"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[chrisf]

One additional thing that really amazed me, you could buy rifle magazines, remember all those times on training courses spent looking for a lost rifle magazine, remember the MP reports, difficulty dealing with stores, this could all be alleviated by having the candidate go down and buy another one on his own dime.

On the other hand, all that time on your belly crawing along looking for a lost mag gives you plenty of time to think about why you lost the mag, and how not to loose it again...

 

[OldSolduer]

On the other hand, all that time on your belly crawing along looking for a lost mag gives you plenty of time to think about why you lost the mag, and how not to loose it again...

Agreed. PLUS a 30 round magazine is prohibited for possession by a civilian. So look for your mags and stop complaining. Besides as a future leader, you expect orders to be obeyed, not just the ones they like,,,,but the ones they don't like.
No one likes looking for a 30 rd mag. But you have to.....that is an order.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

So much to say here - yes the US PX-style clothing stores concept has been discussed throughout the last 1200+ posts in this very topic threa. (I am sure you read them all - right!).  The issue with much of the US kit is that it is not always the same quality and durability as ours.  Their clothing wears out in about 3-6 months.  The fact that they have 12 different models "approved for wear" means that there is no agreement on standards for quality or durability.  The Gucci sunglasses are generally not ballistic eyewear.  The reason for the complication of a lost magazine is obviously beyond your scope of experience - the loss of a controlled stores item needs to be investigated not replaced on your own time with your own dime at the PX or the corner store.

Instead of an unauthorized US poncho, why not buy some waterproof note pages or use a pencil.  Where the going gets tough you won't find many blue rockets to hide in while you write orders.  Perhaps you found a camouflage Harry Potter cloaking poncho at the US clothing stores.

Just the sort of response I expected

Firstly I will respond to the comment about the issue of kit, have you taken a look at some of the the stuff we are issued, case in point the combats, turn them inside out notice the poor sewing jobs done on the pants and the combat tunic, I have had to exchange my pants multiple times after they literally ripped at the seams due to poor production values.  I already pointed out part of the problem with the TacVest - C9 pouches being too small, Mag Pouches being on your upper chest as opposed to your waist, decreasing accessibility.  Or lets talk about the small pack being able to carry nothing more then a pillow as any weight in the bag causes the straps to loosen to the point where the bag is hanging below your buttocks.  Yes the kit we get is wonderful and totally functional blah, blah, blah

On to the issue of what is available at the PX, I can assure you all the glasses there were ballistic, they had both Revision Sawfly (the current issue of CF Ballistic) and different models of Wiley X ballistic, all of these not only meet but  exceed the ANSI Z87.1-2003 High Velocity Impact Safety & Optical Standards which is what the US army uses to gauge effectiveness of ballistic eyewear, available was a number of different models of Wiley X as well as Revision Sawfly, there were also different models of Wiley X goggles and Revision Locusts.

As for the issue of quality, from what I have seen and felt some of the new US uniforms, the material is heavier then ours, and the tailoring seems to be to a higher standard, I have frequently had my combats rip on me or get caught in a tree or brush and simply fall apart, I don't see that as being the case with the American combats, due to the thicker material.

As for the Poncho, you know that ranger blanket that everyone loves so much, This is the thing that goes over it, pretty nice piece of kit, I know a bunch of guys that use them,  the reason I bought one was exactly for the reasons you bring up "Where the going gets tough you won't find many blue rockets to hide in while you write orders."

On my Phase 3 Infantry I didn't have a blue rocket to hide in and with the amount of water we had downpour on us waterproof paper and a pencil were not enough, it was so wet one exercise that waterproof pens weren't even getting the job done. 

Try taking that waterproof paper taking a jug of water and then dumping it on the paper and trying to write, not only will the pencil not work but even the waterproof paper will eventually deteriorate.  The few people that actually had the poncho had a lot easier go of it as they simply put the poncho over their heads and went to work, I and many others did not have that luxury.

