The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
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Halifax Tar
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CountDC said:
Last year when I went to the Bedford ranges we RCN folks had the option of NCDs or CADPAT if the member had them. No helmets or webbing. Just eye pro and ear pro.
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It's sad that we've so easily accepted the CAF being unable to supply and life cycle manage less than 100,000 rucksacks, boots and sleeping bags as being "efficient with resources". It's down right shameful for a 1st world military to think and act this way, but we all know that no project manager/GOFO/public servant/MND will lose their jobs over it.
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Remius said:This is from the CANFORGEN on who gets to keep their rucks. But I would assume there will be exceptions. We have Class B types parading but not on the unit establishment for example. The NCR has recently sent out times and dates as well as mobile drop off points. Plenty of people in Ottawa don't need rucksacks or sleeping bags.
MEMBERS FROM THE FOLLOWING UNITS OR FORMATIONS ARE AUTHORIZED TO RETAIN THE MATERIEL IN PARA 3 ON THEIR INDIVIDUAL ACCOUNTS IAW THE QUANTITIES SPECIFIED ON APPLICABLE SCALES OF ISSUE:
CA: ALL DIV HQ(S), CMBG(S), CBG(S), CRPG(S), CDSG(S), DIV TRG CENTERS, INT COY(S), RCEMES, CSSB, CTC, CMTC, AND PSTC
RCAF: 1 WING: 403, 408, 430 AND 450 SQN. 2 WING: 2 WING HQ, 2 ACCU, 2 AES, 8 ACCS, 4 CES, 2 ERC AND AEW. 17 WING: 440 SQN
RCN: FDU(A), FDU(P)
CFINTCOM: JTF(X), CFNCIU(S), JMC, CFJIC, AND MCE
CJOC: CJOC HQ, ALL CFJOSG UNITS, 1 CDN DIV, JTF(N) HQ AND ASU(N)
SOFCOM: ALL UNITS AND HQ
MPC:
(1)CFHS GP:
(A)CF H SVCS GP HQ, CFHSTC FD INSTR CADRE, REG F FD UNITS AND DETS: 1, 2, AND 5 FD AMB, 1 CDN FD HOSP, P RES FD AMBS AND DETS
(B)ALL CDR/LCOL,LCDR/MAJ AND LT(N)/CAPT OF MED(00196-04),ALL RANKS OFA(00374-01),MED TECH(00334-01),BE TECH (00155-01),MLAB TECH (00152-01),MRAD TECH (00153-01),PMED TECH (00371-02),OR TECH (00372- 01),AND NUR (00195)
(2)CFLRS, CFLTC, CMR ST JEAN, AND RMC
ALL CA STUDENTS (BTL) UNTIL AFTER DP1 QUALIFIED OR MBRS LOADED ON COURSES/TASKING FOR THE DURATION OF TRG
VCDS: ARMY MP GP HQ: 1, 2, 3, AND 5 MP REGT. CADET ORGANIZATIONS WILL RETAIN THE KIT UNTIL AN APPROPRIATE REPLACEMENT IS PROVIDED. ALL CADET INSTRUCTORS CADRE AND HQ STAFF WILL RETURN THE ITEMS IN PARA 3
THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE TO THE ENTITLEMENTS FOR MEMBERS ON OPERATION OR OUTCAN. CFTPO TO STATE IF A MBR REQUIRES A TEMPORARY ISSUE OF KIT FOR AN EXERCISE OR A SHORT NTM TASK (EXAMPLE DART)
Word on the street is that the RCAF wasn't consulted... we were told to keep them... but I'll probably just return them... I have only used them during survival training (5 times in 13 years)
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I am reasonably certain that all DND/CAF Level 1 organizations were consulted. Whether the staff in the HQs checked with their subordinate formations before sending their returns is a valid question.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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dapaterson said:
One of my NCOs used to be the storeman out at Albert Head. He's pretty sure that the hundreds of sleeping bags and rucks that he managed during his tenure are still being held in stores out there.
How many similar 'little piles of joy' are there across Canada, unknown to those on high, I wonder?
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If he did his job right, those holdings are visible.
Halifax Tar
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daftandbarmy said:
None in Halifax and almost none in NS. Shearwater, DKYRD and the Armouries are all at zero stock levels. We had to draw off Greenwood to send our divers up north.
