having a bartender or something in the strange hours they are open to get to would be great. Drives me crazy going to a room that has a mini fridge, kettle etc, but there isn't a cup to make some instant coffee.

The coastal RCN officer messes don't really have any good lounge areas that are okay for just informal socializing outside the bar being open (although I guess Workpoint annex in Esq has the GunRoom, which is more relaxed but haven't been there in years, so no idea what it's like) . Last time I was on TD we ended up socializing in someone's room as they had a suite with some couches, as well as crashing the patio, but was pretty ad hoc. Only really worked because it was pretty empty otherwise and it was a small number of us.

But again, if I have to go to the mess cafeteria to grab a bad coffee at about the same as a decent cup of coffee somewhere that is better set up for socializing, why would I go to the mess?

Would say that the RN messes I've been are much better set up for that, but it's more common there for people to live in during the week then drive home for the weekend. But they had common rooms with things like ping pong, couches, big tv for watching movies etc that you oculd use whether or not the bar was open, with things like boardgames, etc also kicking around for peopel to use.

 

[Furniture]

Something akin to a "Liberty Center" like USN bases have for Jr. enlisted sailors would likely go over quite well on most Canadian bases. The Liberty Centers have movie areas, couches, food, wifi, etc..

I know when I was posted to, and on course in Winnipeg we hardly went to the mess, because we couldn't count on the mess being open. The mess never opened because people didn't go, but people didn't go because it was never open...

 

[dimsum]

Would say that the RN messes I've been are much better set up for that, but it's more common there for people to live in during the week then drive home for the weekend. But they had common rooms with things like ping pong, couches, big tv for watching movies etc that you oculd use whether or not the bar was open, with things like boardgames, etc also kicking around for peopel to use.

At least a few years ago, that’s how 14 Wing Annapolis Mess was set up.

One building, with the bottom floor being the eating mess. The second floor was the O Mess, WO/Sgts, and JRs, plus the Tow Bar. If I recall correctly, the WO/Sgts and JRs had one of those movable walls so it could be one big area as well.

I don’t recall if the WO/Sgts or JRs had the big TV, etc but the O Mess definitely did. The Tow Bar also had an annex with dartboards, pool tables, etc.

I know when I was posted to, and on course in Winnipeg we hardly went to the mess, because we couldn't count on the mess being open. The mess never opened because people didn't go, but people didn't go because it was never open...

Last time I was in Winnipeg, it seemed like the Wobbly Prop was where everyone hung out.

 

[Navy_Pete]

At least a few years ago, that’s how 14 Wing Annapolis Mess was set up.

One building, with the bottom floor being the eating mess. The second floor was the O Mess, WO/Sgts, and JRs, plus the Tow Bar. If I recall correctly, the WO/Sgts and JRs had one of those movable walls so it could be one big area as well.

I don’t recall if the WO/Sgts or JRs had the big TV, etc but the O Mess definitely did. The Tow Bar also had an annex with dartboards, pool tables, etc.


Last time I was in Winnipeg, it seemed like the Wobbly Prop was where everyone hung out.

That sounds great; and especially important on the more remote locations. Even Shearwater, which is in theory in Halifax, unless you had a car you were effectively miles from the front gate, let alone anywhere off base that was decent.

 

[McG]

Definitely, and I will go on my soapbox again and argue that there should also be an All-Ranks area as well.

There is definitely a place for the all-ranks social facility, and I think this could usually be provided by the CANEX operated restaurant/pub that one finds on many (most?) major bases ... except many such locations are too small, too focused around their bars, and/or lack event rooms that can be booked for DwDs or sub-sub unit socials.