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U.S. Basic Training compared to CAF

This seems to be the follow-on to the discussion above.

https://www.stripes.com/news/soldiers-to-shoot-more-stay-longer-in-infantry-school-1.534745
Soldiers to shoot more, stay longer in infantry school

By JOHN VANDIVER | STARS AND STRIPES  Published: June 26, 2018

The Army will add two more months to infantry school, marking the biggest change to the institution in nearly a half-century in a move the service says is designed to develop a more lethal force.

In July, the Army will extend its one-station unit training from 14 to 22 weeks in a pilot program, so that new recruits will get more weapons and combat training, said Col. Townley R. Hedrick, the commandant of the Army Infantry School, told the Army’s internal news service on Monday.

Between July and October of 2019 the expanded course will be introduced throughout the infantry school, the Army said.

The decision to reform the Army’s training of infantry soldiers came after Defense Secretary Jim Mattis emphasized the need for a more combat-ready ground force.  Soldiers will train more with their M4 rifle, the M240 machine gun and the M249 squad automatic weapon, Hedrick said in a statement.

“So across all the infantry weapons, they will get more bullets,” he said. “And they will also shoot more at night, rather than just doing a day familiarization fire.”

For 44 years, infantry school has been a 14-week program that dedicates 10 weeks to basic military training and four weeks to developing special infantry skills. Under the new program, soldiers will receive more field training experience to help them understand how to better maneuver as a squad and conduct day and nighttime operations, the Army said.

An individual day and night land navigation course has been added, which is expected to improve the “mental and physical toughness of soldiers,” Hedrick said.

Also, vehicle training has been extended from one day to a full week to ensure troops can handle their designated combat vehicle, whether it’s a Stryker or a Bradley.

More intensive specialty school training could also soon be on the way for the Army’s armor and engineer schools, which are conducting internal reviews on how to expand initial training, the Army said.
 
Ancient historical perspective when I did basic in 1972 it was 8 weeks long followed by AIT at Ft Polk was another 8 weeks.Women then had their own basic.It was the tail end of the draftee Army and certainly training people who didn't want to be in the Army was hard.Now its an all volunteer force and we shouldn't have to extend the length of training,unless we have to teach the pc art of soldiering.
 
Old Sweat said:
I have been quietly steaming here, recalling what the CF did to itself in trying to create a common basic recruit course starting in the late 60s. The first version was only six weeks or so long, and based on eliminating material that was not applicable to all three (or at least two) former services did not include weapons training and replaced combat first aid with the St John's Ambulance course. The rationale for this was that we were never going to fight again, so the greatest likelihood of injury was in an industrial setting, so teach civilian first aid.

Over time it added a week or two, and after the FLQ Crisis, the rifle returned. Still, there was very little in the nature of field craft and basic tactics. In time it improved, but the official CF position was that FMC should have its own programme to teach army stuff. It was all very logical and briefed well for the little green people who were running the individual training system. 

The basic officer course paralleled this philosophy, and all sorts of people seemed to have held their collective nose over the whole thing to conform to the spirit of unification and the elimination of unnecessary training.

Discussions on the utility of this could be counted upon to liven up happy hours.

In time it got fixed, but it was a frustrating mess for more than a few years. It was so screwed up, that hopefully it could never be replicated, or could it?


There was some logic in the 1960s proposals ... I think even you and I might agree that our basic training (25ish weeks, as I recall, followed by basic (Group 1) infantry or artillery or signals, etc) skills traiing which could be another 25ish weeks for some skills) was expensive and, arguably, amounted to 'over-training.' We were, I think you will agree, the best trained soldiers in the West: better than our British confreres and massively superior in every single respect to the US Army. I think the same could be said for the Navy and the RCAF.

The notion was explained, at a Mess lunch table as I recall, of a common to all, short (eight week) recruit phase after which sailor, soldiers and airmen would all go their separate ways for short (2 weeks for the RCAF, six weeks, each for the RCN and CA(R)) special to service recruit courses followed by extended Group 1 courses. We would still be the best trained troops in NATO but sailors, soldiers and airmen would reach ships, units and flight-lines in something like eight months rather than a year after joining.

Of course, as you and I both know, it all fell victim to a 'machine' that put integration ahead of everything else including sensible military standards.

My, very personal, opinion is that common, integrated training is a waste until CWO's course/senior staff college. It would, I suspect, be better and maybe even cheaper to let the RCN, CA and RCAF design and conduct their own recruit courses to meet their own needs. I doubt that in today's fiscal/resource climate we would see very much over-training.

(I, very personally, again, would love to see ALL of St Jean, including CMR, given away to the province of Quebec to provide education and training for immigrants. Do language training in Ottawa/Gatineau, ALL officers pass through RMC (Kingston) (even CFRs and those doing degrees at CivvyU) and recruits are trained in individual service schools, etc.)

A few months ago I stopped by a military display here in Ottawa and chatted with some soldiers from Petawawa. I was impressed with their bearing, knowledge, powers of expression and so on ... I think we have good, well trained people, today ... at least as good and you and i were in our day, even though they have had less formal training than we had 60 years ago. I believe it is possible for training to be efficient and effective, but it doesn't have to be integrated, at all.
 
