The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[jmt18325]

How would you magically create new qualified technicians in YBG?!

It sounds like it would be less of a challenge to have people live there.  The alternative would be to create a new fighter base somewhere line Trenton, Winnipeg, Halifax, etc. 

 

[Quirky]

It sounds like it would be less of a challenge to have people live there.  The alternative would be to create a new fighter base somewhere line Trenton, Winnipeg, Halifax, etc.

English speaking people don't want to live in baggotville - the home of the 40 year old Cpl with 20 years experience on the jet. They don't have the retention problems cold lake has.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Getting people to live there is a problem you have AFTER you post them there.  When there is no body to fill those positions, this is irrelevant.

 

[YZT580]

If you are looking for a base within a couple of hours of a major city you could do far worse than YYB.  The hole is still available and housing is not too expensive.  It has a 10,000 ft runway, the alert hangers are still there and it is only a 4 hour drive to Toronto.  Lots of activities both summer and winter.  The airport is far enough out from the city that noise isn't a problem and northern Ontario provides lots of room for training.  Major disadvantage (Wynne)

 

[SupersonicMax]

If you are looking for a base within a couple of hours of a major city you could do far worse than YYB.  The hole is still available and housing is not too expensive.  It has a 10,000 ft runway, the alert hangers are still there and it is only a 4 hour drive to Toronto.  Lots of activities both summer and winter.  The airport is far enough out from the city that noise isn't a problem and northern Ontario provides lots of room for training.  Major disadvantage (Wynne)

Not much different than Cold Lake and Edmonton.  Not much gained by using North Bay.

 

[observor 69]

English speaking people don't want to live in baggotville - the home of the 40 year old Cpl with 20 years experience on the jet. They don't have the retention problems cold lake has.

I'm one of those English speakers. Been there done that as an AVS tech many years ago. An Anglo family pays a high price, lack of job and education opportunity. Also remote from relatives. The Parc des Laurentide used to be a real obstacle to travel to the outside world in the winter.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

How about Dundurn, Saskatchewan? It is owned by the RCAF; has about 50,000 acres in which to build an airfield; it is out in the country but still only 25kms from Saskatoon and the ammo supply is right next door.

Easy flying distance to both CLAWR and Wainwright.

What is not to like?

 

[Kirkhill]

How about Dundurn, Saskatchewan? It is owned by the RCAF; has about 50,000 acres in which to build an airfield; it is out in the country but still only 25kms from Saskatoon and the ammo supply is right next door.

Easy flying distance to both CLAWR and Wainwright.

What is not to like?

You should be in real estate.  ;D

 

[Bearpaw]

I think SeaKingTacco has hit it right on the head!  I used Google Maps to look around a bit and came to exactly the same conclusion.
Just to the south of the ammunition depot there is a large area that looks suitable for long runways,....

Bearpaw

 

[dimsum]

How about Dundurn, Saskatchewan? It is owned by the RCAF; has about 50,000 acres in which to build an airfield; it is out in the country but still only 25kms from Saskatoon and the ammo supply is right next door.

Easy flying distance to both CLAWR and Wainwright.

What is not to like?

 

[Quirky]

I think SeaKingTacco has hit it right on the head!  I used Google Maps to look around a bit and came to exactly the same conclusion.
Just to the south of the ammunition depot there is a large area that looks suitable for long runways,....

Bearpaw

There is no reason to build a completely new base from scratch. We should utilize exsisting infrastructure at civilian airports and build around them. The Americans do it really well, for example Anchorage and Portland.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Ok then, scratch Dundurn- Saskatoon, Regina or Moose Jaw.

Moose Jaw would have the advantage in that a lot of pilots would get Geo-stability on their posting...

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

There is no reason to build a completely new base from scratch. We should utilize exsisting infrastructure at civilian airports and build around them. The Americans do it really well, for example Anchorage and Portland.

They also have the advantage of being more secure than our current establishments which may as well not even have security. 

 

[suffolkowner]

The turn this thread has taken is fascinating but I wonder how well it would go over in Ottawa or how much support there would be for such an endeavor both in military and civilian corridors. It seems like to big a task for Ottawa to handle.
When was the last time a newish infrastructure program of this scale was undertaken?
Still, have we narrowed down the field of possible locations?
Is this really the answer to the retention issues?

 

[Quirky]

They also have the advantage of being more secure than our current establishments which may as well not even have security.

Then why not rotate troops from Army units to handle base security. I don't think there will be a shortage of volunteers from wainwright or shilo to guard airplanes in Air Force bases.

The turn this thread has taken is fascinating but I wonder how well it would go over in Ottawa or how much support there would be for such an endeavor both in military and civilian corridors. It seems like to big a task for Ottawa to handle.
When was the last time a newish infrastructure program of this scale was undertaken?
Still, have we narrowed down the field of possible locations?
Is this really the answer to the retention issues?

IMHO yes it is. You can lower PMQ rates and raise PLD but people will still be miserable living in remote areas for over a decade. Look at Yellowknife, people love it there because they know it's a four year posting and you will be so far ahead financially when you leave with NLA.

Now is the perfect time to relocate, all the infrastructure needs replacing anyway, why not use another existing airfield to build new hangars and support buildings. I know it's a pipedream and will never happen however. Things will only get worse with retention in the future without a major change. I hate to say it, but the squadrons need to fail before someone wakes up.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Then why not rotate troops from Army units to handle base security. I don't think there will be a shortage of volunteers from wainwright or shilo to guard airplanes in Air Force bases.

IMHO yes it is. You can lower PMQ rates and raise PLD but people will still be miserable living in remote areas for over a decade. Look at Yellowknife, people love it there because they know it's a four year posting and you will be so far ahead financially when you leave with NLA.