Also if you combine the poncho with a small Coleman burner, they make sitting in a trench on defensive a little more comfortable

As for my comment about the magazine point taken, I understand the importance of investigating the loss of controlled stores, especially with strict firearms control laws that exist in Canada.  I was just dreaming of a day when I didn't have to spend every waking moment of my time looking for someone's lost magazine.

I obviously touched a nerve, sorry no hard feelings, I just get frustrated with the whole issued kit vs non-issued kit business.  I understand the importance of uniformity in a military organization but when uniformity plays a direct impact in what I see as diminished effectiveness and a trumping of common sense this is where I draw my line.

Mid Aged Silverback, Sig OP, Loachman, and Dissident  - Point taken

 

[OldSolduer]

Get ready to remain frustrated. Every army the world has ever seen complained about its kit. You as an OCdt, Lt or Capt can't change it.
Suggestions etc always welcomed, but more than likely your going to get told to STFU Lt!

 

[greentoblue]

I was going to post this story in Foreign Militaries but I think it would be more useful in this discussion.  As a useful contrast its interesting to note that the Brits are no happier with their kit than we are, and if this survey is to be believed, perhaps even less satisfied than the "average" Canadian soldier:

"Two out of three members of the Armed Forces believe they are not well equipped and just one in five believes morale is high, official research shows."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/7685601/Armed-forces-unhappy-over-kit-MoD-survey-finds.html

I wonder what a similiar survey in the CF would find?

 

[Gunner98]

I have numbered your concerns that I would like to respond in 'fatherly" sort of manner.

Just the sort of response I expected

1. I will respond to the comment about the issue of kit, have you taken a look at some of the the stuff we are issued, case in point the combats, turn them inside out notice the poor sewing jobs done on the pants and the combat tunic, I have had to exchange my pants multiple times after they literally ripped at the seams due to poor production values. 

2.  Or lets talk about the small pack being able to carry nothing more then a pillow as any weight in the bag causes the straps to loosen to the point where the bag is hanging below your buttocks.  Yes the kit we get is wonderful and totally functional blah, blah, blah

3.  As for the issue of quality, from what I have seen and felt some of the new US uniforms, the material is heavier then ours, and the tailoring seems to be to a higher standard, I have frequently had my combats rip on me or get caught in a tree or brush and simply fall apart, I don't see that as being the case with the American combats, due to the thicker material.

4.  As for the Poncho, you know that ranger blanket that everyone loves so much, This is the thing that goes over it, pretty nice piece of kit, I know a bunch of guys that use them,  the reason I bought one was exactly for the reasons you bring up "Where the going gets tough you won't find many blue rockets to hide in while you write orders."

5.  Try taking that waterproof paper taking a jug of water and then dumping it on the paper and trying to write, not only will the pencil not work but even the waterproof paper will eventually deteriorate.  The few people that actually had the poncho had a lot easier go of it as they simply put the poncho over their heads and went to work, I and many others did not have that luxury.

6.  I understand the importance of uniformity in a military organization but when uniformity plays a direct impact in what I see as diminished effectiveness and a trumping of common sense this is where I draw my line. 

Your responses were no surprise to me either - puppy meet dinosaur.  Hello puppy!

1. Yes I have looked at and worn the kit for the last 27 years.  It has improved a lot during that time. ;D

2.  Perhaps you are not wearing it correctly or have forgotten to tighten the waist belt.  I have done a few BFT work-up sessions with all essential kit in it and have had no issues. :nod:

3.  You must have a magic touch (or were a tailor in your teen years) because the dozens of US soldiers I served with over the last 10 years would differ with your tactile conclusion.  It is not all that it seems.