PuckChaser said:
That's not 100% true PC. I would bet that there are a ton of people in the CAF who have Rucks and sleeping bag sys complete that aren't entitled to them. We have an unfounded belief that the Canadian Forces Supply System is a constant failure, when in reality its not. Its actually a very good system that we, the whole of the CAF, abuse and circumvent and then blame said system for failure. We have a problem in the CAF and its Kit hoarding. And its not just limited to clothing, its also spare parts.
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Was more a rant about lack of funding. With no money to buy enough items and keep them stocked, CFSS is forced to constantly make items deployment only or change entitlements to do the best job possible. When you underfund projects and aren't allowed to buy replacements for broken kit, we get this problem.
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Halifax Tar said:
This is wrong, we are not well supplied! We aren't talking about tanks or planes here, we are talking about basic equipment a soldier needs to function in the field. A rucksack should be issued to every member of the Army and Air Force on joining the Forces, it certainly shouldn't be a controlled item, it's a large hiking bag for god sakes.
It's especially bad when you consider that we are supposed to be a professional force with an expeditionary mindset. We can't even get uniforms or boots right. The real problem is we don't maintain a national stockpile of war stock any more. I'm of the opinion that the CAF should, at a minimum, maintain 3x the amount of kit as personnel in its Active Force. Shortages should be dealt with by drawing from the National Stockpile and the National Stockpile should be periodically topped up.
Taking this a step further, I believe Reserve units should maintain a stockpile of basic equipment - uniforms, weapons, equipment, etc. To be able to rapidly outfit a Battalion. Considering the Reserves are supposed to be a mobilization force, this would make sense.
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Halifax Tar said:
When your HPR standard timeline is 5 days, yes your system is broken. That's why people hoard parts. FedEx/Purolator/Canada Post can deliver it the next day. An aircraft goes down on Monday? You won't see it back online until at least Tuesday the next week (that's if the right part comes in and it is serviceable)
When you have to use NSN for ordering aircraft parts (which some parts have the same NSN - for example a same part for different side of the aircraft), your system is broken and that's why people order 4 of the same part hoping to get one that is the correct one.
MJP
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SupersonicMax said:
The spare parts system flaws are much deeper than just material priority codes, required delivery dates and identification of parts. There is a fundamental lack of understanding of how to properly scale and manage parts that flows down from ADMMAT all the way down to the units both in a practical sense and in our wonderful system of record DRMIS (Defence Resource Management Information System).
SAP/DRMIS is a powerful tool that we haven't used properly cause quite frankly there are very few people that understand how to use it to its full potential (myself included). We put decent people in positions who get the ball a bit further ahead but then we post them out and their work collapses because the next guy has a grander or different plan. One of the very smart people in the CA has PowerPoint that highlights our mismanagement of parts in DRMIS by showing the ordering history of one small part worth less than a dollar. It shows a number of separate orders for this part in a short time span from a single unit that went all to the depots (so 3rd line support) and back down to the units. These washers come from the manufacturer in packs of ten but every time the unit ordered one, the package would be broken at the depot level and one part extracted and sent all the way down to the unit. The issue is simple to fix if:
- LCMM/TA put in a batch # (that way you could only order 10 at time)
- That the unit's 2nd line support repair parts section had the parts in stock with max/mins set (max and mins being the most you should hold and the re-order point)
- The unit themselves had scaling with max and mins set
Those are just the simple from the ground floor things that are wrong, there are a number of issues with how we acquire and control stock at our highest levels (as evident by the CANFORGEN in question).
Overall I don't blame the units in particular cause they are the last stop in the grotesque chain which has led to many of them employing practices that contribute to breaking the system. Recently, Canadian Material Support Group has recognized that they have flaws in their management of material and its delivery and they have thrown money at the problem in the interim while they figure out a better way forward but there needs to be a holistic look at the issues and the fixes need to be at every level.