Now is the perfect time to relocate, all the infrastructure needs replacing anyway, why not use another existing airfield to build new hangars and support buildings. I know it's a pipedream and will never happen however. Things will only get worse with retention in the future without a major change. I hate to say it, but the squadrons need to fail before someone wakes up.

The territories are a diff beast entirely.  You've got an education and are willing to live there, guaranteed to get a good job, either in the resource extraction or working for the territorial govt. 

 

[MarkOttawa]

Start of Public Services and Procurement Canada webpage, further links at original:

Replacing and supplementing Canada’s CF-18 fleet

The Government of Canada committed to replacing Canada’s fleet of CF-18 fighter aircraft through an open and transparent competition. Until a permanent replacement arrives, we are exploring supplementing our existing fleet with 18 Super Hornet aircraft.

Consult this web page often to stay informed about the competition to permanently replace our fighter fleet and the possible purchase of interim Super Hornet aircraft.
On this page

    Permanent replacement of the current fleet
    Exploring an interim solution
...
http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/air/snac-nfps/CF-18-eng.html

Looks like FMS contract for Super Hornets might be done by 2018, Boeing in catbird's seat for negotiating industrial benefits since we're already committed.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MilEME09]

Well thats great that it is going quickly, however how long to we wait for those air frames? 3 years? 5 years? I'd rather us hold the compitition, declare a winner, and have a new fleet start delivery in 5 years or so.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Wonder what the costs will be, nature of the industrial offsets.  Any two-seater Fs?  CP story:

Liberals take next step toward buying Super Hornets, hope for deal by year's end

The Liberal government has taken the next step towards buying 18 Super Hornet fighter jets on an interim basis, a purchase it hopes to make official by year's end.

The government sent a letter to the U.S. government today outlining exactly what it needs in the warplanes, when it needs them, and what type of economic benefits Canada expects in return.

Aerospace giant Boeing will use those requirements to come up with a formal proposal to Canada by the fall, with the government hoping for a formal contract by the end of 2017 or early 2018.

Any agreement must also be approved by the U.S. Congress.

The government announced in November its plans to augment Canada's aging CF-18 fleet with the Hornets until a full competition to replace the CF-18s could be held in 2019.

But a number of retired military officers have called for an immediate competition, saying an interim fighter fleet will be more expensive and hurt the air force in the long run.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/liberals-take-next-step-toward-buying-super-hornets-hope-for-deal-by-year-s-end-1.3324442

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

Gov't news release--wants 100% offsets:

Government of Canada Announces Next Steps in Potential Procurement of Interim Fighter Capability
Submission of Letter of Request to United States Government

OTTAWA, ONTARIO--(Marketwired - March 14, 2017) - Government of Canada

A modern fighter jet fleet is essential for defending Canada and Canadian sovereignty, especially in our northern skies.

Canada has been exploring the potential acquisition of new Super Hornet aircraft to supplement the current fleet until an open and transparent competition can be completed to replace Canada's legacy CF-18 fleet. Over the course of the last few months, Government of Canada officials have been meeting with United States (U.S.) government officials, and with Boeing, on a regular basis to discuss meeting this interim need.

Yesterday, the Government of Canada took another important step toward the potential acquisition of an interim fleet. In a Letter of Request submitted to the U.S. government, Canada outlined its requirements on capabilities, schedule and economic benefits for 18 Super Hornet aircraft.

Canada has confirmed to the U.S. government its commitment to applying its Industrial and Technological Benefits Policy on this potential acquisition, which requires suppliers to make investments in Canada equal to 100% of their contract value. This policy will provide Canadian companies with opportunities to directly participate in this procurement, develop Canadian-based suppliers, support innovation through research and development, grow export opportunities for Canadian firms, and create jobs for middle-class Canadians.

Following receipt of this letter, the U.S. Department of Defense will engage Boeing and other suppliers to develop an official proposal. This process includes the U.S. government's notification to its Congress about the potential sale of Super Hornets to Canada.

As early as fall 2017, Canada expects to receive a response from the U.S. government. The proposal will be reviewed to determine if the U.S. government can provide the interim solution at a cost, schedule, level of capability and economic value acceptable to Canada. If this process is successful, Canada could enter into a formal agreement with the U.S. government for the interim aircraft and associated elements of in-service support as early as the end of 2017 or the beginning of 2018.

In parallel, Canada will also undertake formal discussions with potential suppliers regarding economic benefits for Canadian industry to meet the requirements of the Industrial and Technological Benefits Policy. This will ensure that the potential procurement of interim aircraft will help grow Canada's aerospace and defence sector, create high-value jobs and support Canadian innovation.

The Government of Canada will continue to provide updates and keep Canadians informed of its progress as it moves forward on replacing and supplementing Canada's fighter aircraft...

Contact Information

    Annie Trepanier
    Office of the Honourable Judy M. Foote
    819-997-5421

    Media Relations
    Public Services and Procurement Canada
    819-420-5501
    media@tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca

    Jordan Owens
    Office of the Minister of National Defence
    613-996-3100

    Media Relations
    Department of National Defence
    613-996-2353
    Toll-free: 1-866-377-0811
    mlo-blm@forces.gc.ca

    Nilani Logeswaran
    Office of the Minister of Innovation,
    Science and Economic Development
    343-291-2500

    Media Relations
    Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada
    343-291-1777
    ic.mediarelations-mediasrelations.ic@canada.ca
http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/government-canada-announces-next-steps-potential-procurement-interim-fighter-capability-2202856.htm

Mark
Ottawa