4.  Thanks for educating me - I wasn’t sure – I always wondered when I could find a cover for the camo blanket I purchased in 1987. :

5.  Snivel kit seems like a luxury but it only keeps you weak.  Live, adapt, overcome your environment or it will always beat you.  Once a different set of DS or your post-course chain of command takes away your poncho because it is not authorized what will you do then.  Snivel I bet!  :'(

6.  If that is all it takes for you to draw the line, you have a short and uncomfortable career ahead of you. 

 

[HItorMiss]

5.  Snivel kit seems like a luxury but it only keeps you weak.  Live, adapt, overcome your environment or it will always beat you.  Once a different set of DS or your post-course chain of command takes away your poncho because it is not authorized what will you do then.  Snivel I bet!  :'(

Are you serious? No really is that your personal no crap opinion?

 

[Kat Stevens]

Yeah, pussy soldiers these days... rifles, helmets, body armour.  In my day we got buck nekkid, painted ourselves with woad, and went charging into battle with nothing but a sword and a smile, same for the women.


Oh, and whiskey.  Loooots of whiskey

 

[rifleman]

Back in the day if you had nothing they would take that away too.

 

[HItorMiss]

I find his statement remarkable coming from a Major....  :

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Lol dude the ranger blanket comment was a joke, sorry I am still pretty bad at this whole internet sarcasm/smartass gig but you seem to have it down to a science

With that being said I would like to sincerely thank you for your "fatherly" opinion, especially in regards to my perceived sniveling, I'm glad you know me so well  :

 

[Burrows]

Simmer.


Milnet.ca Staff

 

[OldSolduer]

Lol dude the ranger blanket comment was a joke, sorry I am still pretty bad at this whole internet sarcasm/smartass gig but you seem to have it down to a science

With that being said I would like to sincerely thank you for your "fatherly" opinion, especially in regards to my perceived sniveling, I'm glad you know me so well  :

Words of advice Stymiest: Stop trying so hard to fit in.  Your making an a$$ out of yourself.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

If only some would spend as much time figuring out how to rapidly defeat the Taliban as they would debating the utility of issue vs non-issue kit

I love the army, there are a lot of good things happening but there are some dinosaurs that need to disappear.

I was down in Fort Drum just last weekend, looking to buy a poncho so I don't have to try and fight someone for a blue rocket to write orders in and was amazed at the way the Americans procure kit.

The Bad = Americans buy all their own kit, everything from underwear, socks, combats, to pouches for there LB Vests

The Good = Because they are buying all their own gear the selection available is phenomenal.  They have 10 different pairs of ballistic eyewear which are DOD approved, as for boots, they had 12 different models approved for wear, as for gloves at least a dozen different types.  The Utility pouches could actually fit a belt of C9 ammo into them, under armour socks available for $5.95, they cost $30 dollars at sport check here.

Best of all the staff at both the quartermasters store and clothing were incredibly friendly and helpful, it was incredibly refreshing to get service like that and definitely a change from what I am accustomed too (Yah I will probably get a lot of flak for saying this but its the truth).

Yes, having to buy your own kit is a little bit of a pain in the rear but if done right, such as the way the Americans do it, I think it would alleviate many of the problems we currently experience with our supply system.

I would more then welcome buying my own gear if it meant I got everything for a reasonable price, I didn't have to deal with miserable people who seem to hate their job, and I got a wide ranging varied selection.  I also believe personnel would take a larger interest in maintaining and looking after their kit as it was bought on their own dime, and it is in their interest to look after it.


One additional thing that really amazed me, you could buy rifle magazines, remember all those times on training courses spent looking for a lost rifle magazine, remember the MP reports, difficulty dealing with stores, this could all be alleviated by having the candidate go down and buy another one on his own dime.

You're mistaken in regard to how the US supply system works.  Having been in both the CFs and US Marine Corps I can tell you this for a fact.

There are generally two different types of personal issue equipment and clothing:
1.  Initial Issue uniforms such as the US equivalent to DEU, as well as combats and PT uniforms, including footwear.  These are issued to a recruit/officer candidate when they first join the service.  Servicemembers are given an annual uniform upkeep allowance which is supposed to cover the cost of items as they wear out and become unserviceable.  Hence why the US military clothing stores carry such a large stock of uniform items.  There are some US units which will allow one-for-one exchanges of clothing and uniform items as they wear out, but they are more the exemption than the rule.