MJP
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SupersonicMax said:
Your post also reminded me that we have a very flawed way of looking at our broken vehicles and triaging them at least in the CA. So every unit brfs on their Vehicle Off-Road (VOR) as a percentage of how many vehs are broken. The common thought is high VOR is bad and when it reaches a certain point we should be throwing the kitchen sink at the problem until it is low. We also use a veh priority repair list which drives what vehs are priority over other vehs when it comes to triaging repairs. Talking to a very smart dude it is a bit ass backwards, we really should be looking at what are your current tasks and what do you need to do them? If you are Immediate Reaction Unit West and you need 10 MSVS trucks for example as long as you have 10 that can roll you are GTG. If you breach that threshold, that is your repair priority not the 30 other broken vehs that can't help you accomplish your assigned task. Sounds pretty common sense but for some reason we fixate on VOR% rather than capability.
We actually just had this methodology applied in an operational theater with a fairly diverse fleet and once people grasped the concept it worked out great. It also worked because it was command driven, made sense and we could focus on fixing what mattered as it was linked to actual tasks/capbility, not what was arbitrarily picked as a priority.
Sorry, I have completely hijacked the thread
Halifax Tar
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Humphrey Bogart said:
Rucks and sleeping aren't a controlled item. They are accountable, but they aren't controlled. And no not every member of the CA or RCAF needs a Field kit. Lots of positions outside of line units and including some line units have no requirement for pers to have field kit. Its called Field Kit SOI because it meant to equip those members who are expected to go to the field on a frequent enough basis to warrant an issue. Your uniform or service (RCAF/RCN/CA ect) does not dictate your SOIs, your UIC and billet number do. I can tell you for a fact that there are lots of RCN folks walking around with field kit that was issue for courses or tasking's that haven't been returned yet, this is what I mean as an example of kit hoarding.
Humphrey Bogart said:
Procuring the right uniforms or boots isn't really what we are talking about here. As for having more stock, ok. No argument there.
Humphrey Bogart said:
In a perfect world, sure.
SupersonicMax said:
I have delivered lots of stuff in a day. All units can arrange for alternate delivery methods, i.e. FedEx/Purolator/Canada Post, hand carry, but your unit has to be willing to pay for it. YOu have to remember we live in a big honking country. If you are in Comox and need a part from Montreal, well that is going to take some time. That's just the limits of the size of our country
SupersonicMax said:
<caveat> I have no time with the RCAF <caveat>
If you have parts that are different depending on the side of the aircraft they are on then they should have different NSNs. Your tech have publications and programs that should tell them what NSNs to order, I have sent many a stoker back to his CFTOs and schematics to investigate the part they need. Ordering four of the same part, because you cant identify what you actually need, when you actually need one is only compounding the problem WRT lack of spare parts.
Its a huge issue on ships. Engineers are awful for keeping "bench stock" of even NS parts. When these should be returned to the repair lines to continue the parts life cycle and be available for issue to someone in need.
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Halifax Tar said:
The problem with this is, they have no requirement..... until they have a requirement. I've been pulled in to many taskings via CFTPO where all of sudden, I required kit that had sat in my basement for a few years. A great example of this was when I deployed to the Arctic twice on short notice. Thank god I had my initial issue Arctic Kit otherwise I would have been SOL because supply in Kingston had almost nothing.
I'm a big believer in soldier first, office/cubicle dweller second. How do you inculcate that culture when you don't even provide the necessary equipment for your personnel to live properly in an austere condition that they may have to go to from time to time? How do you promote a culture of high readiness when you don't even have equipment available for the force you do have?
It's actually exactly what we are talking about. When I say 'controlled' I'm obviously not talking about 'controlled goods' and I thought that was apparent. What I am talking about is what every single soldier should be issued the minute they sign up for service. A serviceable rucksack is a fundamental piece of military equipment. In fact, I would say as a logisitican it should be of critical importance to you. It's the most basic form of logistical equipment we have and it has proven decisive in many great military victories.
Dien Bien Phu:
64,000 Vietnamese Soldiers equipped with bags, boots, their hands and feet marched through the jungle carrying howitzers and guns on their shoulders decisively defeated the French Army who were equipped with tanks, 400+ aircraft, heavy howitzers, etc.
The Chinese Intervention during the Korean War:
200,000 Chinese Soldiers marched 460km in 19 days carrying only what they could move on foot and with pack mules. One particular Chinese Division averaged 29km per day during that advance, on foot. It's probably one of the greatest military logistical feet's of all time but we don't study it in the West unfortunately.
