Troops carrying pistols outside the gate

[Big Red]

On my tour ALL trades had both a BHP Mk III pistol, F88SA1C carbine and frags too. Generically speaking. Spl wpns such as M79, M203, Para Minimi etc were issued as required.

Yes, the clerk had a pistol as did the CSM, as did us all. We were part of a Combat Team, with 3RAR (Para) the mainstay, follwed by RAAC, and the rrest of us. We are all soldiers first and tradesmen second.

Ya, and we had to submit justification to keep them as after Jake Kovco shot himself in the head with his, a few months earlier (google jake kovco for yourselves). Seems the folk back in Canberra were about to place a pistol ban on us in theatre, claiming we did not need them.

The only time I did not carry my pistol was when I slept, and when I showered. It was glued to me

Yes I agree with Kev on this one too.

Cheers,

Wes

I actually overhead a conversation between several Aussie officers at the Victory Cinnabon a few months ago. One officer with a put on Etonian/Aussie accent was commenting on how logistics could be greatly streamlined if they just removed the pistols from those who "don't need them" such as the troops. Think of all the ammunition paperwork that could be saved if you didn't have to requalify the peons on their weapons if you just took their weapons away. Of course he needed a handgun because walking around with a Steyr would be terribly inconvenient.

I had to bite my tongue as the whole discussion showed how out of touch some leadership is with the situation on the ground.

 

[OldSolduer]

Do you notice after every ND with a pistol, there is a knee jerk reaction to pull the pistols. No one ever checks the qualifications to see if the troop should have had one in the first place. A thorough investigation should be conducted to ascertain if the troop was qualified. I f he wans't, who should be charged? Section Comd? Pl Comd? OC?
There is a rush to charge the individual, pronounce him guilty and carry on.

 

[Greymatters]

Do you notice after every ND with a pistol, there is a knee jerk reaction to pull the pistols. No one ever checks the qualifications to see if the troop should have had one in the first place. A thorough investigation should be conducted to ascertain if the troop was qualified. I f he wans't, who should be charged? Section Comd? Pl Comd? OC?
There is a rush to charge the individual, pronounce him guilty and carry on. 

Why are there so many NDs with pistols?  Do they have a habit of walking around with a pistol that has a round already chambered? I can see this outside the wire, but not the smartest of moves when you are inside the camp...

 

[OldSolduer]

Reason for NDs? Lack of training, pure and simple. Who is to blame for that?
I've heard if you are "inside the wire" the weapons can be loaded but not readied. Is this the case?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I think it may have something to do with 1. having to put the mag back in the housing to fire off the action and 2. people horsing around.

Weapons are not to be loaded in KAF until you leave the front gate.

 

[OldSolduer]

OK that is good....so either the individual has forgotten their training OR.....they were never properly trained in the first place.

I don't know if anyone remembers Ed Witt, former RSM 1CMBG. He gave a MCpl the goods one day because the MCpl didn't know how to strip and assemble a .32 cal (7.65 mm if memory serves me correctly) pistol that at one time was issued to Generals.
RSM Witt stated that it was a weapon of war and the MCpl should learn how to use it.....in not so genteel terms.

 

[riggermade]

Oh the memories of Uncle Eddie, that could be a whole thread on it's own

 

[1feral1]

I actually overhead a conversation between several Aussie officers at the Victory Cinnabon a few months ago. One officer with a put on Etonian/Aussie accent was commenting on how logistics could be greatly streamlined if they just removed the pistols from those who "don't need them" such as the troops. Think of all the ammunition paperwork that could be saved if you didn't have to requalify the peons on their weapons if you just took their weapons away. Of course he needed a handgun because walking around with a Steyr would be terribly inconvenient.

I had to bite my tongue as the whole discussion showed how out of touch some leadership is with the situation on the ground.

Ah, that Cinnabon, between the PX and Bazaar complex. Been there the odd occasion  ;D.

Sure figures the JTF633 staff weenies would be there discussing crap like that, making decisions which they don't have a clue about.

Reminds me of an incident between a 633 Knob and our OC. We had demanded thru the system some polar fleece jackets and some  G-Shock watches. Needless to say 633 shot that down. The irony of it all was the staff weenies who never left their thrones in the pallace, where it was always heated etc (they even had a HEATED pool at Australia Island), well they had the polar fleece and the watches. We were out and about in our LAVs etc, on missions, where such demands were justified, and we got nothing. That goes to show you the mentality of some 'bean counters', and how little touch they have with those at the coalface. Idiots is too good of a word!  >

We were disgusted beyond a joke. Ya, there was our OC (damn good bloke) arguing with another MAJ about kit the lads could not have, yet openly wore his, when he did not even need it. The OC was furious!