2.  Organizational Equipment.  This is all the stuff like webbing, helmets, body armour, rucksacks, mag pouches, sleeping bags, etc.  It is controlled at the unit level and issued to new members joining the unit, and is turned in when that member leaves the unit.  With this stuff wears out/breaks the servicemember turns it into the unit supply section and receives a one for one replacement.  The main reason as to why the US military clothing stores at the PX sells this type of stuff is for people who've lost their issued stuff and need to replace it with the cost borne out of their own pocket. 

So much to say here - yes the US PX-style clothing stores concept has been discussed throughout the last 1200+ posts in this very topic threa. (I am sure you read them all - right!).  The issue with much of the US kit is that it is not always the same quality and durability as ours.  Their clothing wears out in about 3-6 months.  The fact that they have 12 different models "approved for wear" means that there is no agreement on standards for quality or durability.  The Gucci sunglasses are generally not ballistic eyewear.  The reason for the complication of a lost magazine is obviously beyond your scope of experience - the loss of a controlled stores item needs to be investigated not replaced on your own time with your own dime at the PX or the corner store.

Instead of an unauthorized US poncho, why not buy some waterproof note pages or use a pencil.  Where the going gets tough you won't find many blue rockets to hide in while you write orders.  Perhaps you found a camouflage Harry Potter cloaking poncho at the US clothing stores.

In regard to your comment about there being 'no standards' for US Ballistic Eyewear, you are wrong about that.  The US Army and Marine Corps have done testing and have an authorized list of models which units or individuals may purchase:  https://peosoldier.army.mil/pmseq/eyewear.asp
The reason the US military has done this, is because no one manufacturer has enough capacity to supply the needs of the entire military.  Also, the time it would take to develop a government owned design and contract it is not as fast as buying commercial off the shelf.  What they've done is said to industry is "Here is the benchmark standard of protection you must provide.  If you can meet that standard, then we'll authorize that model for purchase."

With respect to boots, the US Army is a lot more liberal than the Marine Corps in terms of what boots meet uniform regulation standards.  The US Army dress regulations has a pretty broad set of characteristics that a boot must possess and ultimately it's up to the unit commander to decide what is ok or not.  The Marine Corps has a section within it's uniform procurement office which is responsible for authorizing various aftermarket items, ranging from dress shirts to cap badges to combat boots.  Once an item is deemed acceptable, it is given a type approval serial number which must be on a label on that item.  With the boot issue, the US long ago decided that rather than do this epic search for the 'one boot' they decided that it was alot easier to let the troops decide what works for them, and with the size of the US military market as it is, US footwear manufacturers have realized that it can be profitable to step up and provide a superior product using the Darwinian principles of free market economy.

In regard to the quality of US issued equipment vs. Canadian, I've seen excellent and shoddy workmanship both sides of the border, so you've got to be careful in terms of how broad a brush you paint with. 

 

[KevinB]

Instead of an unauthorized US poncho, why not buy some waterproof note pages or use a pencil.  Where the going gets tough you won't find many blue rockets to hide in while you write orders.  Perhaps you found a camouflage Harry Potter cloaking poncho at the US clothing stores.

The one comment that jumps out at me specifically, is that fact that the above is not from a Infantry perspective, as not only will the poncho cover the ranger blanket, it will also help reduce light spillage when writing your orders.


Smart Ass comments do nothing especially when one does not have the background to appreciate the rationale.

 

[Gunner98]

The one comment that jumps out at me specifically, is that fact that the above is not from a Infantry perspective, as not only will the poncho cover the ranger blanket, it will also help reduce light spillage when writing your orders.

Smart Ass comments do nothing especially when one does not have the background to appreciate the rationale.