So yes, every person in the Army needs a rucksack and full fighting order, every single person also needs a half decent pair of boots and a proper uniform. We should also maintain an Op Stock to rapidly kit out our Units who would be able to rapidly mobilize to Battalion strength should the Balloon go up.
I'm not talking about expensive pieces of equipment, I'm talking about bags that cost a few hundred dollars. Considering we handed back $2.3 billion dollars this year, seems like it isn't necessarily a money problem.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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Plus a lot of that kit will last a long time if properly stored. I kept our stock of 51 pattern webbing, so when the SYEP came along we had something to issue them, of course once that program ended I was ordered to get rid of it, despite it saving our butt and lots' of money. We are terrible at getting rid of serviceable kit. We could certainly learn lessons from the Soviets about kit retention and storage.
Halifax Tar
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Humphrey Bogart said:The problem with this is, they have no requirement..... until they have a requirement. I've been pulled in to many taskings via CFTPO where all of sudden, I required kit that had sat in my basement for a few years. A great example of this was when I deployed to the Arctic twice on short notice. Thank god I had my initial issue Arctic Kit otherwise I would have been SOL because supply in Kingston had almost nothing.
I'm a big believer in soldier first, office/cubicle dweller second. How do you inculcate that culture when you don't even provide the necessary equipment for your personnel to live properly in an austere condition that they may have to go to from time to time? How do you promote a culture of high readiness when you don't even have equipment available for the force you do have?
It's actually exactly what we are talking about. When I say 'controlled' I'm obviously not talking about 'controlled goods' and I thought that was apparent. What I am talking about is what every single soldier should be issued the minute they sign up for service. A serviceable rucksack is a fundamental piece of military equipment. In fact, I would say as a logisitican it should be of critical importance to you. It's the most basic form of logistical equipment we have and it has proven decisive in many great military victories.
Dien Bien Phu:
64,000 Vietnamese Soldiers equipped with bags, boots, their hands and feet marched through the jungle carrying howitzers and guns on their shoulders decisively defeated the French Army who were equipped with tanks, 400+ aircraft, heavy howitzers, etc.
The Chinese Intervention during the Korean War:
200,000 Chinese Soldiers marched 460km in 19 days carrying only what they could move on foot and with pack mules. One particular Chinese Division averaged 29km per day during that advance, on foot. It's probably one of the greatest military logistical feet's of all time but we don't study it in the West unfortunately.
So yes, every person in the Army needs a rucksack and full fighting order, every single person also needs a half decent pair of boots and a proper uniform. We should also maintain an Op Stock to rapidly kit out our Units who would be able to rapidly mobilize to Battalion strength should the Balloon go up.
I'm not talking about expensive pieces of equipment, I'm talking about bags that cost a few hundred dollars. Considering we handed back $2.3 billion dollars this year, seems like it isn't necessarily a money problem.
1) If you need kit that you aren't normally entitled too on short notice, say like your arctic deployments, then I agree Clothing stores should have available stock. Why don't we ? What are our return process like ? What happens when a member looses one or "looses one" ? Why does the Army Sup Tech on HMCS ___________ require field kit ? Could that kit not be better used at your local clothing stores ?
2) Soldier first is a fallacy outside the Army. You can argue with me until you're blue in the face about this but I am not budging. Trust me, I have operational time in both the RCN and CA and only one of those required any sort of soldier skills for me to complete my job. And then when I did need those skills the CA spent countless months having me hold down a.... I mean training me.
3) I agree with you. We should have the kit on the shelf to kit the sailors/soldier/air folks out. Question, why wasn't DRMIS portal utilized; and a report run looking for all the people who do not fall under the Field Kit SOI yet have it issued ? This should have been the first step. Disseminate it through the CoCs and hold leadership responsible for the kit's return, then hold the members financially responsible for kit the signed for that isn't there.
4) Field kit has a limited critical importance too me. I am employed at a Navy unit, and probably will be for the rest of my career. My Army days are very likely over, sadly. Succession planning and all that jazz, you know.
If you don't have an entitlement to the kit; or you did at one time and that has changed then you must return that kit.