As for Old Soldeur's mentality WRT pistol, etc. Its time to come out of the dark ages, regardless of what things were like in your day? I've been in the system since 1976, not that means anything.

As for pistol training, we did T'sOET weekly on both systems, and those issues with spl wpns did the T'sOET on them too. Lack of training for us was never an issue. Shot every Wed at the Memorial Range, near the 14th July Bridge. Ammo was never an issue.

Jake Kovco's UD was probably suicide.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[daftandbarmy]

Lessons learned from OIF: "The Infantry want more pistols". One or two per section seems reasonable to me.

http://www.strategypage.com/iraqlessonslearned/iraqwarlessonslearned.asp

May 14, 2003: In Iraq, there was a lot of infantry fighting, and reports are coming back about the performance of various infantry weapons. The 5.56mm round used by most coalition infantry rifles had no trouble knocking down enemy troops, especially if they were hit in the head or chest. Hits in arms and legs were less likely to stop the bad guys, but this has always been the case with infantry rifles. Some troops asked for the heavier, 77 grain, 5.56mm bullet, rather than the current 62 grain bullet in the NATO standard SS-109 5.56mm round. Debate over adopting the 77 grain bullet has been going on for some time. Some Special Forces troops are thought to have been obtaining 5.56mm ammo with 77 grain bullets for their M-4 rifles and using it in Afghan and Iraqi operations. The heavier bullet is supposed to be more likely to knock down men it hits.

In Iraq, the average range of engagement for infantry was under a hundred meters, more often 20-30 meters. Even the snipers rarely took a shot farther than 300 meters. A lot of thing fighting was in urban areas, where the Iraqis preferred to stand and fight. This raised two more issues. The infantry want more pistols. There were many situations in buildings where a pistol was a better weapon than a rifle. Also, more pistols in the infantry (at least one or two per squad), provided back up weapons when rifles or machine-guns broke down. It was also noted that many of the 5.56mm M249 squad machine-guns, first introduced in the early 1980s, were wearing out. The M249s got a work out in Iraq and many literally fell apart, especially among the Marines. But the Marines were also quite happy with their new 7.62mm M240 machine-guns, which they had just received to replace their ancient M-60s. The army had adopted the M240 years ago and both services use the M240 on vehicles and as a "medium machine-gun" in infantry units. The heavier bullet of the M240 came in handy in city fighting, where you often wanted to shoot through doors and some walls.

Support troops, and crews of armored vehicles, wanted a small weapon than the M-16, and many mentioned the M-4 (an M-16 with a shorter barrel, 33.3 inches long overall). But even infantry complained about the length of the M-16 (40.3 inches) when operating in cramped urban environments. Some troops used captured AK-47s (34.5 inches long) for city fighting.

The 9mm pistols continued to have problems. The big one was weak springs in the magazines, which tended to cause failure to fire, and the tendency of bullets to fall out of magazines not loaded.

 

[Greymatters]

Lessons learned from OIF: "The Infantry want more pistols". One or two per section seems reasonable to me.

http://www.strategypage.com/iraqlessonslearned/iraqwarlessonslearned.asp

May 14, 2003: In Iraq, there was a lot of infantry fighting, and reports are coming back about the performance of various infantry weapons. The 5.56mm round used by most coalition infantry rifles had no trouble knocking down enemy troops, especially if they were hit in the head or chest. Hits in arms and legs were less likely to stop the bad guys, but this has always been the case with infantry rifles. Some troops asked for the heavier, 77 grain, 5.56mm bullet, rather than the current 62 grain bullet in the NATO standard SS-109 5.56mm round. Debate over adopting the 77 grain bullet has been going on for some time. Some Special Forces troops are thought to have been obtaining 5.56mm ammo with 77 grain bullets for their M-4 rifles and using it in Afghan and Iraqi operations. The heavier bullet is supposed to be more likely to knock down men it hits.

In Iraq, the average range of engagement for infantry was under a hundred meters, more often 20-30 meters. Even the snipers rarely took a shot farther than 300 meters. A lot of thing fighting was in urban areas, where the Iraqis preferred to stand and fight. This raised two more issues. The infantry want more pistols. There were many situations in buildings where a pistol was a better weapon than a rifle. Also, more pistols in the infantry (at least one or two per squad), provided back up weapons when rifles or machine-guns broke down. It was also noted that many of the 5.56mm M249 squad machine-guns, first introduced in the early 1980s, were wearing out. The M249s got a work out in Iraq and many literally fell apart, especially among the Marines. But the Marines were also quite happy with their new 7.62mm M240 machine-guns, which they had just received to replace their ancient M-60s. The army had adopted the M240 years ago and both services use the M240 on vehicles and as a "medium machine-gun" in infantry units. The heavier bullet of the M240 came in handy in city fighting, where you often wanted to shoot through doors and some walls.