Sorry to disappoint if the smart ass comment reference was aimed me I-6. I had 14 years in the Artillery, three of which were spent in Germany while the wall was coming down.  I hope that counts.  Six of my years were also spent at Arty Sch and RCA Battle School watching young officers pretending to be ninjas with ponchos that DS quickly nixed.  Since the original poster is heading off to DP1.2 (or so his profile asserts), I was suggesting that the snivel kit may not be the best replacement for hiding in a Blue Rocket to write orders while on course. Perhaps he should wait until he reaches a unit and learns the unit dress standards.

Since the standard at most (if not all) Army (and training) Bases is the DND ballistic glasses only, having Gucci US authorized glasses seems unnecessary again until one leaves Canadian airspace.

I will go back on radio silence (or perhaps to my blue rocket office) as I am unworthy of trying to bring anything to a thread with 1200 posts that restates the same complaints and solutions over and over again, albeit by newer folks who have not taken the time to read a little history. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

I was going to post this story in Foreign Militaries but I think it would be more useful in this discussion.  As a useful contrast its interesting to note that the Brits are no happier with their kit than we are, and if this survey is to be believed, perhaps even less satisfied than the "average" Canadian soldier:

"Two out of three members of the Armed Forces believe they are not well equipped and just one in five believes morale is high, official research shows."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/7685601/Armed-forces-unhappy-over-kit-MoD-survey-finds.html

I wonder what a similiar survey in the CF would find?

Fond memories of British soldiers/marines complaining about their kit e.g.,:


"These puttees are too long, I've had to cut them in half so I can put them on faster"

"This bergen [rucksack, SAS] is wank, I'm off to Cotswold Camping to get me a Berghaus Roc"

"This bleedin' KF shirt is a scratchy nightmare... luckily I picked up some Norgie shirts on my last trip to Silverman's"

"The Yanks get issued roll mats. I'm off to the shops to buy one"

"I'm off to NI next month, better get down to Arktis to pick up a chest rig"

"They're not issued by Pusser, so I had to half inch a set of yaffling spanners from the galley"


I hate to sound like I've just stepped out of the 5th Legion ca. AD 1, but the kit the British have now is such an amazing improvement over what they had even 15 years ago I can't even imagine why anyone could complain about it... unless you happen to be a Gex X/Y/Nexter of course! Oh, kind of like our kit too I guess... :

 

[Timmy!]

I hate to sound like I've just stepped out of the 5th Legion ca. AD 1, but the kit the British have now is such an amazing improvement over what they had even 15 years ago I can't even imagine why anyone could complain about it... unless you happen to be a Gex X/Y/Nexter of course! Oh, kind of like our kit too I guess... :

I second that, even if I'm the Generation X era. I honestly love the British DPM stuff. CADPAT hurts my eyes...  ;D

 

[dapaterson]

A new CANLANDGEN has been published detailing over its six pages and 30 paragraphs numerous items that have been or are in the process of being procured and updated to better serve soldiers (and those serving on land-centric operations).

There is no classification indicated on the message, however, to err on the side of caustion, I will not post it here.  Those interested can find it on the DWAN.  Go to the Army homepage, select "CLS" from the right-hand menu, then look for CANLANDGEN 20/10, titled "APRIL 2010 UPDATE ON OP CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT ACQUISITION".


(The title says April, the message date is Mya, and that it's been released in June...)

 

[McG]

On to the issue of what is available at the PX, I can assure you all the glasses there were ballistic, they had both Revision Sawfly (the current issue of CF Ballistic) and different models of Wiley X ballistic, all of these not only meet but  exceed the ANSI Z87.1-2003 High Velocity Impact Safety & Optical Standards which is what the US army uses to gauge effectiveness of ballistic eyewear, available was a number of different models of Wiley X as well as Revision Sawfly, there were also different models of Wiley X goggles and Revision Locusts.

There are serious flaws in the US standards and a lot of the eyewear on the shelves in the PX would fail catostrophically when tested by Canada. Don't buy your own PPE.