Go to you local Army Navy store and look at all the serviceable kit that is on those shelves ? Why is that ? Go on Kijiji or Ebay have another look. Why is that serviceable kit there ? My trade has a fault to play in this as well. Why are we not enforcing policy that is very clearly laid out ? Why are we clearing people out of units without having them return kit ? Why are we sending serviceable kit to the scrap bin ? That's a whole other discussion about my trade and what has happened too it in the last 20 or so years.
Again I don't really disagree with you, I simply think the first step should be find out who has this stuff with no entitlement too it and make those returns happen first.
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Halifax Tar said:
You and I are in violent agreement on the bit in yellow. Part of the problem this Military has is the fallacy of the joint force which I believe complicates decision-making. What's good for the Navy isn't necessarily good for the Army or Air Force and vice-versa.
I actually looked at the recall message and laughed when I saw FDU(P) and FDU(A) as the only two Navy units authorized to keep the Rucksack. I thought to myself, why the heck are they even using that rucksack and is it even suitable for what they do?
This comes to my next point. If we were a proper Army or Military, we would have a climate controlled warehouse in Longue-Pointe with 200,000 of these bags and other assorted individual kit just sitting there waiting to be issued. We aren't talking about a tank or a plane here, although a proper Military has hundreds of those also just sitting in storage. What kind of a person orders a hiking bag and expects it to last for 30 years without ever needing to be replaced? Oh and lets not even order enough to give to the people we do have.
Good thing the Army doesn't use the Load Bearing March as it's Battle Fitness Standard anymore otherwise we would be pooched, although you are still supposed to complete one if you have to deploy as part of your IBTS, I'm sure we will just sign a waiver though
I don't blame your trade or any of the people in uniform at all. You are just the ones responsible for having to administer and manage a fundamentally flawed system. In fact, I think our Logistics personnel at the Tactical Level do Yeoman's Work with the soup sandwich they've been given.
Halifax Tar
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Humphrey Bogart said:
I think Joint is ok, we all need to work together, but IMHO this is a direct ramification of the unification and integration that took place in the 60s and early 70s. We tried to force 3 very different Supply services to all work in the same method, while giving small nuances, and then never giving our people the opportunity to actually learn that field to a higher degree because "Supply has to have experience in more than one environment".
Full discretion, I am the Snr Storesman (RQ for you Army types) at FDU(A). Ya about those rucks. They are entitled to them off of the EOD Operator SOI, and that is a very recent development that that SOI was amended to include all CDs posted to a FDU. It spawned out of a Snr NCM CD having a temper tantrum over not being entitled to the new ruck sack, so he got his whole trade added to the EOD Operator SOI which still only has the old ruck. He did that in about 5 mins via an email to another Snr NCM CD who runs that SOI, and *poof* entitlement exists.
Anyways, enough on that. I have to stop before I get myself in trouble lol.
Humphrey Bogart said:This comes to my next point. If we were a proper Army or Military, we would have a climate controlled warehouse in Longue-Pointe with 200,000 of these bags and other assorted individual kit just sitting there waiting to be issued. We aren't talking about a tank or a plane here, although a proper Military has hundreds of those also just sitting in storage. What kind of a person orders a hiking bag and expects it to last for 30 years without ever needing to be replaced? Oh and lets not even order enough to give to the people we do have.
Good thing the Army doesn't use the Load Bearing March as it's Battle Fitness Standard anymore otherwise we would be pooched, although you are still supposed to complete one if you have to deploy as part of your IBTS, I'm sure we will just sign a waiver though
No disagreement from me.
Humphrey Bogart said:
I do blame my trade partially. I have been that LS/Cpl at the counter at clothing, getting berated by a Sgt because he doesn't want to return his kit. Then he disappears into my Sgts office and *poof* he can keep his kit or perhaps no need for an MLR. "LS Make it happen". I can't tell you how many times I have seen stuff like that happen.
I recently took some MLRs to the BOR that my CO had ordered to have funds recovered. Not a clerk in that OR had any idea how to do this because it hadn't been done in forever. We have not been holding people accountable for their kit for a very long time.
In Mar of this year I had an LCMM and Supply Manager try to shanghai my Cpl and have him find out all of their outstand requisitions. Yup the LCMM and SM couldn't even find out what they had outstanding to action.
We have some, not all, extremely weak leadership in Supply and Log as a whole. I have my opinions as to why and they aren't nice. But that's for the Sgts/WOs mess while having a smoke and a cold one.