Support troops, and crews of armored vehicles, wanted a small weapon than the M-16, and many mentioned the M-4 (an M-16 with a shorter barrel, 33.3 inches long overall). But even infantry complained about the length of the M-16 (40.3 inches) when operating in cramped urban environments. Some troops used captured AK-47s (34.5 inches long) for city fighting.

The 9mm pistols continued to have problems. The big one was weak springs in the magazines, which tended to cause failure to fire, and the tendency of bullets to fall out of magazines not loaded.

A mentor pointed out to me that basically what was happening was leaving pistol mags fully packed all the time wore out the mag springs.  The way he suggested to deal with mag spring issues was to have at least three magazines, load two and leave the third empty, and each day rotate the mags so that the spring in the unused mag had a chance to 'recover'.  Time consuming, but it worked.

 

[KevinB]

Your mentor is wrong -- static compression pressure on the spring does relatively nothing -- it is the compression and release cycles that wear the spring out.

They dont recover -- its not like a body taking an off day.  Springs and the whole magazine are a consumable item.

 

[COBRA-6]

I've heard the same thing about how leaving mags loaded will weaken the spring and cause malfunctions from DLR reps, it's WRONG! Springs do not weaken from being under tension, they weaken by either exceeding their elastic deformation limits or by repeated cycling...  :

 

[Journeyman]

I unload all my magazines, multiple times, at least once per week....."re-stressing them" with both ball and frange.  ;D

As Kev said, they're consumables -- get new ones.

 

[COBRA-6]

I unload all my magazines, multiple times, at least once per week....."re-stressing them" with both ball and frange.   ;D

Into the air or into the hesco?  ;D

 

[Greymatters]

Your mentor is wrong -- static compression pressure on the spring does relatively nothing -- it is the compression and release cycles that wear the spring out. 

I'll let him know if I ever see him again... but I've heard the same comment from others before - is this a myth that is heard quite often?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I've heard it too from different people as well.

 

[Big Red]

The myth is so widespread it was even countered by an article in American Handgunner (?) a few years ago.

 

[Good2Golf]

All the more reason to drop the 30-yr old Inglis mag on the ground during engagement after emptying them, rather than filling your drop bag with them (not that some staff wanks would even know what a drop bag was  )  RQ would then top you up with fresh mags.

G2G

p.s.  the mouth of the mag gets frigged up to with all the in, out, clear, in, out, clear......don't know how many times I had to re-tune the mag's mouth with my Gerber to re-establish decent feed characteristics.  Lucky I-6 was able to draw upon his gun plumbing past and give me tips and pointers on how to keep the puppies in good shape (well that and to have entertainment during TGITFWTAWP)

 

[mudgunner49]

All the more reason to drop the 30-yr old Inglis mag on the ground during engagement after emptying them, rather than filling your drop bag with them (not that some staff wanks would even know what a drop bag was  )  RQ would then top you up with fresh mags.

G2G

p.s.  the mouth of the mag gets frigged up to with all the in, out, clear, in, out, clear......don't know how many times I had to re-tune the mag's mouth with my Gerber to re-establish decent feed characteristics.  Lucky I-6 was able to draw upon his gun plumbing past and give me tips and pointers on how to keep the puppies in good shape (well that and to have entertainment during TGITFWTAWP)

G2G - the myth WRT springs is totally fallacious (sp?) and there is actually a very technical article on the Wolff Gun Springs website if you care to look it up.

In my own experience, in 1996 I personally fired 5 1911 mags that had been loaded since 1947 when my Dad's oldest brother mustered out of the USN (taking his 1911, belt, holster and 2 double mag pouches with him).  The pistol was a Remington-Rand 1911A1, the ammo was Rem-UMC steel-cased ball and it all fired and functioned without a hitch.  I have left mags for some of my pistols loaded for more than a year (misplaced in the safe or ammo locker) and never had a function issue.

As per Kevin, mags are a wear item and need to be replaced periodically.  Good quality Browning mags are $15-20 apiece and last for a goodly amount of time.  I use MecGar in mine and get them from Brownell's for $16 each, dealer cost.  They are an investment in security.  FWIW, I shot the pistol PWT in Pet in December and was the only one on the line with my own mags, and (coincidentally???) the only one on the line who missed the opportunity to practice my malfunction clearance drills... 8)

Re-engineering pistol mags avec Gerber is a ractice to be avoided if at all possible.  It has the potential to "not end well"...


blake

 

[Good2Golf]

Blake, yeah...next time, I'll perhaps mirror the practice of own mags.  I'm sure our BHP mags are as old as the pistols.  BTW, I'm assuming that was known to you only and the RSO didn't have the opportunity to flip out on you? 

G2G