If anything, it might be better if our own basic was 4 months similar to this: https://www.idf.il/en/minisites/soldiers-of-the-idf/from-civilian-to-soldier-the-combat-training-process/

Having a larger cross force pool of combat arms trained members would not be a bad thing. Infantry soldiers, who are specialists for a number of reasons but especially their bond in section levels after QL 3, are specialists whether anyone wants to go there as a discussion or not. But a larger force of proficient-at-arms and basic security and defence tactics ( manning a checkpoint, digging (!! 😀😀😀) and occupying a position, driving a truck, etc.), using the CarlG, etc. does not need to be restricted to just the army.



 
E.R. Campbell said:
There was some logic in the 1960s proposals ... I think even you and I might agree that our basic training (25ish weeks, as I recall, followed by basic (Group 1) infantry or artillery or signals, etc) skills traiing which could be another 25ish weeks for some skills) was expensive and, arguably, amounted to 'over-training.' We were, I think you will agree, the best trained soldiers in the West: better than our British confreres and massively superior in every single respect to the US Army. I think the same could be said for the Navy and the RCAF.

The notion was explained, at a Mess lunch table as I recall, of a common to all, short (eight week) recruit phase after which sailor, soldiers and airmen would all go their separate ways for short (2 weeks for the RCAF, six weeks, each for the RCN and CA(R)) special to service recruit courses followed by extended Group 1 courses. We would still be the best trained troops in NATO but sailors, soldiers and airmen would reach ships, units and flight-lines in something like eight months rather than a year after joining.

Of course, as you and I both know, it all fell victim to a 'machine' that put integration ahead of everything else including sensible military standards.

My, very personal, opinion is that common, integrated training is a waste until CWO's course/senior staff college. It would, I suspect, be better and maybe even cheaper to let the RCN, CA and RCAF design and conduct their own recruit courses to meet their own needs. I doubt that in today's fiscal/resource climate we would see very much over-training.

(I, very personally, again, would love to see ALL of St Jean, including CMR, given away to the province of Quebec to provide education and training for immigrants. Do language training in Ottawa/Gatineau, ALL officers pass through RMC (Kingston) (even CFRs and those doing degrees at CivvyU) and recruits are trained in individual service schools, etc.)

A few months ago I stopped by a military display here in Ottawa and chatted with some soldiers from Petawawa. I was impressed with their bearing, knowledge, powers of expression and so on ... I think we have good, well trained people, today ... at least as good and you and i were in our day, even though they have had less formal training than we had 60 years ago. I believe it is possible for training to be efficient and effective, but it doesn't have to be integrated, at all.


We face two problems with your proposal, first support trades that are 'purple", second the RCAF and RCN would drop anything field related in a heartbeat. When I went through BMQ in '01 I ended up shooting an extra mag of 5.56 because I would "never touch a weapon again".  Fast forward 6 years as I was "CC" in a Bison in Kandahar with a C6 that I had never actually fired before.

We either need to get serious about dividing troops by element, or we need to stick to a core training that emphasises "army" jobs training. Nobody should even be deployed to a war zone with weapons they have never used before, or even been exposed to beyond pre deployment training.
 
I have seen videos of the U.S basic training online and it seems very intense. A lot of screaming in your face. Do the Canadians do the same thing?
 
bigkruzzy said:
I have seen videos of the U.S basic training online and it seems very intense. A lot of screaming in your face. Do the Canadians do the same thing?

For reference to the discussion,

( US ) Basic Training/Boot Camp
https://www.military.com/topics/basic-training-boot-camp
 
Short answer: no

Long(er) answer: Not nearly as intense as some videos you've watched, though everybody's experience will be different and a lot of it will depend on your instructors.
 
bigkruzzy said:
I have seen videos of the U.S basic training online and it seems very intense. A lot of screaming in your face. Do the Canadians do the same thing?

It depends on the level of stupidity the candidate demonstrates?  ;D
 
Well, I had a 'buddy' during the FTX that came with me everywhere for the week in Granville.  Buddy was a 40lb sandbag.
 
Eye In The Sky said:
Well, I had a 'buddy' during the FTX that came with me everywhere for the week in Granville.  Buddy was a 40lb sandbag.

I'm just chiming in to say that is .... is..... awesome :)
 
Oh, it was awesome.  Our Trg Sgt was an Airborne Medic who loved to run.  Everywhere.  ;D

To add something back to the OP, though...yelling in your face isn't necessarily going to make thinks intense.  Minimal timings to complete things, strict imposed discipline, high standard to be met for things like kit, quarters, physical fitness, weapons handling, etc all combined appropriately make Basic intense if done properly.  Don't expect to see the first 20 minutes of Full Metal Jacket unfold at CFLRS or a Reserve BMQ course, though...
 
Eye In The Sky said:
Oh, it was awesome.  Our Trg Sgt was an Airborne Medic who loved to run.  Everywhere.  ;D

To add something back to the OP, though...yelling in your face isn't necessarily going to make thinks intense.  Minimal timings to complete things, strict imposed discipline, high standard to be met for things like kit, quarters, physical fitness, weapons handling, etc all combined appropriately make Basic intense if done properly.  Don't expect to see the first 20 minutes of Full Metal Jacket unfold at CFLRS or a Reserve BMQ course, though...
Agreed. Although Cornwallis in the 80's sure felt like Full Metal Jacket in some ways.  But hey, my father went through basic in the 50's.


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